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rlg94086
Guest
And may God bless you as well.
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suupah
Guest
Wow, you are such a great christian. your charity is extroardinary.
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KephasAugustine
Guest
Hey, suppah, I think you’ve got something in your eye…
Don’t forget your harsh response to rlg’s light hearted response (in which a good point was made). You have been nothing if not condescending towards those with whom you disagree. Remember your own Christian charity, friend, and remove your badly tempered words and anger before taking the speck of judgment out of your brother’s eye.
May God bless you abundantly.
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
Aren’t you stating a bit of a oxymoron here? Pharisees were those who were well taught in the law, they just failed to understand the the purpose behind the law in many cases and worhshiped form over actual substance. Those who are uneducated can hardly suffer from this since they are not knowledgeable in the law in the first place.
Also exactly what do you mean by “properly” educated? Is that some standard you define?
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mark_a
Guest
Sinners pretty much know we are sinners.
Religious righteous pretty much presume they are not.
I’ll hang with the sinners.
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rlg94086
Guest
I believe that is a pretty ugly generalization. The most “religious righteous” person I know is very humble and goes to confession weekly. I think many popes do the same. I certainly wouldn’t mind hangin’ with the pope.
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mark_a
Guest
I was using the term “religious righteous” in the way I understood it when I read the op.I believe that is a pretty ugly generalization. The most “religious righteous” person I know is very humble and goes to confession weekly. I think many popes do the same. I certainly wouldn’t mind hangin’ with the pope.
I could be wrong though.
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rlg94086
Guest
Oh…you aren’t “wrong” per se. You just used the same term he did which is inaccurate. He meant the “self-righteous.” However, since the “self-righteous” are also sinners, it is a strange comparison.
Now, given a choice of what sort of sinners to hang out with, I would definitely want to hang out with those who understand that we are all sinners and humbly do their best to repent.
One of the problems I have with the OP is…
It seems to make it sound like it would be a bad thing for someone’s faith to “delve deeply into theology, doctrine and history.” While there is risk of becoming self-righteous through those efforts, I’ve met plenty who are self-righteous *because *they haven’t bothered to “delve deeply into theology, doctrine and history.” In fact, in my experience, it is those people who are most likely to leave the faith and become a self-righteous, anti-Catholic Fundamentalist.
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mark_a
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suupah
Guest
yes, i believe you understood it the way i meant it.
Now can we please stick to the question as I meant it, Which i think could actually be a fruitful and interesting discussion.
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suupah
Guest
thank you kephas. Thanks for calling me friend and then promptly telling me that i lack charity and have a bad temper and need to remove the plank from my eye. Now can we please get back to the ill worded OP or should i start another thread being more careful with my phraseology?
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crenfro
Guest
depends on who’s closer to asking God for mercy and truly intends to amend their life permanently, I guess…
my two cents…
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Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
I personally think that a self righteous person is in worse danger than a non self righteous sinner. And I believe that because someone who is self righteous (and I believe that is the correct term for what the OP was referring to) has the possibility of pride working against him. It is more difficult for him to see the beam in his own eye than the sty in his neighbors eye. Yet, when I am in the state of sin, I am aware of it, and it is easier for me to acknowledge it, confess it, accept counsel, do penance, and change my ways. I believe that it is much more difficult for a self righteous person (i.e. pharisees, scribes, sadducees) to do so, because they didn’t want to admit they were wrong…for that would mean that they would have to be humble and change.
Self righteousness is, I think, more a matter of pride than anything else. And we should all know that pride is one of the deadliest of sins.
God bless you all,
Cherie
Self righteousness is, I think, more a matter of pride than anything else. And we should all know that pride is one of the deadliest of sins.
God bless you all,
Cherie
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Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
Wait a minute. We as Catholics do have the superior Faith…not necessarily the superior people in the Faith, though. We can trace our Faith all the way back to Jesus, and even further…to Abraham. The other Christian religions came from Catholicism, but chose to rebel against it for one reason or another. So, Catholicism is the superior religion, because it holds ALL of the Truths of Christ Jesus, not just some of them.
That being said, I am no more superior or inferior to any person than they are to me. God created all human beings in His image. He loves us all equal. I do not consider myself above any person in the whole world. And it is my job to serve them in a Christian way, treating them as my brothers.
Cherie
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Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
GraceDK #10 “Christ says: Die to your self. If you dont die to your self but clutch on to your self and who you are and how you are progressing… then you did not understand.” end quote
One day I hope to be a Bible scholar…but it is not today. Can you please tell me where in the Bible I can find this? It will help me more than you know, and I will much appreciate it.
God bless you,
Cherie
One day I hope to be a Bible scholar…but it is not today. Can you please tell me where in the Bible I can find this? It will help me more than you know, and I will much appreciate it.
God bless you,
Cherie
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Chancellare
Guest
Oxymoron? while we’re at it, try this one:
If education fails to make a pharisee, try ignorance. There are a lot educated ignoramuses out there.
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Fitswimmer
Guest
Excellent points!I remember hearing someone say that the greatest danger to Christianity in America today is Christians and I think that self-righteous, prideful type is exactly what they meant.
I know that in my own path to a more real Catholicism, I was drawn to those who simply lived their faith, and didn’t spend time telling others how they weren’t living it, or talking about how much better they were at being Catholic…they just WERE Catholic and lived exactly what they believed.
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rlg94086
Guest
Hi Cherie,
I agree with you with one added caveat - change to “non-self-righteous repentent sinner.” It may be a matter of semantics, but I know people who are “non-self-righteous sinners” that sin with little or no shame, don’t go to Confession, etc. If the self-righteous person is aware of their pridefulness and other sinfulness, and they confess on a regular basis, then I would say they are “better off” than the “non-self-righteous sinner” because he is at least trying to be faithful and confessing his sins.
Bottomline, we are all sinners, including the self-righteous. No sinner is “better off,” but I agree that self-righteousness (pride) is a difficult stumbling block for anyone. This includes the self-righteous who believe that they are much better off than the “sinners” and the sinners who think they are much better off than the “self-righteous.”
I am reminded of a great CD by Fr. Larry Richards on Confession (available for free at catholicity.com/cds/confession.html ). He brings up a confession he received once from a man who had paid for homosexual sex. He chastises the listeners not to think that they are better than this man. While some mortal sins are “worse” than others (punishment in hell, place in heaven…I’m not a biblical scholar, but I understand there may be a difference there), all mortal sin separates us from God. Therefore, the only sinner that is “better off,” is one who contritely confesses their sins, repents, and does their best to follow Christ.
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Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
Wouldn’t the self righteous sinner not accept his fault of being self righteous? I know many self righteous people, and when you even hint that they are seeming to be that way, they are more offended than…you don’t want me to say.
If a person who is “acting” in a self rightous way, and realizes and accepts he is behaving that way, and repents…then that makes him a “not” self rightous person. That just means that he, like I at times, gets caught up in a conversation or attitude. But if he, like me…most of the time…is humble enough to accept constructive criticism with thanksgiving that his fault has been brought to his attention…so that he may repent and change said fault…then that makes him just a sinner…not a self rightous sinner.
The pharisees were told exactly what they were doing wrong…and Jesus did it all with gentleness and love. Not all of the pharisees were against Jesus. There were Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. They truly wanted to know God’s Will and follow it, teaching it to others. They were knowledgable, but not self righteous. They had the same Jesus…the same words from Jesus…as the others. Yet, the others had the pride of self rightousness, the “I know it all, don’t try to correct me!” And they condemned Jesus. It is really a matter of pride…in my opinion. That is what self rightousness is. It is the unwillingness to accept your own infallibility on certain subjects. It is thinking that you are better than those who “should follow your words and your examples.”
HOWEVER, I believe that stubbornly holding on to the words of Jesus, and the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church is a good thing.
If I am arguing with someone who is trying to discredit the Bible, Jesus, or the Church and/or Her teachings…I sometimes act self righteously. I refuse to admit that what I believe in is wrong. However, they are not MY own words, or MY own examples. I am refusing to accept that anyone has a valid argument against what the Bible says, that God is All Powerful and can do what ever He wills, and that the Holy Roman Catholic Church is acting on the Will of God through the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit.
In my opinion, that is not self rightousness. That is acting on the beliefs of my faith. And anyone who comes on to the CAF, to debate the beliefs of Catholic Christians in order to try to discredit the Church or Jesus, is asking for people to stubbornly stand up and fight against their attacks on our Jesus, and our Faith. That we may act self rightously is a hazard, to be sure…but we have the Truth…which is not ourselves, but our Faith, and we have to defend it.
I am wondering if I am getting my point across. Anyone have a better way to say it? Much appreciated.
God bless you all,
Cherie
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GraceDK
Guest
Hey Cherie…
First off I wanna say I enjoy your posts on this thread.
About the quotes from the Bible. I have the Bible on my computer so I can find the verse numbers there. The verses are already in my head. My theory as well as sacred tradition teaches that if you read Sacred Scripture a lot you will, as you read, have the heart rythm of God within you because His Words become part of you and they transform you without your knowlege.
You dont need to be a Bible scolar, but I recommend you read through the New Testament a few times so that you can get a sense of the wholeness and also be ready to answer questions about our faith from atheists as well as from other Christians.
Dying to one self is the sum of these and more quotations from Scripture and its probably the hardest thing in a Christian’s life:
Matt 16: 24, Mark 8:34 , Luke 9: 23 all have the same words from Jesus where He urges His disciples…" The one who does not deny himself and take up his cross can not be my disciple".
John 12: 24: Jesus speaks of the seed that has to fall into the eath and die in order to come alive again and bear fruit. He speaks of Himself certainly… yet His command throughout the NT is that we imitate Him in all things.
1 Cor 15, 34 saint Paul says the deep words: “Everyday I die”. Here we have one of the greatest followers of Christ talking about the trials that come to every sincere follower of “the Way”.
Shalom sister in Christ
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