What is worse...religious righteous or sinners?

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

How did this become a debate between who is better or less on the road to heaven…the Tridentine Mass goers or the Ordinary Form Mass goers. Anyone who is judgemental of another person in this instance is self righteous in thinking that the other person is more judgemental then themselves, and therefore on the wrong path.

The graces recieved at Mass are directly affected by the holiness, faith and state of grace of the presiding priest. If he loves Jesus, and is faithful to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, the graces for the congregation will abound. That is irregardless of whether it is the Tridentine Mass or the OF.

I watch Fr. Corapi on EWTN. He presides over the OF. Yet, I believe that any Mass presided over by someone as close to Jesus and the Truth as he is, will be an empty vessel that Jesus will be able to fill up with more graces than could be imagined and recieved by the laity at that Mass through him as the presiding priest.

 

[rlg94086]

How did this become a debate between who is better or less on the road to heaven…the Tridentine Mass goers or the Ordinary Form Mass goers. Anyone who is judgemental of another person in this instance is self righteous in thinking that the other person is more judgemental then themselves, and therefore on the wrong path.

The graces recieved at Mass are directly affected by the holiness, faith and state of grace of the presiding priest. If he loves Jesus, and is faithful to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, the graces for the congregation will abound. That is irregardless of whether it is the Tridentine Mass or the OF.

I watch Fr. Corapi on EWTN. He presides over the OF. Yet, I believe that any Mass presided over by someone as close to Jesus and the Truth as he is, will be an empty vessel that Jesus will be able to fill up with more graces than could be imagined and recieved by the laity at that Mass through him as the presiding priest.

Actually, Fr. Corapi would probably be the first to tell you that isn’t true. The graces received at Mass are not dependant on the holiness of the priest. It is a blessing to have a good priest, but the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ is present at any valid Mass.

However, I agree with you that judging others as being more “self-righteous” or “worse off” is a serious problem.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I got to thinking today while discussing theology (soteriology) with a friend of mine who holds different views than I on the subject. We got to talking about who Jesus condemned. And the only people i could think of off the top of my head were the religious righteous.

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic in your faith. Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

“Before the Lord it is better to be a sinner with repentance than a righteous man with pride.” - St Macarius of Optina

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[rlg94086]

“Before the Lord it is better to be a sinner with repentance than a righteous man with pride.” - St Macarius of Optina

Yours in Christ
Joe

Very nice!

However, what about the repentant, humble, righteous man? :getholy:

 

[josephdaniel29]

However, what about the repentant, humble, righteous man? :getholy:

That is the ideal isn’t it. Unfortunately for you guys I’m about the only one who manages to do it.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[rlg94086]

That is the ideal isn’t it. Unfortunately for you guys I’m about the only one who manages to do it.

Yours in Christ
Joe

Sorry, Joe, but I know for a fact that I am the most humble person on this forum.

“Oh Lord, it’s hard to be humble, when you’re perfect in every way. I can’t wait to look in the mirror. I get better lookin’ each day.” - Mac Davis

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Actually, Fr. Corapi would probably be the first to tell you that isn’t true. The graces received at Mass are not dependant on the holiness of the priest. It is a blessing to have a good priest, but the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ is present at any valid Mass.

However, I agree with you that judging others as being more “self-righteous” or “worse off” is a serious problem.

I watched him today. He was talking about the priesthood. He said that a priest that wasn’t completely in the truth could still perform the Consecration, and that the Mass would be valid. But the graces given are not nearly what they are compared to when a priest who is completely in the truth performs the Consecration. The graces given are of varying degrees, dependent upon the “holiness of the priest.”

I saw it today.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

That is the ideal isn’t it. Unfortunately for you guys I’m about the only one who manages to do it.

Yours in Christ
Joe

I resent that. You are a huge sinner for saying that. We all know that I am going to deserve Heaven much more than any of you!!! LOL

 

[Pro_Domina]

Actually, Fr. Corapi would probably be the first to tell you that isn’t true. The graces received at Mass are not dependant on the holiness of the priest. It is a blessing to have a good priest, but the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ is present at any valid Mass.

However, I agree with you that judging others as being more “self-righteous” or “worse off” is a serious problem.

But theology is full of parenthesis.

Sure the mass is valid. Sure it is of infinite merit.
But the application of those merits depends on the principle of “Ex Opere Operandi”.

Saint Y validly celebrates as well as Father X.

But tell me that the graces are the same huh?

 

[rlg94086]

I watched him today. He was talking about the priesthood. He said that a priest that wasn’t completely in the truth could still perform the Consecration, and that the Mass would be valid. But the graces given are not nearly what they are compared to when a priest who is completely in the truth performs the Consecration. **The graces given are of varying degrees, dependent upon the “holiness of the priest.” **

I saw it today.

Fr. Corapi said that? I’m surprised. It seems contrary to what I understand about grace. Please provide some citations to Church teaching on the matter. I would be interested to understand this further.
Pro Domina:

But theology is full of parenthesis.

Sure the mass is valid. Sure it is of infinite merit.
But the application of those merits depends on the principle of “Ex Opere Operandi”.

Saint Y validly celebrates as well as Father X.

But tell me that the graces are the same huh?

So, what you, and Fr. Corapi apparentlly, are saying is that we should leave our parish and seek out the most holy priest we can find, so we can receive more graces?

Our priest was just moved to a parish 2-1/2 hours away. Christ did wonderful things through him, but he told us to embrace our new priest and always remember that every priest is acting in persona Christi.

 

[boppaid]

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

This question has me extremely confused. Aren’t we ALL sinners who fall short of the glory of God? Is not every one of us a sinner?

 

[boppaid]

I believe that is a pretty ugly generalization. The most “religious righteous” person I know is very humble and goes to confession weekly. I think many popes do the same. I certainly wouldn’t mind hangin’ with the pope.

Again, all are sinners…the “religious righteous” and everyone else.

 

[mercygate]

I think he was talking about people who are “holier than thou” and think they are so great.

Many “sinners” are also “holier than thou” because they call anybody who finds their lifestyle objectionable “hypocritical,” “self-righteous” and “judgmental.”

If you ask me (and the OP did): nobody’s “good” here. If you don’t KNOW you are a sinner, you godda BIG spiritual problem.

 

[rlg94086]

Again, all are sinners…the “religious righteous” and everyone else.

As I have stated multiple times in the thread.

 

[rlg94086]

But theology is full of parenthesis.

Sure the mass is valid. Sure it is of infinite merit.
But the application of those merits depends on the principle of “Ex Opere Operandi”.

Saint Y validly celebrates as well as Father X.

But tell me that the graces are the same huh?

Yes, the graces are the same…at least according to this Catholic resource. In fact, they even word it as “saint or a sinner.” (large font added by me for emphasis)
beginningcatholic.com/sacraments.html

**Proper dispositions **

A sacrament gives grace of and by itself, by its own power.
This is because Jesus attached grace to the outward sign, so to speak, so that that outward sign and grace always go together.
But our own attitude does matter. Our interior dispositions have an effect on the amount of grace we receive. The more perfect is our sorrow in the sacrament of Reconciliation, the more ardent our love in receiving the Holy Eucharist, the more lively our faith in receiving Confirmation—then the greater will be the grace we receive.

Our dispositions do not cause the grace; they simply remove the obstacles to the freer flow of grace and, in a sense, make more room for grace. We might illustrate this by saying that the more sand we empty out of the pail, the more water the pail will hold.

We can, of course, by a positive act of the will prevent the grace of the sacrament from entering our soul: for example, by positively not wanting to receive it or by not being truly repentant for mortal sin. But, unless we interpose an outright barrier, when we receive a sacrament we receive grace; the sacrament itself gives grace.

The dispositions of the one who administers the sacrament do not influence the effect of a sacrament. It would be very wrong for a priest to administer a sacrament if he had mortal sin on his soul, but it wouldn’t diminish the grace the sacrament gave one bit.

The person receiving the sacrament would receive the same amount of grace, regardless of whether the priest was a saint or a sinner. All that is required of the one who administers a sacrament is that:

• He have the power to give it (this means the power of the priesthood except for Baptism and Matrimony)
• He have the intention of administering the sacrament (the intention of doing what the Catholic Church intends)
• He perform the essential ceremonies of the sacrament (such as the pouring of the water and the saying of the words in Baptism).
  If you assume a receiver who does not put any obstacles to grace and a giver who is qualified to administer the sacrament—then always and infallibly a sacrament will confer grace.

 

[Pro_Domina]

That is not entirely accurate.

You feel a different grace when you go to mass in St. Peter’s than when you go to St. Square Garage Church.

You feel a difference with Fr. Hippie and Fr. Prays the Rosary.

There is a difference.

And then there is the recipients disposition.

If you kneel for 5 seconds and then sit versus spending a good 10 minutes in thanksgiving and asking, you will feel a difference.

Here is something pretty easily explained from another blog.

*"Ex Opere Operator means “by the work of the worker.” This refers to the way in which grace is received through the reception of Holy Communion in the Church. The grace is transferred first by the action of God, through the ministry of the priest. If the action is not initiated, there is no transfer of grace.

Ex Opere Operandi is the second part of the equation. It means “by the work of one being worked upon” In other words, God can do his part, but without reception of Holy Communion by a recipient who has done his/her work to prepare adequately for the reception of that grace, it is not transferred. Though God initiates the action, there is a co-responsibility by an individual to participate in God’s saving action, particularly in the reception of Holy Communion."*

 

[rlg94086]

That is not entirely accurate.

You feel a different grace when you go to mass in St. Peter’s than when you go to St. Square Garage Church.

You feel a difference with Fr. Hippie and Fr. Prays the Rosary.

There is a difference.

And then there is the recipients disposition.

If you kneel for 5 seconds and then sit versus spending a good 10 minutes in thanksgiving and asking, you will feel a difference.

Here is something pretty easily explained from another blog.

"Ex Opere Operator means “by the work of the worker.” This refers to the way in which grace is received through the reception of Holy Communion in the Church. The grace is transferred first by the action of God, through the ministry of the priest. If the action is not initiated, there is no transfer of grace.

Ex Opere Operandi is the second part of the equation. It means “by the work of one being worked upon” In other words, God can do his part, but without reception of Holy Communion by a recipient who has done his/her work to prepare adequately for the reception of that grace, it is not transferred. Though God initiates the action, there is a co-responsibility by an individual to participate in God’s saving action, particularly in the reception of Holy Communion."

I think I see what you are saying. As the resource I quoted states and you echoed from the other blog, the disposition of the receiver of grace (you and I) has an effect on the transfer of grace. As my resource stated, the holiness of the priest does not have an effect on the transfer of grace (and I think the blog you cited concurs).

However, I can see where an argument can be made that the reverence of the priest and liturgy can aid or hinder the penitent in their preparation to receive. IOW…my favorite priest, who introduced Gregorian chant, reverent silence and richer liturgy to our parish helps my disposition to receive grace more fully in communion. When I attended Mass recently with a youth band (guitars, drums, etc.), I found it more distracting and therefore difficult to prepare to receive those graces. Is that what you mean?

BTW…imho this still has no bearing on the holiness of the priest. A “reverent” priest could be just as great a sinner (e.g. in state of mortal sin while offering Mass) and/or just as grace-filled as a “hippie” priest. There would be no effect on the transfer of grace.

 

[peary]

I got to thinking today while discussing theology (soteriology) with a friend of mine who holds different views than I on the subject. We got to talking about who Jesus condemned. And the only people i could think of off the top of my head were the religious righteous.

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic in your faith. Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

In my experience, there seems to be two types of self-righteous people: the religious who think they are so much better than everybody else, and the sinner who flaunts his or her sin openly in the face of everyone else. Neither have the capacity for compassion, and neither have the capacity for humility. So, the answer seems to be neither are better off.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Fr. Corapi said that? I’m surprised. It seems contrary to what I understand about grace. Please provide some citations to Church teaching on the matter. I would be interested to understand this further.

So, what you, and Fr. Corapi apparentlly, are saying is that we should leave our parish and seek out the most holy priest we can find, so we can receive more graces?

Our priest was just moved to a parish 2-1/2 hours away. Christ did wonderful things through him, but he told us to embrace our new priest and always remember that every priest is acting in persona Christi.

I do not have the time, unfortunately to do this. However, the show was on EWTN at 12 Noon on Monday, August 28, 2008. Look it up on EWTN and ask how you can get a copy of the show. He explains it, as well as so many other things so very well…as I am sure you are aware.

By the priests fruits you will be able to see whether you should seek out another parish. I am not attacking ANY priest. EVERY priest needs our prayers. Father Corapi’s last words beseeched us to pray for them.
I am not going to tell you to leave the parish. You will be able to see for yourself whether this priest is living in and teaching the unbiased Truth of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit in the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic teachings. If he is not, just ask yourself, “Do I want to continue to be fed watered down truth, or the fullness of the Truth?” Then follow that. And pray for the priests…always.
I had to leave my home parish of 15 years or so when I realized there was an opportunity for me to be fed the Truth 20 minutes away. Sure, at my home parish I was recieving Jesus in the Eucharist, but I was not being fed the Truth of Jesus. I began to attend Mass at a church 20 minutes away, and I got the whole kitten kaboodle. Now, should I attend Mass at my home parish simply because it is my home parish, or should I go to where my soul is completely being fed, and pray for the priests of my home parish?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Again, all are sinners…the “religious righteous” and everyone else.

We are talking about the self rightous person who judges others. The one who tries to take the splinter out of the eye of his neighbor, but fails to see and/or deal with the 10 x 20 beam in his own eye.