What is worse...religious righteous or sinners?

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Many “sinners” are also “holier than thou” because they call anybody who finds their lifestyle objectionable “hypocritical,” “self-righteous” and “judgmental.”

If you ask me (and the OP did): nobody’s “good” here. If you don’t KNOW you are a sinner, you godda BIG spiritual problem.

well stated.

 

[Brian_Millar]

The sinner that flaunts it is considered cold, and in fact, this is an advantage over one that is deceiving themselves into thinking they are in the clear. Eventually the first type will realize the life they made for themselves not following what God wants for us is far worse off then if they followed him. Ever here the concept where they have to hit rock bottom before they realize the error’s of their ways?

One of the biggest mistakes made by the religious of any kind is how they still judge a book by it’s cover, having a pre-conceived thinking of an individual without ever getting to know them. They then fall into the category of being self rightous and it’s something I find utterly disturbing in what I’ve seen in modern clergy’s of all denominations including Catholics.

 

[rlg94086]

The sinner that flaunts it is considered cold, and in fact, this is an advantage over one that is deceiving themselves into thinking they are in the clear. Eventually the first type will realize the life they made for themselves not following what God wants for us is far worse off then if they followed him. Ever here the concept where they have to hit rock bottom before they realize the error’s of their ways?

One of the biggest mistakes made by the religious of any kind is how they still judge a book by it’s cover, having a pre-conceived thinking of an individual without ever getting to know them. They then fall into the category of being self rightous and it’s something I find utterly disturbing in what I’ve seen in modern clergy’s of all denominations including Catholics.

Perhaps you are just judging “a book by it’s cover, having a pre-conceived thinking of” modern clergy “without ever getting to know them.”

 

[Pro_Domina]

Well a sinner who flouts his sins sins again and is a pig because dirty laundry is washed at home, not at the neighbor’s.

The self-rightous are usually just as bad or worst.
Remember that there is a theologic-mathematic principle that where there is pride there is impurity.

Of the men that wanted to stone the sinner, which one of them did not actually sin with her?

Always always, pride accompanies impurity like fire and heat.

And impurity always takes people to Hell if they don’t radically change.

 

[TWilson121]

If you know you are doing the sin and even then continuing this -it is worse… that is what I feel!
It is basically subjected to your thought discrimination…

 

[Pro_Domina]

What?
I don’t understand what you are saying.
Who is “you” and what is “this”?

 

[Brian_Millar]

Perhaps you are just judging “a book by it’s cover, having a pre-conceived thinking of” modern clergy “without ever getting to know them.”

Ok, you asked for it, he he

I’ll fill you in on a few actions I’ve experienced by them, you tell me what their thoughts were…

During the Sign of Peace, this happened on two seperate occassions, I get one of the ushers could not be bothered to shake hands, he waves a peace sign at me instead in a state of mockery, on another, I get a grunt from him instead, he couldn’t be bothered with a genuine exchange. Then we had a mass where only one collection is taken, during the end of it I hear both of these ushers who happened to decide to do this right next to me bickering about not having a second collection, I even heard one utter some rather harsh words of discust in the process. Upon my first joining of mass, as I entered the Church, I made a simple jesture by simply saying hi, the usher that was also walking in just looked at me with distain and made no response what so ever.

Do you require I further elaborate what I’ve experienced, both in the Catholic mass as well as when I used to attend protestant services, or is this enough for you to understand?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Ok, you asked for it, he he

I’ll fill you in on a few actions I’ve experienced by them, you tell me what their thoughts were…

During the Sign of Peace, this happened on two seperate occassions, I get one of the ushers could not be bothered to shake hands, he waves a peace sign at me instead in a state of mockery, on another, I get a grunt from him instead, he couldn’t be bothered with a genuine exchange. Then we had a mass where only one collection is taken, during the end of it I hear both of these ushers who happened to decide to do this right next to me bickering about not having a second collection, I even heard one utter some rather harsh words of discust in the process. Upon my first joining of mass, as I entered the Church, I made a simple jesture by simply saying hi, the usher that was also walking in just looked at me with distain and made no response what so ever.

Do you require I further elaborate what I’ve experienced, both in the Catholic mass as well as when I used to attend protestant services, or is this enough for you to understand?

No. You do not need to elaborate further, and there is no excuse for rude behaviour. I do have a question though, which might prove my point in a couple of instances. I am wondering what you were wearing. As I said, it will not excuse the behaviour, just prove my point. In the church that I belong to, we try to welcome people of all walks of life. Example, a person who has been living under a bridge and looks like it…and maybe smells like it…should recieve every warmth and welcome gesture from the members of the Church. But we know that this is not always the case. Some self rightous people wouldn’t deign to give them the time of day except to scorn them. This, in my opinion, is a much worse sin than any committed by the man living under the bridge. He was trying to come to Jesus…but the self rightous scorned him and made him feel as though he didn’t belong because of his address.

 

[Pro_Domina]

No. You do not need to elaborate further, and there is no excuse for rude behaviour. I do have a question though, which might prove my point in a couple of instances. I am wondering what you were wearing. As I said, it will not excuse the behaviour, just prove my point. In the church that I belong to, we try to welcome people of all walks of life. Example, a person who has been living under a bridge and looks like it…and maybe smells like it…should recieve every warmth and welcome gesture from the members of the Church. But we know that this is not always the case. Some self rightous people wouldn’t deign to give them the time of day except to scorn them. This, in my opinion, is a much worse sin than any committed by the man living under the bridge. He was trying to come to Jesus…but the self rightous scorned him and made him feel as though he didn’t belong because of his address.

I am very sorry to tell you but if you smell like it then that person is not a very holy person.
The poorest of saints still preserve their dignity of a child of God somehow.

You can pray a million rosaries but if you come into a Church looking like a flip flop, you are not practicing the 1st and 5th commandment.

 

[rlg94086]

Ok, you asked for it, he he

I’ll fill you in on a few actions I’ve experienced by them, you tell me what their thoughts were…

During the Sign of Peace, this happened on two seperate occassions, I get one of the ushers could not be bothered to shake hands, he waves a peace sign at me instead in a state of mockery, on another, I get a grunt from him instead, he couldn’t be bothered with a genuine exchange. Then we had a mass where only one collection is taken, during the end of it I hear both of these ushers who happened to decide to do this right next to me bickering about not having a second collection, I even heard one utter some rather harsh words of discust in the process. Upon my first joining of mass, as I entered the Church, I made a simple jesture by simply saying hi, the usher that was also walking in just looked at me with distain and made no response what so ever.

Do you require I further elaborate what I’ve experienced, both in the Catholic mass as well as when I used to attend protestant services, or is this enough for you to understand?

When did ushers become “clergy?”

So, what you are saying is that these ushers are self-righteous because they are rude people? I don’t get it.

They may be lousy ushers, but I don’t know from your description that they think they are better than you. It sounds like a little bit of projection to me. Perhaps, you consider yourself to be more holy then they are and look down on them because of their rude behavior?

 

[rlg94086]

I am very sorry to tell you but if you smell like it then that person is not a very holy person.
The poorest of saints still preserve their dignity of a child of God somehow.

You can pray a million rosaries but if you come into a Church looking like a flip flop, you are not practicing the 1st and 5th commandment.

Okay…but, we should still love the person.

Certainly, it would be more charitable to embrace them (okay…depends on how stinky …er…emotionally embrace them ) and help them clean up their life. If they are coming into the Church, then the Holy Spirit more than likely led them there. Now, if they have mental and/or substance abuse problems (many disheveled homeless do…as opposed to the poor who dress their best, regardless of what “their best” is), they may need more and/or specialized help you can’t provide. At least, you should help get them moving in the right direction. Love is more likely to do that than condemnation.

We aren’t supposed to only welcome “holy people” into our Church.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I am very sorry to tell you but if you smell like it then that person is not a very holy person.
The poorest of saints still preserve their dignity of a child of God somehow.

You can pray a million rosaries but if you come into a Church looking like a flip flop, you are not practicing the 1st and 5th commandment.

I would like to know how Jesus would look at a person who is homeless, sick and in need of food, who has no place to shower. Does Jesus not call that person also? What if that person had a mortal sin on his soul? Would Jesus not rejoice for his coming to try to go to confession…even if he lacked the ability to take a shower?
Where does it say that people who are poor and are not able to take a shower are not deserving of the love and charity of our Jesus?
Where is your Christian charity? Would you go to the person, offer him a ride to your own home and offer him the use of your shower so that he could go to a Mass later that same day in clean clothes also given to him by you?

If not, then you have no right to look down on someone who because of unknown circumstances cannot afford to buy food or shelter…let alone a shower.
How could you turn him away? Jesus went to the lepers…and you can believe that rotting flesh smells horrible!!!

 

[Brian_Millar]

I would like to know how Jesus would look at a person who is homeless, sick and in need of food, who has no place to shower. Does Jesus not call that person also? What if that person had a mortal sin on his soul? Would Jesus not rejoice for his coming to try to go to confession…even if he lacked the ability to take a shower?
Where does it say that people who are poor and are not able to take a shower are not deserving of the love and charity of our Jesus?
Where is your Christian charity? Would you go to the person, offer him a ride to your own home and offer him the use of your shower so that he could go to a Mass later that same day in clean clothes also given to him by you?

If not, then you have no right to look down on someone who because of unknown circumstances cannot afford to buy food or shelter…let alone a shower.
How could you turn him away? Jesus went to the lepers…and you can believe that rotting flesh smells horrible!!!

GOD BLESS YOU FOR BEING HERE CHERIE!!!

 

[Pro_Domina]

I would like to know how Jesus would look at a person who is homeless, sick and in need of food, who has no place to shower. Does Jesus not call that person also? What if that person had a mortal sin on his soul? Would Jesus not rejoice for his coming to try to go to confession…even if he lacked the ability to take a shower?
Where does it say that people who are poor and are not able to take a shower are not deserving of the love and charity of our Jesus?
Where is your Christian charity? Would you go to the person, offer him a ride to your own home and offer him the use of your shower so that he could go to a Mass later that same day in clean clothes also given to him by you?

If not, then you have no right to look down on someone who because of unknown circumstances cannot afford to buy food or shelter…let alone a shower.
How could you turn him away? Jesus went to the lepers…and you can believe that rotting flesh smells horrible!!!

First of all, do constanyly treat the poor is a specific vocation which I do not have.
Second, I have spent ALOT of my time helping out the poor people that walk into the church. Most of the time all they want is money and you know they are bums because they want to. And I know this because I know were they live and what they do.

There are some homeless that still act with dignity and wash themselves as best as possible and still look more decent than others.

It is a grave misconception that the poor and homeless are excempt from cleanlyness.

Do you think the poor saints were like that?
What about solitary hermits? They do everything on their own with only God’s help (well only refering to God is more than enough).

I am not a communist influenced catholic who thinks the worst sin in the world is to eat a steak while there are poor kids in Africa. My vocation is not mendicant nor to take care of the poor, yet I still, as every Catholic should, do it often.
Our Lord instituted the 5th commandment for everyone. And that includes decent hygiene.

The poor will always exist. The rich will too.

Both are called to sanctity.

 

[KingAlfred]

I got to thinking today while discussing theology (soteriology) with a friend of mine who holds different views than I on the subject. We got to talking about who Jesus condemned. And the only people i could think of off the top of my head were the religious righteous.

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic in your faith. Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

The key is discipleship – the degree to which you live as Jesus lived. If that is your focus, you’re in good stead. It’s when we forget the mission of Christ to Man, and the way He accomplished that mission that we become self-righteous. A Christian who worships the Bible will fall prey to this condition. A Christian who worships his church, will also find himself in the same predicament. It’s a matter of staying focused on Christ, and imitating Him, as best we can.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

First of all, do constanyly treat the poor is a specific vocation which I do not have.
Second, I have spent ALOT of my time helping out the poor people that walk into the church. Most of the time all they want is money and you know they are bums because they want to. And I know this because I know were they live and what they do.

There are some homeless that still act with dignity and wash themselves as best as possible and still look more decent than others.

It is a grave misconception that the poor and homeless are excempt from cleanlyness.

Do you think the poor saints were like that?
What about solitary hermits? They do everything on their own with only God’s help (well only refering to God is more than enough).

I am not a communist influenced catholic who thinks the worst sin in the world is to eat a steak while there are poor kids in Africa. My vocation is not mendicant nor to take care of the poor, yet I still, as every Catholic should, do it often.
Our Lord instituted the 5th commandment for everyone. And that includes decent hygiene.

The poor will always exist. The rich will too.

Both are called to sanctity.

In the time of Jesus, there was the Jordan River, the Sea of Gallillee, and public wells. In downtown New Orleans, there is no public place to take a shower…and most people living under bridges are not there because they want to be. They are there because there is no where else for them to go. And I have seen a lot of poor people who come to the Church where I go. They also do their best to look as well as possible when going to Mass. But the lack of available Jordan River’s and Seas of Gallillee and publice showers hinders their ability to clean their clothing and complete bodies.
And those who are seeking God for the first time do not know the commandment that states…“THOU SHALL NOT COME TO ME UNLESS THOU SMELLEST GOOD!!!” Come to think of it, what Commandment does say that?

EVERY ONE needs compassion, the kindness of a Savior. You may not be called to work with the poor, but EVERYONE’s vocation is Charity…otherwise known as LOVE.

You can be sure that if I was homeless, I would attend Mass, and forget anyone who didn’t want me there. I belong as much as, if not more than (because of my need), anyone else does.

Jesus came to find the lost sheep. Many of them smell too after having been lost for so long that they are at rock bottom…and He rejoiced after they were found. He didn’t say that they had to look clean and smell good before He approached them.

All of us should remember well the following phrase: “But for the grace of God, there go I!”

Jesus gave us the Commandment, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” That goes for us treating the smelly homeless when they come to Church the same way we would want others to treat us if we were forced to be the smelly homeless in need of our Saviour.

 

[KenEOTE]

Neither is better off. The religious righteous or self-righteous are depending on themselves to get to heaven and are neglecting the Cross of Christ.

The Sinner is also neglecting the cross of Christ. Doing rather what they will.

I think that both are sinners, one however does not think himself a sinner and actually has much pride in his heart.

 

[Pro_Domina]

I have never seen a bum who is dirty and smelly and actually goes to mass everyday because I he would not be dirty and smelly for long.

I’ve only seen the “pious” bums who light a candle and leave and ask for money.

And did you know that you have a moral obligation to hide the shameful aspects of your life?

If you have a disguisting disease on your eye, for example,
you are morally obligated to show some shame and cover it up.

The same applies when you find yourself in a situation of pauperity.

 

[KenEOTE]

Pro Domina

That is interesting. I have never heard that. Where is that found.

I always was taught that when you step away from darkness and come into the light that you expose your sins and get forgivness.

We can then turn our failures into victory because we are not pretending to be something we are not. We are all fallen and sinful, and if we admit that we can help others who are still hiding in darkness and putting up a good front for others.

 

[Pro_Domina]

Pro Domina

That is interesting. I have never heard that. Where is that found.

I always was taught that when you step away from darkness and come into the light that you expose your sins and get forgivness.

We can then turn our failures into victory because we are not pretending to be something we are not. We are all fallen and sinful, and if we admit that we can help others who are still hiding in darkness and putting up a good front for others.

Ever heard of dirty laundry is washed at home?
Public confession is not allowed.

Though I am refering to shame in the religious sense.
Look up the word “pudor”. It means shame, though in English that word does not ring the bell in the religious sense.
The same as human respect.

Being a sinner and proud of it is not what I refer to.