What is wrong with this marriage?

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PennMan, Yes, I hope Kittery is doing everything she can to make her marriage the best it can be, but only she knows that. Saying that you want to have this type of marriage and commitment is one thing, but actually doing it, day in and day out, is/can be different. I am sure you know that from your own marriage.

“When he would come around and get in the mood, I would usually have to turn him down because it wasn’t the “safe” part of my cycle.” … Maybe their could be more creativity than “Just Say No”.

“But I don’t want to beg him to sleep with me. I want someone next to me who wants to be next to me. Not someone who’s next to me because that’s what a husband’s supposed to do.” … Hmmmm, Has a husband ever begged a wife to sleep with them and be romantic? Seems like a classic double standard.

This Kittery’s situation.

Let’s hear what she says, later today.
 
I too can speak from a man’s perspective. From what I have seen on this site, some women hammer any man who isn’t behaving exactly as they feel is appropriate with the giant “Porn” hammer. They seem unable to believe that a man would or could have nay other reasons for not feeling a great a desire to be intimage with his wife as he may have before.

It is quite possible to have events in your life that change the way you feel about intimacy. It seems like woman know that men are visually stimulated creates and assume that if we’re not interested in being with a woman it’s because we are not physicaly attracted to her. I can assure you there are hundreds of other possible reasons.

If he’s like most husbands, yours is attracted to you (or was, as it may be) because of the total-you, not just the physical you. Can you identify what has changed?

In my own case, I know that my emotional reaction to my wife’s life-changes (not menopause, the changes she initiated in her life that impact the two of us) have caused me to see her very differently. I once saw her as beautiful and attractive not just because of her looks, but because she was special. I’ll say she was on a pedestal for me, but in a good way. I desired her, not just her body. We’ve been married for a long time, but it wasn’t that long ago we were together five or six times a week. Now, we can go two or three weeks in between.

I used to pursue her daily with small acts, words and hints that I wanted her. Again, not her body, but her. I wanted that togetherness - although, let’s be honest, the physical is good too.

I no longer do that, not because I no longer love her, but because she has driven me so far away that I no longer posess the ability to chase her. She has not cheated on me, I have not cheated on her, neither one is hooked on porn. She has just made life altering decisions that affected both of us. We live together, but with seperate lives now. We still look like a model marriage from the outside, but there is no real intimacy within the marriage and that is reflected in the marriage bed.

It’s easy to blame a man and say he has abandoned interest in his wife because she no longer looks the way she did before all the children and years. It may be easier for some women to believe that he went to porn and left them rather than understand that he may yearn to be with her again, but she has changed in such a way as to make that impossible.

Jumping to the porn conclusion is often a lazy attempt at easy diagnosis, if you ask me. Then again, general man-bashing can be an art form here sometimes, so it doesn’t surprise me.

To the OP,
I am not saying that you have done any of these things. You have not posted anything that could give me a hint either way. Perhaps it is porn or another woman, that may well be the case. I’m just urging you to take a hard look at yourself too and see if there is anything you might have done to push your husband away. Are you too wrapped up in the children to see him as a man anymore? Do you express regrets about your life that make him feel like you are sad you made the choice to be with him? Do you demean him? Emotionally abuse him? Complain about his ability to make a living for you and your children? Compare him to your father? Again, these are not accusations, they are questions I think you might want to ponder.
 
PennMan, Yes, I hope Kittery is doing everything she can to make her marriage the best it can be, but only she knows that. Saying that you want to have this type of marriage and commitment is one thing, but actually doing it, day in and day out, is/can be different. I am sure you know that from your own marriage.
“When he would come around and get in the mood, I would usually have to turn him down because it wasn’t the “safe” part of my cycle.” … Maybe their could be more creativity than “Just Say No”.
Who’s to say that she isn’t? She did not elaborate on how she gave the news to her husband.
“But I don’t want to beg him to sleep with me. I want someone next to me who wants to be next to me. Not someone who’s next to me because that’s what a husband’s supposed to do.” … Hmmmm, Has a husband ever begged a wife to sleep with them and be romantic? Seems like a classic double standard.
It’s what every married (every person, actually) yearn for. Someone that wants you and wants to be with you. I know I have those feelings too and I have posted those needs and wants. Everyone yearns for that.
It shouldn’t be about begging. Sure we all beg our spouses for intimacy now and then, but if it becomes a standard, then there is a problem. I know that I got tired of begging my wife for sex. I started wanting her to come on to me for a change. I didn’t want to beg anymore, I wanted to know that she yearns for me like I do for her.

I can totally relate to Kittery’s situation and her posts.
What Kittery is doing is seeking help to make those feelings a reality. She is putting in her 100% Let’s hope her husband reciprocates.

It’s not always as clear-cut as it seems.
 
PennMan, It seems your situation is more closely related to GhostMan’s. Kittery has not been on-line since last night and does not say on the forum, one way or another about the specifics if she is the one actually being rejected. If you know something that is not on the forum, that’s fine, but let’s allow Kittery to speak and not speculate for her.
 
but let’s allow Kittery to speak and not speculate for her.
I agree.

With all respect, the first reason that I responded to your post is because it appears that you speculated for her, and it came across negatively.
We are all giving personal accounts to assit the OP, let’s not start implying things.

I agree, let her speak for herself and not put words in her mouth or imply that it is her fault untill she has given more info.

In Christ.
PM
 
What GostMan said.

PennMan, I did not mean to come across as negative or disrespectful just posing the question. I pray that challenging questions do not come across as unkind.

All His Blessings,
Tim E.
 
What GostMan said.

PennMan, I did not mean to come across as negative or disrespectful just posing the question. I pray that challenging questions do not come across as unkind.

All His Blessings,
Tim E.
👍 👍
 
Just makes me wonder - is NFP the easy target? Every marriage I know goes through ebbs and flows, times where the fire is blazing and times when there is just a teeny ember - having children many times changes a woman’s libido, she is exhausted, she has hormoanal changes. Men too, believe it or not, do not always have raging passions, age, stress, - all these things are the reasons that those wise people warn to have more than passion and desire as the foundation for a marriage.

Maybe your marriage, like most marriages, would go through this period if you were using every form of ABC in the book.

TV talk shows and magazines and all the culture lead us to believe that a happy marriage is romance and passion every day. The most solid marriages I know are those where there is not an expectation that it will be midnight at the oasis every day of every year, or even every week of every year.

Maybe NFP has nothing whatsoever to do with it, it is simply the easiset to blame 🤷
 
Just makes me wonder - is NFP the easy target? …
Maybe NFP has nothing whatsoever to do with it, it is simply the easiset to blame 🤷
I have to disagree.

It took me sooo long to figure out the cause and it most certainly is NFP. It’s the root cause of lack of intimacy from us.

All the signs and the evidence point to it. It’s not a point I got to easily, it literally took years.

I’m also not the only one on here that will tell you that they have had problems with NFP.
Some folks have all the luck with it, good for them, but it’s not the perfect system that some folks make it out to be.

It’s most certainly, 100%, the cause of our intimacy problems, and my wife agrees.
 
A man, husband, father gets up every day without complaining, about sleep, ailments or their feeeeeeeeelings and does things almost automatically. If you want to be single and childless then go for it. If you want to be married then make that a priority and don’t just give your marriage the left over time from the day. Yet there are exceptions too, like school or being out of town on business, etc.
TIME,

What exactly do you mean by this? It sounds like you’re mocking the fact that women are more inclined to allow their “feeeeeeeeeeeelings” to factor into their actions. Maybe I’m misreading??? I do believe I make my marriage a priority. I wouldn’t be here asking for help if I didn’t. I wouldn’t be paying attention to all of the cues that are telling me something’s wrong with our marriage.

And, to clarify, I don’t subscribe to the “Just Say No” policy during the “unsafe” times. I enjoyed his advances very much, but would have to let him know that as much as I would like to go there, now wasn’t the time for us.

And when I said that “I don’t want to beg him to sleep with me”, I was talking about “in the same room”. Not sex. At the very least I want him in my bed, not in the other room. But I can’t get him to do that right now. He is choosing to look at porn. I know this for a fact now. He does it when I’m not home. I’m very sad about this and nervous to talk to him about it. I don’t want to embarrass him or condescend. I love him and I love what I know our marriage can be.
 
PM,

I don’t mind anything you have said on my behalf. I wouldn’t call it speculation at all, because I think that you truly understand where I’m coming from, and it’s a blessing to have a board like this where people can find support when trying to make sense of things. You’ve taken a patient and diligent journey, and I am glad you shared your story with us. It sounds like it’s been a long road that you’re still traveling.

I too converted about 4 years ago, while my husband is a cradle catholic. We do not agree about the effects of NFP. It’s what the church calls for and he doesn’t question it because of that. I on the other hand wonder if this is really God’s intention. I do not believe that chemicals and intrauterine devices are God’s intention either. But condoms or other ways to give each other sexual pleasure outside of intercourse? I know the church doctrine, the theology, the Christopher West writings. I’ve looked at this really hard. And in my heart of hearts, I wonder if God really wants it this way.

I know that I could just say, “forget NFP, we’ll see what happens and accept all the children that come along”. But emotionally, I’m not prepared for that right now. We’re not closed to having more children, just not yet.

So, yes I’m being very honest about my feelings. I want my marriage to be beautiful again. And someone asked what has changed in me to maybe exacerbate these issues. And I would say that after two back to back kids, I’m tired and spread thin. In love with my family, yes. But tired. And very gun-shy about having more at the moment which makes sex with NFP pretty scary.

Thank you for all of this conversation. It has really been helping me just have an outlet. 🙂
 
Just makes me wonder - is NFP the easy target?

Maybe your marriage, like most marriages, would go through this period if you were using every form of ABC in the book.

Maybe NFP has nothing whatsoever to do with it, it is simply the easiset to blame 🤷
Kage AR,

Just as it is so hard for me to understand how NFP works great for some couples, I think that it can be difficult for those who love NFP to put themselves in the shoes of someone struggling with it. I am seeing the root of our issues in NFP. It has complicated things, it hasn’t opened up our marriage to expression of love in it’s purist form. Like PM eluded to, NFP is so exacting and technical that it can easily turn one’s focus into how “not to conceive”. My body had become a chart. We’ve got to check the chart. Never mind that I felt like it a week ago, but now that it’s safe we’re going to be intimate even though I’m not that into it. Unitive aspect goes out the window, robotic aspect ushered in. As harsh and cynical as that may seem, it’s my truth right now. Talk about performance anxiety.

I agree that a marriage needs much more than passion and romance as it’s foundation. But you can’t make yummy cookies without a little sugar.😉
 
Kage AR,

Just as it is so hard for me to understand how NFP works great for some couples, I think that it can be difficult for those who love NFP to put themselves in the shoes of someone struggling with it. I am seeing the root of our issues in NFP. It has complicated things, it hasn’t opened up our marriage to expression of love in it’s purist form. Like PM eluded to, NFP is so exacting and technical that it can easily turn one’s focus into how “not to conceive”. My body had become a chart. We’ve got to check the chart. Never mind that I felt like it a week ago, but now that it’s safe we’re going to be intimate even though I’m not that into it. Unitive aspect goes out the window, robotic aspect ushered in. As harsh and cynical as that may seem, it’s my truth right now. Talk about performance anxiety.

I agree that a marriage needs much more than passion and romance as it’s foundation. But you can’t make yummy cookies without a little sugar.😉
Kittery (& PM),

I just wanted to let you know, from the perspective of someone likely 20 or so years older than you, that my husband and I experienced much of the ambivalence towards NFP that you have. We used it, both to conceive and postpone, for many years; dh never totally accepted the limits it put on frequency. It was, in fact, the major source of conflict in our marriage.

Although I accept the theology behind NFP, having to say “no” when I was most interested made me very angry, and feeling compelled to be intimate when it was “safe” and I didn’t feel much like it added to that. There is no doubt that it was a source of conflict and often caused my husband to feel rejected.

I know it works well for many couples, and, though charting, postpartum was dicey, for the most part it worked well, technically, for us. But I cannot honestly say it was a happy experience. I used to joke that if the Church ever relaxed the rules to allow barrier methods, no Church hierarchy better cross my path!

God mercifully sent menopause about a decade early, (43) and things have been much better the last 12 years. Please know that there are plenty of us who understand and are praying for you.
 
The fact that you and your husband do not share the same faith does make it different. After I converted, it was years before DH followed me. I can honestly say, had he not converted, we would not be married today. I have carried the cross you have for afew years, and will pray for you every day.

The fact that he is willing to try NFP when he does not believe in the Church says something good about your DH.

Just a question - have you done research into the historical facts about marriage and sexual relations? Do you know how those married couples in “Bible times” lived?

I’m a history buff, and when I did this research, my POV changed. I too was once a young married person who thought if we did not make love at least X times per week, that it was the source of the difficulties in the marriage.

I know I will not change the prevelant thought. But, maybe, just maybe, you would still feel too tired and not in the mood if you were taking chemicals. Maybe your husband would still feel rejected if you were worried about a condom.
 
The fact that you and your husband do not share the same faith does make it different.
She said her husband is a cradle Catholic and she is a convert to Catholicism. It would seem they do share the same faith. ???

I too am an NFP struggler…but no time to post now… I’ll be back later.
 
Kittery,

“I agree that a marriage needs much more than passion and romance as it’s foundation. But you can’t make yummy cookies without a little sugar.”…That a girl!!

“What exactly do you mean by this? It sounds like you’re mocking the fact that women are more inclined to allow their “feeeeeeeeeeeelings” to factor into their actions. Maybe I’m misreading???”…

NOT mocking at all. See my post above to PennMan…“PennMan, I did not mean to come across as negative or disrespectful just posing the question. I pray that challenging questions do not come across as unkind.”

Besides, I have a house full of girls and a wife, we have elementary school girls, highschool girls and a college girl. I have no sons. Our house is also the gathering spot for the Halloween party’s, the “get dressed and dinner house” before Fri. night football games. The get ready for Homecoming Dance, house. The, all girls Christmas Exchange party’s, the “there’s nothing to do, so let’s go over and have pizza and hang out house”. Even the Mom’s come over, to help and they stay, after the daughters leave and they breakout the “Cosmopolitans” to relax on the weekends(I not sure how this happens). So I am well adapted at being surrounded by women and their feeeeeeeeelings, and the moods and the hormones… from 5 to 50.

So far I have lived to tell about it. So if anyone tries to tell you our Lord does not have a sense of humor I can tell you that is false. Because any God that would make one man responsible for this many women and no way out, has got a sense of humor.👍
 
Another great CA thread. Seriously.

I’m not a youngster any more; I have lived most of the issues discussed here and have had a few years to reflect on them. IMO, we are spoiled and suffocated by this idea that we have the right, the biological need, to have sex, as often and as exciting as we want. I do not need to expound on this. NFP is not the problem. NFP just has the appearance of a lousy compromise in a world where we are bombarded with the idea of recreational sex as the alpha and omega. It’s just that simple.

If previous generations could see us now, what would they say about us? Those living 200 years ago? 100 years? Even 50? Those generations that paved the way for us today would look honestly at us as if we were the stupidest people to ever inhabit the earth; that we didn’t seem to know what sex - and more importantly, marriage - was for.

Again, it’s just that simple. God help us all.

-Tim
 
I think sometimes people say things like, “I dont want someone in bed with me that doesnt want to be there” instead of getting defencive just let him know how you feel. Say that you miss him and want him sleeping in your bed. If he says he doesnt want to then you know that for sure. But just because he is sleeping in another room doesnt mean he isnt laying there wishing he was in his own bed next to you. Let yourself be vunrable, its ok.

One thing i learned recently about NFP is its not ment to postpone pregnancy forever. When my husband and I were going through something similar and getting really frustrated with NFP we realized God was calling us to stop using it and let him be in control completely. When we have a desire to be with our husbands i think that is God working in our marriage and we have to respect that. I know sometimes its hard to think you can handle another child but if thats what God wants for us then he will only amp up the desire in your sex life. If you deny it and blame all your problems on NFP you will only be getting farther away from Gods will for your life.
 
The fact that you and your husband do not share the same faith does make it different. After I converted, it was years before DH followed me. I can honestly say, had he not converted, we would not be married today. I have carried the cross you have for afew years, and will pray for you every day.

The fact that he is willing to try NFP when he does not believe in the Church says something good about your DH.

Just a question - have you done research into the historical facts about marriage and sexual relations? Do you know how those married couples in “Bible times” lived?

I’m a history buff, and when I did this research, my POV changed. I too was once a young married person who thought if we did not make love at least X times per week, that it was the source of the difficulties in the marriage.

I know I will not change the prevelant thought. But, maybe, just maybe, you would still feel too tired and not in the mood if you were taking chemicals. Maybe your husband would still feel rejected if you were worried about a condom.
I understood the OP to say just the opposite - that as a cradle Catholic, her DH accepts the Church’s position on ABC without question, but that she (the OP) has her doubts. I understood her, in a very nuanced way, to say that although they are using NFP only, she wonders whether non-abortificent ABC is really so sinful, especially when NFP seems to be having such a negative effect on her marriage.

Maybe I got it wrong? 🤷
 
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