What is wrong with this marriage?

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Tweety Bird: You got it exactly right. My husband is a cradle catholic and I’m a convert of 4 years. Thank you for your understanding and prayers. NFP has been a rough and sometimes very lonely road.

And I totally know what Dixie means when she says that, “I used to joke that if the Church ever relaxed the rules to allow barrier methods, no Church hierarchy better cross my path!” I feel like I’m living my life in a conflicted and discontented state, and if it ends up being “ok” to use barrier methods someday, I would feel cheated out of a piece of my marriage.

Kage AR, I haven’t ever said that I think a couple needs to do it “X” number of times to have a great marriage. And I have no desire to use chemical or abortifacient means to ABC. I am saying that at the moment I have a practically non-existent and surely a non-consistent sex life that I’m not pleased with.

TIME, God bless you for living in a hive of girly hormones! My grandmother was a mom of five boys, so the reverse of your situation but boy did she earn her wings here on earth! Thank you for your candidness!😛

So, as of now I haven’t approached DH about the porn. I know it may sound silly, but I’m scared to do it.😊
 
Kittery, You have gotten some very solid advise here on your post. You seem to be doing everything you Humanly can do.

“So, as of now I haven’t approached DH about the porn. I know it may sound silly, but I’m scared to do it.”

If you directly confront him now, would this bring him closer? I am not saying to sweep this under the rug, just try another strategy for a week or two.

Many of the posters have suggested praying. November is a All Saints Month(even if October has Passed) and a great time to say the Rosary as we approach Thanksgiving and Advent. Praying the Rosary, preferably together, but if not, pray by yourself at first.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit has temporally lifted His Hand of Grace so you might realize how important Jesus is to you and your family, so pray even more for His Graces. Believing that with each Our Father and Hail Mary, the Holy Spirit is covering you, your husband and marriage with His Graces. Asking our Lord for a stronger and more Blessed marriage from the Spiritual relationship to the physical relationship is not some trivial request. Remember what was said earlier.

“At the Divine Level, Marriage is a gift from our Lord. The Church made Holy Matrimony a Sacrament continuing to make Marriage a Sacred gift from God. Human Sexuality is also part of that sacred gift from God, as a major part of Marriage.”

At the humane level one of the foundations of NFP is that you both are involved daily. Plan things out a little bit. When you both now when that window of opportunity is open, make the commitment to relish those intimate and special times, not throw them away like yesterday’s newspaper. If you are tiered a lot figure out a way to get some rest for that special time(s). If you get headaches use your nursing skills to figure out if your eating something that triggers them. Ask the Holy Spirit to lift you up, past any tiredness, headaches, etc. and ask that your husband be lifted up past any inernet porn or anything else that keeps both of you from fully giving and embracing each other and your Sacred marriage.
 
Kittery,

I really feel for you. I doubt that this was really your idea of an ideal marriage. For that matter, if you ask your husband, I don’t think his ideal was sleeping with kids, and looking at porn sites. I guess if he always wanted to spend the night in the family bed, then maybe that might really be what he wants, but I doubt it, at least in this culture. Unfortunately it seems you both aren’t feeling very intimate with the other, don’t like how things are going, and don’t feel you can talk about it.

There really is only one way to go, and that is to talk about it. How to initiate it is a tricky thing. I suppose if you really want to freak him out, tell him before one of you leaves in the morning, “we need to talk, let’s do it after the kids are in bed.” I suppose maybe maybe you could try a date night or two to try to reconnect. Maybe to initiate it, you could focus on things you don’t like that you see yourself doing, and open it up to him saying you don’t like the way either of seem to feel not very intimate.

I am sure the last thing you want to do is to make him feel as if he is being ambushed. I don’t think he wants to feel as if your keeping score about the things he’s doing wrong. Really I am sure what you want is just for him to stop. It seems as if the whole marriage is just spiralling down, maybe not down the drain, but to a point where you have no intimate connection, a partnership to raise the kids, but not exactly for each other. There needs to be a reconnection to help send it spirialling back up.

Maybe if none of that works, counciling might be good. At least there you can have a mediator to set some rules, so there can be some trust that one isn’t out to injure the other, but is meant to keep the relationship moving. I always thought for myself it might be good to actually set an exact time and date to have a reassesing of the direction of the marriage. Atleast for me, when and if, I am married, that would suit me, I like a set methodology to what I do. Hopefully things could get defused, before they would blow up. We could throw out ideas, in a way that might seem more like suggestions than outright rebukes said at a crisis point.

As far as NFP, while that might seem like a bad subject to bring up the cons on this forum, given the stance on ABC, it is what it is. It might be a good thing for you both to bring out what you don’t like about it. Look at it this way, NFP is a good thing, but kids are a good thing too, that doesn’t take away that kids make huge problems. In the end, what is special about your kids by far outpaces the problems, and doing things the right way, is better than the wrong. If you talk about the problems, you can better find solutions, even if that means it brings you closer intimately, as it is a cross you both need to bear. That is especially if it brings your closer together intimately.

Still though, even if NFP wasn’t a problem, a young couple such as yourself have so many demands, there will always be problems. Any relationships brings their problems and demand work; a relationship as intimate as you two have this is so in the extreme. If it’s not NFP, it would be something else. Shoot I am sure there are three or four other smaller problems also on the table right now.

Look you both love each other. You both want to be good parents together. You both want to be intimate. He needs you to be there to help him though his problems; you need him to be there to help you through your problems. He wants to be there for you; you want to be there for him. Goodness, your sitting there with low self esteem because he is looking at porn; he would be infinitely more happy feeling that there was an intimate connection with you than with his porn. Give us a big smile, your situation is so bright. Do what you have to do: go to counseling, go find a book to structure a talk, find a Church program, or just go and try to have a talk. If you worry about the talk, go to confession. It is always so much anxiety before you say your first sin, but once it’s over it feels great. The conversation should follow much the same path. I’ll be praying for you and your family.
 
Kittery when you really want him tell him it is his special time and go over to him and tell him he is your tiger and tell him you like his growl and tell him you want to hear his growl and after that is up to you, only but don’t look at porn. At that point don’t turn him down, if he porpositions you give him a date and time and stick to it unless you are fertile. Use signals like put on a special perfume for that night and only use this perfume etc. I’m sure you can think of other stuff. A friend of mine gave me these little tips.
Happyness to you both I know you want him to be happy and your marriage to saty solid I’ll pray for you.
D.
 
jman,

Thank you for you kind and understanding post. I do need to take action; the complacency that has set in is difficult to overcome. I do realize that I need to spend more time in prayer, and I think I should do a Holy Family Novena.

And you’re assessment is right on: we do need a reconnection. Most days, I feel as if we have exactly what you stated- “a partnership to raise the kids.” I think that our kids are heavenly little gumdrops- I love them so much that it hurts sometimes. And as difficult as our marriage seems right now, I can’t imagine not having daddy here for our kids. But I need more than just being under the same roof with my husband. I need a spiritual, emotional, and physical connection with him that is thriving instead of withering. I find myself looking at happy couples like I did back when I was single- with a bittersweet longing. That’s not a good sign.

I have tried to get him back into bed with me this weekend. I told him that I missed him and I wanted him to “move back in with me for good”. The first night he came in after he woke up as I was changing DD’s diaper. But once we were snuggled up together, I told him how nice it was to cuddle with him and asked him why he’s been choosing to sleep in the other room. He said that it’s because he likes the other bed better. (there’s a whole 'nother story behind this, but long story short: he picked out our new king mattress, once it was delivered he said he couldn’t sleep on it. we went back and exchanged it for another mattress which he picked out too and that he said was much more suitable for him. so it’s hard for me to swallow the “uncomfortable mattress” pill when it’s what he picked out and spent a fortune on.)

How many of you men would trade in your sex lives for a 10-year old “more comfortable” mattress??? He got very defensive and abrasive with me when I prodded a little more. He ended back in the other room. :confused: Was this a bad approach?

Thank you to everyone for your uplifting and encouraging posts. Thank you for your listening ears and all of your prayers. :grouphug:
I have had a lot of good advice and a lot of thought provocation come from being in touch with all of you. 👍
 
Kittery, sounds like a step forward, but…
“long story short: he picked out our new king mattress, once it was delivered he said he couldn’t sleep on it. we went back and exchanged it for another mattress which he picked out too and that he said was much more suitable for him. so it’s hard for me to swallow the “uncomfortable mattress” pill when it’s what he picked out and spent a fortune on.)”

Are you saying he picked out two king size mattresses? Was the second one comfortable to him? Does he sleep on it, now at all?

By the way, was you Grandmother’s house still standing after she raise your Dad and four Uncles?:eek:
 
TIME,

Yes, I’m saying he picked out two king-sized mattresses. This was over the summer while we were making the transition of moving the kids into their own room so that we could “reclaim our marriage bed”. That didn’t work.

So when he said it was uncomfortable, I went ahead and arranged for an exchange, and we went and picked it out together and I let him make the final decision. When the second one arrived, he declared it “much better” than the first one. But I guess that it’s not better enough because I think he may have slept 3 or 4 half-nights on it so far. We got the first new one the very first of September and he’s been in with the kids in the other room ever since. Sigh.

And to answer your question about my grandmother’s house… She kept her house standing with a broom…😉

Yep, she would always chase the boys down with a broom when they misbehaved. Not only did she survive those years, but she went on to be a Den Mother for a men’s co-op at a state university. She never wanted to stop being the mother hen. The college guys adored her. Many of them attended her funeral, which was a touching tribute to her life all by itself.:angel1:
 
Kittery, If you are making a consistent and repeated effort to bring him and the marriage closer, it does seem odd. No rational, loving man of sound mind and body would turn away a consistently sweet, loving and giving wife.

“How many of you men would trade in your sex lives for a 10-year old “more comfortable” mattress??? He got very defensive and abrasive with me when I prodded a little more. He ended back in the other room. Was this a bad approach?”

If you have established that the mattress is comfortable for him. Then just ask in general what is bugging him. Just ask nicely “What is keeping you out of our bed?” If he does not open up I would let it go for a little while. My sweet wifeypoo, hates it when I remind her, “not to curb the tires on the car”, “load the dishwasher properly”, “clean up the bathroom counter after she is finished”. She calls this badgering, I call it taking care of things. But sometimes you have to “Let it Go” to move past those marital sticking points.

Try again to get him back, maybe he just needs that one time to see what he has been missing.:love:
 
Oh, this communication thing can be so hard. I see where I went wrong. The way you posed asking, “What has been keeping you out of our bed?”, is so different from my prodding of, “Why have you been sleeping in the other room?” Your way communicates that I am opening a forum in which he can share his thoughts instead of a courtroom where he is being judged. I’m going to take this new approach you’ve offered. Thanks!👍
 
Let me project a guy’s opinion again. This is just all my speculation, remember.

So, you believe that NFP is at the heart of the matter. When want to be together, you can’t. When you can be together, you - as the tired mother of small children - are not all that interested. Sure, you’ll “do your duty” if asked, but not a lot more. It’s not criticism, just trying to get the picture straight.

So let’s assume your husband loves you. He’s a normal guy who likes sex. He’s not a pervert or addicted to porn. He’s just a guy who’s trying to figure out how to master his own urges and still be a decent husband.

He might feel like a real jerk for his own feelings. He wants you and resents that those times when you might want him back, you’re barred from coming together. He sees that you are frightened, maybe even more, over the prospect of being pregnant again, so you react by being extra safe. Your body has turned from something he desires to a chemical machine that dictates when things can happen. There’s no spontaniety, no taking advantage of those moments when things might develop on their own. Just a clock: today, fine, tomorrow forbidden.

So the unitive aspects of sex go right out the window. He’s left with the choice of taking what he can get when he can get it, then gnashing his teeth when the hormones tell him you want him. Sex beomes a momentary pleasure, followed by self-loathing as he believes that he has just used you for himself. Even if you tell him that you are willing to help him, he still hates himself because he knows what sex has been and knows it is not that way now. You might be more than happy to bless him even when you are not all that in the mood, but he knows that is all it is. The pleasure of the moment does not cover for the guilt of the rest of the time. He wants to see you getting something too. Maybe if he tries to say no on those times, you get upset and tell him you feel rejected. You are offering a gift and don’t understand why he is rejecting it. The only answer you can come up with is he no longer desires you. He is left frustrated - he would love to take your offer, but he knows he’ll hate himself afterwards. He knows you are upset too. So, next time he takes you up. After a (very) brief time, it’s over. You did not enjoy it, he did, but not even close to what it used to be like. It was OK, but now he feels so guilty he’d like to punish himself. He hates what he’s become.

He is in a no-win situation. Either he takes you up on it and spends the rest of his time loathing the monster he pictures in his head - the monster he is certain that you see too. Or, he rejects your offer - freely given as a gift to your husband in spite of your own tiredness and lack of interest. There is no good outcome.

He sees that maybe moving into another bed is the answer. There, he is away from you and the smell of your hair, the touch of your skin, the soft whisper of your breath as it escapes your lips as you sleep. The moonlight on your skin is no longer a blessing, it is now a curse. The softness of your body against his is a torture now. His only escape is to escape. That, or find himself unable to stay away from the easy release of porn and self-gratiification. Again, these are things he loathes and tries to keep away from. Sometimes, though, the frustrations overwhelm him. He wants to be with you, but cannot. It is easier to be far from you at night and live as man and wife the rest of the time.

He hates what his life has become and cannot tell you because you may blame yourself or cry or, worst of all, mock him somehow. His ego is so fragile now that the slightest thing is taken as a giant billboard telling the world he has failed as a husband and a man.

You cry yourself to sleep. He escapes into memories of what it was like before. He remembers, and weeps inside. All he wants is the woman he loves, but he sees no way to explain himself. So, he goes silent, He pretends. He waits praying at first that it might change, then he prays for forgetfulness.
 
Well GhostMan,

I cannot speak for Kittery’s husband of course, but it does kinda feel like you just had a peek into my soul here…very creepy. 😉

I could have written those words about myself, if I had the means to express myself thusly.

Thank you.

These days I would end that piece by saying that I pray for acceptance and the will not to stumble.

And to Kittery, well done on starting the communication.

It will take time, it took quite a while for us to even get a good conversation in.

It’s such a sore subject that most of the times it ends in argument or I just dropped it because I saw it was leading to one, but perseverence and loving encouragement will prevail.

I will continue to pray for you and your marriage.
 
Another great CA thread. Seriously.
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I’m not a youngster any more; I have lived most of the issues discussed here and have had a few years to reflect on them. IMO, we are spoiled and suffocated by this idea that we have the right, the biological need, to have sex, as often and as exciting as we want. I do not need to expound on this. NFP is not the problem. NFP just has the appearance of a lousy compromise in a world where we are bombarded with the idea of recreational sex as the alpha and omega. It’s just that simple.
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The folks here are not “of the world” Tim. We are married folk striving to live a good Catholic life, and be the best spouse we can be and have the best marriages we can have.

I couldn’t care 2 cents what the outside world says about sex. I know how they portray it. What they are portraying is filth. I have no desire to run my marriage like that. I base my marriage on Catholic teachings.
And if I, as a Catholic strive to have a perfect marriage, then my sex life needs to be unitive and procreative. Now, a lot of us here have been evaluating signs in our marriages where there is a definitive lack of intimacy. And I’m not only talking about frequency…that’s too trivial. Besides, the frequency I think is normal might be different than another’s.
The signs are that there are no feelings of being husband and wife any more. The love is lacking, the intimacy is lacking, people talk about a “partnership of raising kids”, as opposed to a marriage. These signs have caused us to evaluate our marriages, and independently, we have all come to the conclusion that NFP was the key factor in that.

It’s not an excuse, it’s the root cause.
If previous generations could see us now, what would they say about us? Those living 200 years ago? 100 years? Even 50? Those generations that paved the way for us today would look honestly at us as if we were the stupidest people to ever inhabit the earth; that we didn’t seem to know what sex - and more importantly, marriage - was for.
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Again, it’s just that simple. God help us all.
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-Tim
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They would look at us and think wow, these guys are actually working and struggling and seeking advise on how to have the best possible marriage. Before this, they didn’t go to these extremes, because they didn’t know enough. Most of them held the opinion that sex was intrinsically evil and it’s only to be used to make babies. They had the same feelings as us, but they dealt with it in different ways, the worst of which could be through alcohol, brawling, affairs, etc.
Most of the people from those generations went through their life suffering in silence, accepting things that are beyond their control, and there were loads of marriages that may have looked great from the outside, but in reality was really bad. The same as today.
For us who take the time and make the efforts to evaluate how we can make our marriages the best it can possible be, I say good on us. I think those generations would say the same.

That’s my 2 cents.

PM
 
Well you know you look at other couples, and wish to be like them. I’m sure you two look much better in public, than what is going on privately. The couples you look at may have had problems that have followed the same path. When you ask what is wrong with your marriage, I say on one hand probably nothing, this type of thing is always an obstacle. On the other hand there is still something wrong if left festering will really cause real harm to the marriage.

Good on you for trying to start the communication process. You’ll need to be patient. There is always times when we will be open and other times when we will be closed. It can be hard to tell when those open times are where you could reconnect. It can be emotionally stressful to be sitting there wanting to reconnect, but have the door slammed shut. He’s probably tried himself, and you were not ready; probably didn’t even realize it. Now you try, and it hurts. Its a cross to bear, but anything that can lead to so much joy, can also lead to much sorrow. On top of that you both are probably so busy that its so easy to just spend that energy elsewhere. Do what you can. Keep trying. Also remember this may be the time to pray that the Holy Spirit can change you to meet this challenge.

You may also want to go to counseling or Retrouvaille to try to jump start this. It might be easier to be open in this environment.

The worse thing to do would be to do nothing. You will probably make mistakes while trying to get him to open up, but in the end you’ll learn more about each other in the process. Don’t give into your emotions. Once your closed off, it is easy to start thinking the worse. Then even worse one can grow apathetic and just not care anymore.

It reminds me of a story a woman once told me about how she always cries at weddings. She doesn’t cry, because she’s moved by the event or the great feelings of joy. She said she cries, because they have no idea what they getting into. I do not see that you really have any more special of a case, but with trying to learn and work (not just work hard, but figure out what is effective and work towards that) both of you should probably pass this obstacle on even stronger terms. Be patient for that opening, acknowledge your emotions, but don’t let them knock you off balance.
 
ghostman,

Thank you- your post was an “a-ha” moment for me. Maybe I’m not giving my H enough credit, and at the very least I should believe that he still loves me. I’ve been telling myself that he’s rejecting me and that I’m bearing the burden of all the emotional ramifications. But I’m sure he is too. He’s just not very open when it comes to his feelings/emotions.

I know you hit on my feelings- feelings of rejection, sadness, and disappointment. It does suck the excitement out of sex when I’m so afraid of it most of the time. We didn’t have the cooperation part of NFP worked out very well. It used to be that he would go for it any old time without checking if it was an “ok” time. I would always be the one who would have to put the brakes on which made me uncomfortable because I felt as if I was “in charge” of our sex life. We weren’t working on it together.

Still, even as your post described, there is an emotionally tumultuous roller-coaster that we’re on. It’s an ugly snapshot of the effects of NFP in our marriage. I was reading a book of 14 couples who love NFP and why. I can’t not read it without such cynicism that I want to throw the book away. What about a book that features couples that despised NFP and found their way to happiness and wholeness, coming to terms and even loving NFP in the end? It’s not as easy for all of us real-life couples as books like these try to portray.

In spite of all of this, I want to make peace with NFP somehow. Right now, I don’t know how to do that. I’m still very angry with it. Thank you for your perspective, GhostMan. PM validated your thoughts, and I think his situation is very similar to mine so I will continue to ponder these thoughts…

Kittery
 
Kittery,

This is what Pope Benedict had to say about families this past Sat. 11/4, on zenit.org.

“The Pope also called the family a “sacred and sanctifying place” when he met Saturday with some 400 participants in the International New Families Meeting, which marked the 40th anniversary of the organization’s foundation.”
  • Marriage is the center of that family. Praying for a fulfilling spiritual and physical marriage is a worthy cause.
  • Try and work together to plan those special dates and don’t decommit.
 
Kittery,
Forgive me for jumping in, but I’ve been reading most of the posts and there’s one thing no one has said lately. I know you said your husband could never abuse his children, but you didn’t think he was looking at porn either.
Bottom line: I would never allow a man that I knew was using porn to sleep in the same bed with my kids.

Please talk to him. There has to be a serious conversation, it will not be easy, but truth is always better than pretending there’s no problem. He can’t be any happier than you are.
 
Hi kittery

God loves you!

The Church loves you too, just not as well.

You and your husband are one, not two, but one. Heard that somewhere? Do I need to remind you? Bunch of posters have talked about your husbands problems. Wrong. Your problems too. Do you understand? Married couples share everything, good and bad. If you want your husband to have sex with you, sleep with you and do all that affection stuff then do it to him. If you don’t like him seeing pictures of people having sex good for you. But, to save your marriage consider sitting down with him and viewing the stuff with him. Think of the computer as foreplay. Ok, so it is unusual, but what the hell, if it works, it works. Besides, he might get to thinking that he doesn’t want you seeing all those young, fit guys running around naked.

There is a bunch of stuff that goes with porno. Porno is big into what I think of as extreme sex. Talk to your husband about expanding your sexual life in ways you find acceptable and he is willing to go along with. Try and put the spark into your marriage again. Be creative. I am not saying to give him sex in a way that you don’t like. Bunch of dirty minded people on this site, that is for sure. Try making time for him. I’ll bet you are really busy and don’t have time for him. For example, plan a picnic. Feed him, give him a bottle of wine, talk to him, tell him how much you love him. Be specific. Why do you love him, tell him. Make him know you are aware of his sacrifice for you and your family. Don’t talk about sex. Don’t talk about how you want him to have sex with you. Sounds like you have a good man and a good marriage. Sex is not something you have when one of you says “Lets go have sex”. It isn’t supposed to work that way. Sex is supposed to be more discrete.

Be willing to have that picnic and go home and do laundry. Also be willing to get turned on and have sex. Right there, on the blanket.

Good luck, and God Bless.

Larry
 
Hi ack

I don’t much care for pornography. I’d never have it in my house and I don’t watch movies that are about sex, cheating or drugs. But men and women need to fight for their marriage. You know God fights for us. I don’t know all the things to do to fight for a marriage. Prayer is certainly something, but I really think God expects us to act as well as pray. Maybe we should pray that God will guide us, and expect an answer, like now.

And then there is a time to give up. Hopefully before you get AIDS. Marriage is not about providing a means to commit adultery.

I guess you have to decide if keeping a spouse that watches porno, smokes, drinks, whatever, is worth keeping. Can you love them anyway?
 
I’m sorry to hear that you have condescended to such a level, Larry. Don’t take this personally, but I have never read a post on here quite so grotesque as yours was, however good-intentioned it was.

If you love your spouse you should will their good. That is far from good.

Regards.
 
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