What Is Your Authority?

[EphelDuath]

In matters of faith and doctrine for a protestant it would be the Inspired-Inerant Scriptures.

There’s thousands of Protestant denominations that claim to follow the Bible. How do I know which is right?

 

[justasking4]

Amen!!! And the Inspired-Inerrant Scriptures tell us to take it to the Church. So Protestant101 Authority should be Scripture AND the Church.

Hmmmmmm…

What do you do when the Scriptures and the Church are not in sync? What do you do when there are either conflicts between the 2 or the Church goes beyond what is written i.e. the Scriptures?

 

[justasking4]

Amen!!! And the Inspired-Inerrant Scriptures tell us to take it to the Church. So Protestant101 Authority should be Scripture AND the Church.

Hmmmmmm…

There’s thousands of Protestant denominations that claim to follow the Bible. How do I know which is right?

The first thing you would need to do is to know the Scriptures. If you know them, then you can use them to “test” the doctrines to see if they line up with what the Scriptures teach.

 

[guanophore]

Let’s see… our authority is… counts off on fingers

We have only had one division where you had 75, we have more than three times your number, we go far back in history before you, we have managed to keep OUR bible more or less un edited where your “light reading” bible (KJ bible) is changed several times each year. Also we don’t tithe our attendants to make money (and consequently we actually have more money than you,) nor did we begin the KKK, a group of Protestants who kill blacks, Catholics, Jews, little Johnny, Old man Gibbons, the little old lady down the street, and just about everyone who tics 'em off, not to mention we weren’t the ones who led 7 marches that supported assisting the Axis powers, or FIFTY-SIX marches supporting the outlaw of Jewish immigration or even temporary sheltering of any kind to Jewish runaways, who were defecting to try and get away during WWII… shall I go on?

Please dont! This inventory of the shortcomings of others is embarrassing. It reminds me of the disciples arguing among one another about "who is the greatest. I do not think this boasting is at all conducive to evangelism, and brings the focus onto comparing ourselves to one another, rather than holding up the True Faith.

 

[guanophore]

What do you do when the Scriptures and the Church are not in sync? What do you do when there are either conflicts between the 2 or the Church goes beyond what is written i.e. the Scriptures?

This is a good question, and is commonly asked by those poorly taught in their Catholic faith as well. There are no situations where the Scriptures and the Church are not in sync. If it appears that they are, then the problem lies in the eye of the beholder. The reader perhaps does not understand one or the other correctly. This is so because the Source of both the Scripture and the Church Teaching are the same - God.

When there appear to be conflicts, the faithful believer will accept that the conflict lies within oneself, and not within the Source, who is in complete harmony with Himself.

Your last point about the “church goes beyond what is written” is not a problem for persons belonging to Apostolic faith, since we understand that Scripture and Sacred Tradition are equal in value. Catholics are not limited to Scripture as a Source for divine revelation.

 

[EphelDuath]

What do you do when the Scriptures and the Church are not in sync? What do you do when there are either conflicts between the 2 or the Church goes beyond what is written i.e. the Scriptures?

When there is an alleged contradiction, you mean. You consult Church teaching to clear up the confusion.

The first thing you would need to do is to know the Scriptures. If you know them, then you can use them to “test” the doctrines to see if they line up with what the Scriptures teach.

Well, James 2:24 tells me that salvation by faith alone is a scham. Which eliminates all Protesant denominations right off the bat.

Excuse the taunting. What my actual point is; you can interpret scripture any way you like, you can derive any meaning you want from it. What if the Gospels are all giant allegories? Liberal Christians seem to argue this a lot. What if you don’t believe in scripture inerrancy? Without the Church, the only reason to believe the Bible is accurate is if you give it the benefit of the doubt.

How do we know if we accept the deuterocanon? The history of the Church plus the obvious divine inspiration in Wisdom 2:12-20 imply that we should have the seven OT books in our Bibles, but Protestants say we don’t. Where in the Bible does it list a Bible canon? The only way to answer that is if you’re a KJV Onlyist, which has thousands of its own problems.

And finally: where in the Bible does it say that scripture is the only authority? 1 Timothy 3:15 says that the Church is the pillar of truth, not scripture.

 

[justasking4]

EphelDuath;3129887]
Quote:justasking4.
What do you do when the Scriptures and the Church are not in sync? What do you do when there are either conflicts between the 2 or the Church goes beyond what is written i.e. the Scriptures?
EphelDuath
When there is an alleged contradiction, you mean. You consult Church teaching to clear up the confusion.

What if church teaching doesn’t address it? There is so much in scripture that your church does not address.

Quote:justasking4.
The first thing you would need to do is to know the Scriptures. If you know them, then you can use them to “test” the doctrines to see if they line up with what the Scriptures teach.

EphelDuathell,
James 2:24 tells me that salvation by faith alone is a scham. Which eliminates all Protesant denominations right off the bat.

What is the context in which James is speaking here on this?
What also of Ephesiand 2:8-9 which approach the matter from a different direction?

Excuse the taunting. What my actual point is; you can interpret scripture any way you like, you can derive any meaning you want from it.

This not true in a real sense. People may try to derive any meaning from it but that does not mean they have the true meaning of what the author intended. Its the same thing as in secular works.

What if the Gospels are all giant allegories?

Anyone who wants to claim this is going to have to have the evidence to demonstrate this. i have studied this at some depth and it won’t work.

Liberal Christians seem to argue this a lot. What if you don’t believe in scripture inerrancy?

I think the case for inerrancy is quite good but it would require a more complext case to demonstrate it.

Without the Church, the only reason to believe the Bible is accurate is if you give it the benefit of the doubt.

i actually think the case for the Scriptures being accurate is very strong on a number of levels. I can’t think of any writings that come even close to it.

How do we know if we accept the deuterocanon? The history of the Church plus the obvious divine inspiration in Wisdom 2:12-20 imply that we should have the seven OT books in our Bibles, but Protestants say we don’t. Where in the Bible does it list a Bible canon? The only way to answer that is if you’re a KJV Onlyist, which has thousands of its own problems.

There is no need for “list of the books” for the Bible for the fact that each book must stand on its own as being inspired-inerrant. If each book of the Bible passes these various tests for being inspired-inerrant then you could say you have this list for the canon.

And finally: where in the Bible does it say that scripture is the only authority? 1 Timothy 3:15 says that the Church is the pillar of truth, not scripture.

Scripture is not the only authority. There are other “authorities” in the church. However only the Scriptures alone are inspired-inerrant.

 

[runandsew]

There is no need for “list of the books” for the Bible for the fact that each book must stand on its own as being inspired-inerrant. If each book of the Bible passes these various tests for being inspired-inerrant then you could say you have this list for the canon.

What exactly are these “tests” that they must pass?

 

[jmcrae]

There is no need for “list of the books” for the Bible for the fact that each book must stand on its own as being inspired-inerrant. If each book of the Bible passes these various tests for being inspired-inerrant then you could say you have this list for the canon.

Who does this test, and why should we believe them?

What if I do the test myself, and I decide that it’s a different list of books than what we’ve been given from the Church? (I could decide to include the Didache, for example. And the Wesleyan Hymnody, and the Scottish Psalter, and Handel’s Messiah, and The Little Office of the Virgin Mary. Just for starters. I might also add The Story of a Soul, by Ste. Therese de Lisieux, and the complete works of Louis Marie de Montefort.)

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;3131460]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is no need for “list of the books” for the Bible for the fact that each book must stand on its own as being inspired-inerrant. If each book of the Bible passes these various tests for being inspired-inerrant then you could say you have this list for the canon.
jmcrae
Who does this test, and why should we believe them?

The church at the time and we should know what the criteria was used to determine this and see if it is sound. I think the tests they used were adequate.

What if I do the test myself, and I decide that it’s a different list of books than what we’ve been given from the Church? (I could decide to include the Didache, for example. And the Wesleyan Hymnody, and the Scottish Psalter, and Handel’s Messiah, and The Little Office of the Virgin Mary. Just for starters. I might also add The Story of a Soul, by Ste. Therese de Lisieux, and the complete works of Louis Marie de Montefort.)

Good question. My first question would be what would be your criteria to determine if the works you mention should be included?
Were any of these works written by a prophet or apostle of God?
If not, were any of these works associated with a prophet or apostle?
This would be an important criteria for your works to pass. If they don’t pass these 2 (and there would be more) they would be rejected as inspired-inerrant.

 

[justasking4]

runandsew;3131455]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4

There is no need for “list of the books” for the Bible for the fact that each book must stand on its own as being inspired-inerrant. If each book of the Bible passes these various tests for being inspired-inerrant then you could say you have this list for the canon.
runandsew
What exactly are these “tests” that they must pass?

Some tests would be:
1- written by a prophet or one closely associated with of God
2-written by an apostle or one closely associated with of God
3- was the writer confirmed by acts of God?
4-does the message of the book tell the truth about God?

These are just some of the tests that were used.

 

[jmcrae]

Good question. My first question would be what would be your criteria to determine if the works you mention should be included?
Were any of these works written by a prophet or apostle of God?

Yes, the Didache is a record of the sayings of the Twelve, so it is definitely Apostolic. The Wesleyan Hymnody, the Scottish Psalter, Handel’s Messiah, and The Little Office of the Virgin Mary are all re-quotations of already-existing Scripture in the form of prayers and songs, just like the Book of Psalms (whose author is unknown), which is already in the Bible, so doing this shouldn’t violate any principle of inclusion in the Bible. And the writings of both Little Therese and Louis Marie de Montefort have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to have been prophetic.

This would be an important criteria for your works to pass. If they don’t pass these 2 (and there would be more) they would be rejected as inspired-inerrant.

And what if they meet the criteria, as far as I can tell? Can I go ahead and include them in my Bible, or shall I trust the judgement of the Church in not including them, even though, as far as I can tell, they could be included without violating any of the criteria given?

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;3131542]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Good question. My first question would be what would be your criteria to determine if the works you mention should be included?
Were any of these works written by a prophet or apostle of God?
jmcrae
Yes, the Didache is a record of the sayings of the Twelve, so it is definitely Apostolic.

Do you know when it was written?

The Wesleyan Hymnody, the Scottish Psalter, Handel’s Messiah, and The Little Office of the Virgin Mary are all re-quotations of already-existing Scripture in the form of prayers and songs, just like the Book of Psalms (whose author is unknown), which is already in the Bible, so doing this shouldn’t violate any principle of inclusion in the Bible. And the writings of both Little Therese and Louis Marie de Montefort have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to have been prophetic.

Then whey doesn’t your church include the the writings of both Little Therese and Louis Marie de Montefort in the catholic Bible?

Quote: justasking4
This would be an important criteria for your works to pass. If they don’t pass these 2 (and there would be more) they would be rejected as inspired-inerrant.

jmcrae
And what if they meet the criteria, as far as I can tell?

I don’t see the works you mention as passing just these 2 tests that i mentioned.

jmcrae
Can I go ahead and include them in my Bible, or shall I trust the judgement of the Church in not including them, even though, as far as I can tell, they could be included without violating any of the criteria given?

If you are truly serious about these works you mention then you should bring this to your church for consideration. If they refuse then they must be wrong not to include them.

 

[jmcrae]

Do you know when it was written?

50 AD.

Then whey doesn’t your church include the the writings of both Little Therese and Louis Marie de Montefort in the catholic Bible?

Because they closed the canon of the Scriptures before either of them had been born - for starters. I’m sure there are other excellent reasons, too.

If you are truly serious about these works you mention then you should bring this to your church for consideration. If they refuse then they must be wrong not to include them.

Actually, I have a strong feeling that my Church is way smarter than I am, and has a better idea of what belongs in the Bible than I do.

 

[jmcrae]

If you are truly serious about these works you mention then you should bring this to your church for consideration. If they refuse then they must be wrong not to include them.

Would you include them in your Bible, on my say-so? (Hypothetically speaking. I don’t think you really should - although from my limited and very human point of view, I cannot say why you shouldn’t, other than that the Church would disapprove. But that’s not an issue, for you.)

 

[runandsew]

Some tests would be:
1- written by a prophet or one closely associated with of God
2-written by an apostle or one closely associated with of God
3- was the writer confirmed by acts of God?
4-does the message of the book tell the truth about God?

These are just some of the tests that were used.

How you know that they were written by an apostle?

The bible was canonized close to three hundred years after the death of the last apostle.
And some books which which claimed to be written by the apostles were not included in the canon.

We know this because it was passed down from the apostles.
They said “I wrote this” and this was passed down through sacred Tradition in the church.

You use Catholic Traditions as an authority to determine scripture, but you won’t admit it.

 

[runandsew]

What do you do when the Scriptures and the Church are not in sync? What do you do when there are either conflicts between the 2 or the Church goes beyond what is written i.e. the Scriptures?

The Catholic Church and scriptures are in sync 100 % of the time.

What is not in sync is the Catholic Church and your interpretation of scripture.

What makes you think that your interpretation of scripture is correct?

 

[guanophore]

What if church teaching doesn’t address it? There is so much in scripture that your church does not address.

This is a misrepresentation, ja4. The Church interprets all the scripture in the light of Apostolic Teaching. It seems unaddressed to you because you reject the Apostolic teaching. However, it is wrong to say that the Church does not infallibly interpret scripture. It does not do so divorced from the Authority from whence it was produced. That is why there are no Church Teachings that conflict with scripture.

This not true in a real sense. People may try to derive any meaning from it but that does not mean they have the true meaning of what the author intended. Its the same thing as in secular works.

This is true. This is also why it is so important, when reading and reflecting privately, to compare one’s insights to what God has already revealed to the Church.

Anyone who wants to claim this is going to have to have the evidence to demonstrate this. i have studied this at some depth and it won’t work.

It won’t work for anyone who rejects the Authority appointed by Christ.

 

[NotWorthy]

What do you do when the Scriptures and the Church are not in sync?

I don’t know. I’ll tell you when I find out a teaching that is out of sync with the Bible.

What do you do when there are either conflicts between the 2 or the Church goes beyond what is written i.e. the Scriptures?

Again, with the conflicts, we’ll cross that bridge when we find it.

When it goes beyond what is written, if it’s in harmony with the Bible, then I look to see if it’s part of Sacred Tradition, for that is older than the Bible.

Your problem is that you think the Bible is the only tool for teaching. What did those poor Christians do for the first century or two?

 

[NotWorthy]

What do you do when the Scriptures and the Church are not in sync? What do you do when there are either conflicts between the 2 or the Church goes beyond what is written i.e. the Scriptures?

Ooh! Ooh! Can I change my answer?

What do I do when the Scriptures and the church are not in synch? Why, that’s easy. I just right that church off as yet another Protestant Faith!!!

Whether it be the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the authority of a priest to forgive sins, the hierarchy of the Church, other faiths have been out of sync with the Scriptures and the Apostolic Faith time and time again.