What Is Your Authority?

[jcrichton]

In matters of faith and doctrine for a protestant it would be the Inspired-Inerant Scriptures.

***Hi, justasking4!

That appears to be a very sound reasoning… the problem is that even when you ascribe to follow the fullness of Scripture you do not (all non-Catholic Christians); this is evident because when conflicting teachings/beliefs arise the schismatic groups usually resolve the impass by parting of ways and reformulating each group into separate but similar churches.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say to test the resolve and divorce the Church to begin a true/truer church away from the original. So if the reformation was deliberance from the Church of Christ gone bad what has been the historical continuance of the thousands of schisms that continue to produce yet another “true Scriptural church?”

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[justasking4]

runandsew;3131807]How you know that they were written by an apostle?

Some kind of tradition i suspect.

The bible was canonized close to three hundred years after the death of the last apostle.
And some books which which claimed to be written by the apostles were not included in the canon.

True

We know this because it was passed down from the apostles.
They said “I wrote this” and this was passed down through sacred Tradition in the church.

What is the difference between traditon and Sacred Tradition?

You use Catholic Traditions as an authority to determine scripture, but you won’t admit it.

Its not the “tradition” itself that makes something true but does the tradition have some facts to back it up that matters.

 

[justasking4]

runandsew;3131825]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
What do you do when the Scriptures and the Church are not in sync? What do you do when there are either conflicts between the 2 or the Church goes beyond what is written i.e. the Scriptures?
runandsew
The Catholic Church and scriptures are in sync 100 % of the time.

Have you studied the marian doctrines? What you will find is that many aspects of these doctrines are not even close to being in sync with the Scriptures.

What is not in sync is the Catholic Church and your interpretation of scripture.

True in some cases.

What makes you think that your interpretation of scripture is correct?

Context, word meanings and comparison with other Scriptures all help to determine what the Scriptures mean.

 

[jmcrae]

Have you studied the marian doctrines? What you will find is that many aspects of these doctrines are not even close to being in sync with the Scriptures.

What I find, personally, when I study the Marian doctrines, is that the Scriptures make so much more sense, when read “as if” these things were true.

Rather than conflicting with the Scriptures, they cast light on them in such a way that I see things in them that I never saw before.

 

[NotWorthy]

What I find, personally, when I study the Marian doctrines, is that the Scriptures make so much more sense, when read “as if” these things were true.

Rather than conflicting with the Scriptures, they cast light on them in such a way that I see things in them that I never saw before.

This. Is. So. Very. True. Period.

 

[justasking4]

NotWorthy;3154588]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcrae
What I find, personally, when I study the Marian doctrines, is that the Scriptures make so much more sense, when read “as if” these things were true.

Rather than conflicting with the Scriptures, they cast light on them in such a way that I see things in them that I never saw before.
NotWorthy
This. Is. So. Very. True. Period.

Lots of things may make sense but that does not mean its true.
What would you say to a Mormon who also reads the book of Mormon “as if” these things were true?

 

[NotWorthy]

Lots of things may make sense but that does not mean its true.
What would you say to a Mormon who also reads the book of Mormon “as if” these things were true?

I’d ask him if His Church was blessed with the authority to “Loose and Bind”?

Then, I’d ask him if he wanted to share a Pepsi!

 

[jmcrae]

Lots of things may make sense but that does not mean its true.
What would you say to a Mormon who also reads the book of Mormon “as if” these things were true?

Things quit making sense when you do that, though. They become less logical; not more logical.

 

[guanophore]

What is the difference between traditon and Sacred Tradition?

Warning to other thread participants

Don’t fall for this. I spent months on this question with ja4, only to find out that he has no interest at all in learning about Sacred Tradition. Furthermore, he does not believe it exists. In the end, I learned that ja4 believes

1. “Sacred Tradition” is really only the speculation of men
2. The Teachers of the Church have led Catholics astray
3. Catholics fail to hold their teachers accountable for teaching errors
4. His goal in askng it is to create dialogue through which he hopes to convince Catholics of 1-3 above.

justasking4:

What you must do is be on guard against false teachers in your own church. The scriptures do warn of false teachers in the church itself. There was no promise given by Christ that this would not happen.

But nevertheless it is important to see what these Traditions are, what is there origin and when did they begin. If you are going to defend the catholic church you going to have to defend its Sacred Traditions also. Scripture and Tradition go hand in hand in the catholic church.

guanophore:

My question is, why is it important to YOU, to know what these Traditions are? You have already said that you don’t believe anything that is not written in the Bible. Why do you keep asking about them?

justasking4:

Because the catholic church elevates these Tradition claims to the same level as the inspired-inerrant Scripture. Second, if catholics are going to believe that
these Traditions are at the same level as Scripture then its vitally important to understand specifically what these Traditions are.

guanophore:

You have already stated they are “speculations of men” and have no validity, since you do not see them in your bible.

justasking4:

i want to help others see it to. Engaging for the truth is never a waste of time. Secondly it might get someone who reads these posts to rethink their position.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=170992&page=11&highlight=you+must+do+is+be+on+guard+against+false+teachers+in+your+own+church

 

[justasking4]

Ooh! Ooh! Can I change my answer?

What do I do when the Scriptures and the church are not in synch? Why, that’s easy. I just right that church off as yet another Protestant Faith!!!

Whether it be the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the authority of a priest to forgive sins, the hierarchy of the Church, other faiths have been out of sync with the Scriptures and the Apostolic Faith time and time again.

Your church is already out of sync with the marian doctrines and practices since these docttines were never taught by the apostles and the Scriptures.
These are just a couple of examples of being out of sync with the scriptures.

No need to start a new protestant church since there are many already in existence.

We could also look at the forbidding of eat meat on Fridays and a celibate leadership which is also unbilical.

 

[justasking4]

I’d ask him if His Church was blessed with the authority to “Loose and Bind”?

Then, I’d ask him if he wanted to share a Pepsi!

If he said that he does have the authority to “Loose and Bind” then what?

 

[guanophore]

Your church is already out of sync with the marian doctrines and practices since these docttines were never taught by the apostles and the Scriptures.
These are just a couple of examples of being out of sync with the scriptures.

No need to start a new protestant church since there are many already in existence.

We could also look at the forbidding of eat meat on Fridays and a celibate leadership which is also unbilical.

ja4, what happenend to my suggestion that you take your anticatholic venom elsewhere? Have you considered opening your own forum, where you can bash Catholic beliefs? You can send personal invitations to Catholics who are weak in their faith, and try to convert them into Bible Christians!

 

[NotWorthy]

Your church is already out of sync with the marian doctrines and practices since these docttines were never taught by the apostles and the Scriptures.
These are just a couple of examples of being out of sync with the scriptures.

No need to start a new protestant church since there are many already in existence.

But that is just it. When I see something out of sync with the Scriptures, it already is a Protestant religion - be it Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS, Double Pre-destination, the Rapture. These are all unbiblcial, and they are all believed at least in part by every Protestant religition out there.

We could also look at the forbidding of eat meat on Fridays and a celibate leadership which is also unbilical.

Have you read Paul’s Epistles. None of these things are unbiblical.

 

[NotWorthy]

If he said that he does have the authority to “Loose and Bind” then what?

He’d have to show me in the Bible that Jesus gave Joseph Smith the authority to “bind and loose”, rather than Peter and then the Apostles as a group.

Then I’d offer him a Pepsi!

 

[justasking4]

NotWorthy;3157005]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Your church is already out of sync with the marian doctrines and practices since these docttines were never taught by the apostles and the Scriptures.
These are just a couple of examples of being out of sync with the scriptures.

No need to start a new protestant church since there are many already in existence.

NotWorthy
But that is just it. When I see something out of sync with the Scriptures, it already is a Protestant religion - be it Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS, Double Pre-destination, the Rapture. These are all unbiblcial, and they are all believed at least in part by every Protestant religition out there.

There are some protestant churches that are out of sync. However the doctrines here are debateable and are not essential for salvation.

Quote:
We could also look at the forbidding of eat meat on Fridays and a celibate leadership which is also unbilical.
NotWorthy
Have you read Paul’s Epistles. None of these things are unbiblical.

Where does Paul in his letters make celibacy a requirement for leadership?
Where does he teach that to eat meat is a sin in and of itself?

 

[guanophore]

There are some protestant churches that are out of sync. However the doctrines here are debateable and are not essential for salvation.

Where is the list of “essentials for salvation”? Is that an infallible list?

Where does Paul in his letters make celibacy a requirement for leadership?
Where does he teach that to eat meat is a sin in and of itself?

I think both these questions are irrelevant, since the Catholic Church does not teach either one.

 

[juliamajor]

There are some protestant churches that are out of sync. However the doctrines here are debateable and are not essential for salvation.

Where does Paul in his letters make celibacy a requirement for leadership?
Where does he teach that to eat meat is a sin in and of itself?

sigh! do you believe that doctrines and scripture where handed down at the same time? Just as oral tradition was before scripture(written)so scripture formed doctrine .Why is doctrine necessary? because scripture is debatable. Trinity? you could make a case for or against it- how did we get the idea of trinity into doctrine? talked about debated , argued, fought over sometimes for centuries. There are many scriptures out there that are nebulous to say the least- and not as self evident as you think -Hypostatic Union,Jesus fully God Or fully Man- they did not define themselves but were defined by people-inspired by HS as promised to keep us from,Arianism,Monophysitism,Adoptism, Gnosticism, Nestoianism,Docetism,Judaizer, Ebionites etc.They Could have slowed the spread of christianity for centuries- but instead it flourished- why ?because doctrine and clarity were need in order to secure the Church’s future and it was wrestled with and many times the internecine warfare wasn’t pretty but it hammered out doctrines that define who and what a Christian is.East and West catholics defined it ,our church fathers defined it

 

[jcrichton]

ja4, what happenend to my suggestion that you take your anticatholic venom elsewhere? Have you considered opening your own forum, where you can bash Catholic beliefs? You can send personal invitations to Catholics who are weak in their faith, and try to convert them into Bible Christians!

***Hi, guanophore!

What you are asking is impossible:

1. Catholic bashing only works on Catholics
2. Being the head of those who agree with him is an empty victory
3. He would lose his teacher’s license
4. His chances to become Catholic would be negligible!

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[guanophore]

***Hi, guanophore!

What you are asking is impossible:

1. Catholic bashing only works on Catholics
2. Being the head of those who agree with him is an empty victory
3. He would lose his teacher’s license
4. His chances to become Catholic would be negligible!

Maran atha!

Angel***

You are right, of course. My concern is that he flirts constantly with violating the forum rules. This being the case, if he gets banned for proselytizing or offending the Catholic faith, will that be of any ultimate benefit either?

 

[jcrichton]

sigh! do you believe that doctrines and scripture where handed down at the same time? Just as oral tradition was before scripture(written)so scripture formed doctrine .Why is doctrine necessary? because scripture is debatable. Trinity? you could make a case for or against it- how did we get the idea of trinity into doctrine? talked about debated , argued, fought over sometimes for centuries. There are many scriptures out there that are nebulous to say the least- and not as self evident as you think -Hypostatic Union,Jesus fully God Or fully Man- they did not define themselves but were defined by people-inspired by HS as promised to keep us from,Arianism,Monophysitism,Adoptism, Gnosticism, Nestoianism,Docetism,Judaizer, Ebionites etc.They Could have slowed the spread of christianity for centuries- but instead it flourished- why ?because doctrine and clarity were need in order to secure the Church’s future and it was wrestled with and many times the internecine warfare wasn’t pretty but it hammered out doctrines that define who and what a Christian is.East and West catholics defined it ,our church fathers defined it

***Hi, juliamajor!

…that’s the beauty of being a protestant… you can complain about everything without having to have put in an honest-day-work!

Maran atha!

Angel***