What Is Your Authority?

[Harsalter]

Do you have chapter and verse for this?

You were quoted scripture that explains the virtue of celibacy and the need for it when totally dedicated to Christ and the Church, but do not want to accept it.

Sola Scriptura is just so simple and silly. It really is. You guys want to go strictly by a book where the New Testament was written by Catholics for Catholics and canonized by Catholic Bishops, then you want to dispute the very same Catholics that wrote and put together the Holy Bible by using the book they put together. And the reason you do not fully understand the Bible is because you do not have the Church’s ‘Sacred Tradition’ and the Church leadership to decipher what the scriptures mean. That’s why protestants now have over 30,000 denominations. Please get a clue.

This hypocrisy and others is why I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism.

 

[NotWorthy]

One place to look would be I Corinthians 15:1-4. Would you agree this is an essential?

Uh, when one asks for a list, it usually helps for the list to be complete. Otherwise, you wouldn’t know if you are ignoring something that is essential.

Of course the catholic church mandates celibacy for church leadership. If you are a catholic man that is married you are disqualified from leadership i.e. priest, bishop or pope.

My priest is married, and he’s Roman Catholic. He became a grandfather last week.

Is it not true that there was a time that if you were a catholic and ate meat on Fridays it was a sin?
Is it not also true that if you eat meat on on Fridays during lent its a sin?

Why yes. Disciplines JA4, Discipline.

BTW, do you know why the Church mandated this discipline?

 

[Harsalter]

Uh, when one asks for a list, it usually helps for the list to be complete. Otherwise, you wouldn’t know if you are ignoring something that is essential.

My priest is married, and he’s Roman Catholic. He became a grandfather last week.

I think I heard that the Church has approx 40 married priests worldwide at this time. I definately prefer that my parish would never have a married priest assigned to us.

But I’m sure your priest does a fine job. Because they are (if I’m not mistaken) mostly protestant converts. So they are very well motivated and freshly inspired.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think I heard that the Church has approx 40 married priests worldwide at this time. I definately prefer that my parish would never have a married priest assigned to us.

But I’m sure your priest does a fine job. Because they are (if I’m not mistaken) mostly protestant converts. So they are very well motivated and freshly inspired.

He’s a wonderful man! And, he’s one of the staunchest proponents of the need of a celibate priesthood.

His take on it is this:
A man promises to love, honor, and obey his wife. And all the other vows that married men make.
A priest promises to work tirelessly for Christ, and His Church.

A married priest is going to be forced to neglect one of the duties, for there is simply not enough time in their lives to fulfill both roles.

Our priest, was Episcopal, and his youngest daughter was about 16 when he went he joined the Church. He said that he could never have been a priest and a father (a Father and a father?) with young kids. He was lucky that he converted so late in his life (he’s 60 right now).

Incidentally, his wife was a cradle Catholic and had left the Church when she married him. So I tell him that he was dancing on a tightrope when he led his wife away from Mother Church. Thank God they both came Home!!!

 

[justasking4]

Harsalter;3164070]You were quoted scripture that explains the virtue of celibacy and the need for it when totally dedicated to Christ and the Church, but do not want to accept it.

Here is the passage you quoted:
"But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. I Corinthians 7:32-33

Now please go and read the context where this is found and see if Paul is saying anything about leadership when he writes these words.

Sola Scriptura is just so simple and silly. It really is. You guys want to go strictly by a book where the New Testament was written by Catholics for Catholics and canonized by Catholic Bishops, then you want to dispute the very same Catholics that wrote and put together the Holy Bible by using the book they put together. And the reason you do not fully understand the Bible is because you do not have the Church’s ‘Sacred Tradition’ and the Church leadership to decipher what the scriptures mean. That’s why protestants now have over 30,000 denominations. Please get a clue.

i thought it was forbidden to mock another person’ belief. Secondly, it seems that since Bible has always played a significant role in the catholic church that it appears to me that catholics here don’t know it that well.

This hypocrisy and others is why I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism.

No doubt there are hypocrites in protestant churches as well as here it seems.
Why did you convert? Was it that there were supposedly 30,000 denominations the primary reason??

 

[jmcrae]

Here is the passage you quoted:
"But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. I Corinthians 7:32-33

Now please go and read the context where this is found and see if Paul is saying anything about leadership when he writes these words.

If this is written for laymen, to recommend laymen to be celibate in order to better serve the Lord (who don’t have nearly the amount of duties as priests), then how do you get that Church leaders are called to lesser holiness than laymen?

 

[justasking4]

NotWorthy;3164270]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
One place to look would be I Corinthians 15:1-4. Would you agree this is an essential?
NotWorthy
Uh, when one asks for a list, it usually helps for the list to be complete. Otherwise, you wouldn’t know if you are ignoring something that is essential.

There are limitations on this formum to do so. Let me though give you a few more:
Doctrine of the Trinity
Deity of Christ
Man’s fall
Forgiveness is only through and by Christ
Salvation is only through faith

Quote:
Of course the catholic church mandates celibacy for church leadership. If you are a catholic man that is married you are disqualified from leadership i.e. priest, bishop or pope.
NotWorthy
My priest is married, and he’s Roman Catholic. He became a grandfather last week.

Is he the exception to the rule?
Can any roman catholic married man where you go to church become a priest while married?

Quote:
Is it not true that there was a time that if you were a catholic and ate meat on Fridays it was a sin?
Is it not also true that if you eat meat on on Fridays during lent its a sin?
NotWorthy
Why yes. Disciplines JA4, Discipline.

How is it that the practice or implementation of a Discipline can be a sin?
What is the doctrine behind this Discipline?

BTW, do you know why the Church mandated this discipline?

i have read various things about it. Why did they?

 

[Harsalter]

If this is written for laymen, to recommend laymen to be celibate in order to better serve the Lord (who don’t have nearly the amount of duties as priests), then how do you get that Church leaders are called to lesser holiness than laymen?

I agree jmcrae. And if this was aimed at lay people, I suppose it was meant for the Church to die out in one generation.

Absurd!

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;3166326]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Here is the passage you quoted:
"But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. I Corinthians 7:32-33

Now please go and read the context where this is found and see if Paul is saying anything about leadership when he writes these words.
jmcrae
If this is written for laymen, to recommend laymen to be celibate in order to better serve the Lord (who don’t have nearly the amount of duties as priests), then how do you get that Church leaders are called to lesser holiness than laymen?

Do we agree that this chapter is not about the qualifications for church leadership?

I’m not clear on your question. Can you clarify?

 

[Harsalter]

i thought it was forbidden to mock another person’ belief. Secondly, it seems that since Bible has always played a significant role in the catholic church that it appears to me that catholics here don’t know it that well.

No one is mocking anyone. I made a point how rediculous it is for protestants to believe in a book but not agree with the authors.

And what authority do you have to translate and decipher scripture ? Are you a authority in the Catholic Church? If not, your opinion does not mean a hill of beans to me as you have no clue. That’s what my Church teaches and thats what I believe. If that ruffles your feathers, so be it.

If individuals had the authority to make their own conclusions of the Bible, then we would have as many Churches as individuals. Well, the Protestants are close to that, aren’t they?

 

[jmcrae]

Do we agree that this chapter is not about the qualifications for church leadership?

It is about the qualifications for holiness. St. Paul is saying that it is more holy to be celibate than to be married. Surely, church leaders are supposed to be more holy than the lay folk; not less holy, right?

Why would St. Paul recommend celibacy to lay men, but not to clergy?

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;3166415]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do we agree that this chapter is not about the qualifications for church leadership?
jmcrae;
It is about the qualifications for holiness. St. Paul is saying that it is more holy to be celibate than to be married. Surely, church leaders are supposed to be more holy than the lay folk; not less holy, right?

What makes you think that you can’t be just as holy being married? i don’t know anything in scripture that tells me otherwise.

Why would St. Paul recommend celibacy to lay men, but not to clergy?

i think Paul is expressing something that is a truism in that being married causes people to have divided interests in relation to Christ. He is not mandating this as a requirement for leadership.

 

[justasking4]

Harsalter;3166391]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
i thought it was forbidden to mock another person’ belief. Secondly, it seems that since Bible has always played a significant role in the catholic church that it appears to me that catholics here don’t know it that well.

No one is mocking anyone. I made a point how rediculous it is for protestants to believe in a book but not agree with the authors.

What do you mean by this last comment?

And what authority do you have to translate and decipher scripture ? Are you a authority in the Catholic Church? If not, your opinion does not mean a hill of beans to me as you have no clue. That’s what my Church teaches and thats what I believe. If that ruffles your feathers, so be it.

Its not an issue of needing an authority from any church but what do the scriptures say about to know it. Scriptures itself commands followers to know it well.
Secondly, it is also true that some excellent scholarship on the Scriptures is found on the protestant side and acknowledge by many catholic scholars.

If individuals had the authority to make their own conclusions of the Bible, then we would have as many Churches as individuals. Well, the Protestants are close to that, aren’t they?

There are probably just as many differences in protestant churches as among individual catholics. Take the interpretation of the Scriptures. Among catholics that i have encounter on these formns i see a wide diversity and opinions here. You do realize that you church has offically interpreted less than 20 verses of the entire Bible don’t you?

 

[celticcrusader]

i just finished going over 1st COR 7:32-33 . if you read all of chap. 7 you will see Paul is talking about marriage, not church leadership . you can also see paul thinks time is very short untill the return of Jesus. thats why if you are unmarried , he says stay that way so you can focus on Gods work . THE BIBLE is a great book isn’t it ? we can take a couple of verses , maybe even out of context& support any argument we want to make!!!

 

[guanophore]

What do you mean by this last comment?

That you reject the Catholic Teaching that is the Source of the Scripture.

You do realize that you church has offically interpreted less than 20 verses of the entire Bible don’t you?

That is because Catholics have received the Teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, which is that the scriptures are to be taken as a whole, not piecemealed a verse at a time. You will note that Jesus did not do this either!

 

[guanophore]

Eastern Rite Catholics are still Roman Catholic.

A Latin Rite can be married in unique circumstances, such as if a Eastern priest converts to the Latin rite.

Eastern Rite Catholics are not “Roman”. They are part of non-Roman Rites. They are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[guanophore]

Where does Paul in his letters make celibacy a requirement for leadership?
Where does he teach that to eat meat is a sin in and of itself?

Both these questions are like those “So, when did you stop beating your wife?” questions. They are based on false premises.

No where does Paul make celibacy a requirement for leadership. Neither does the Catholic Church, which is led majorily by lay persons in many and various positions of parish leadership.

You are equating priesthood with leadership. This is a false assumption.

The Church does not teach anywhere that eating any food is a sin in and of itself. This is calumny.

 

[guanophore]

Can any roman catholic married man where you go to church become a priest while married?

The Church prefers to choose priests from among the unmarried, so that they can dedicate their whole focus to the care of God’s flock.

How is it that the practice or implementation of a Discipline can be a sin? What is the doctrine behind this Discipline?

I think this should be on a different thread. It is good, though, that you are starting to understand that there is a difference between doctrine and discipline.

 

[jcrichton]

i just finished going over 1st COR 7:32-33 . if you read all of chap. 7 you will see Paul is talking about marriage, not church leadership . you can also see paul thinks time is very short untill the return of Jesus. thats why if you are unmarried , he says stay that way so you can focus on Gods work . THE BIBLE is a great book isn’t it ? we can take a couple of verses , maybe even out of context& support any argument we want to make!!!

***Hi, celticcrusader (the team or the people?)

Paul is not talking exclusively about marriage; he is actually counter posing values: those who serve the Lord, as he does, in celibacy do well because they occupy themselves only with the Lord (v. 6-7).

What I truly find interesting is how non-Catholics can quote Scriptures and demand that we adhere to Scriptures but when it comes to certain issues they do not seem to agree with Scriptures: Paul says that it is better to remain celibate so as to serve only the Lord but they do not agree with him; neither do they take heed of his words that we all have various Gifts from Yahweh and that we are to render our services to Christ as our gifts allow.

If the Church, after hundreds of years of experience with Priests and Bishops who served as celibates or as married men, determined that it was be best to retain celibacy as the full consecration to Christ’s Body why are non-Catholics so ofended by this determination–specially when every Tom, Jack or Jill can claim to be directed by the Holy Spirit to lead people into x belief or sub-function of x belief?

We can argue forever… but is Paul insisting that we keep slaves? (v. 21-24) Paul counter poses both gaining freedom and staying in serviture; but no one would suggest that it would profit more a slave to remain a slave; yet, if by gaining his freedom a man would lose Christ–I think that all Christians would agree that he should stay as a slave.

It is the same with celibacy–if a man can better serve Christ in a state of celibacy then he should seek the office of the Priesthood; yet, if he is unable to do so, then he should get married and serve Christ as a married man.

Are we to assume that the Church could not and should not mature; during her infancy the Apostles still frequented the synagogues–soon they learned that they could not (fear of imprisonment/death). So the Church emerged not as an anti-synagogue but as a response to Christians’ need: first in a few homes, then in more organanized form, then in hidden form, then in semi-visible form, then in visible and organized form… and it continues to mature (yes even amidst of both internal and external turmoil and errors).

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[guanophore]

What makes you think that you can’t be just as holy being married? i don’t know anything in scripture that tells me otherwise.

This probably should go on another thread also. For those who are called to marriage, this is the means through which they achieve holiness. For those who are called to celibacy, their path to holiness is found in devotion entirely to the things of the Lord, rather than to spouse and children. Both paths are equally valued. The Church prefers to select priests from the unmarried so that they are not distracted by the cares of this world.

i think Paul is expressing something that is a truism in that being married causes people to have divided interests in relation to Christ. He is not mandating this as a requirement for leadership.

I agree with you :bigyikes: This is why the CAtholic Church has many people in leadership that are married.