What is your favorite proof for God?

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Most of this “Timeline” is pure speculation and when we get to the the formation of life from non-life we are reverting to the middle ages’ idea of “spontaneous generation”, which has been discredited centuries ago.
The dating of earth periods is done with “circular logic” where the date of rocks/sediments are deducted by particular life-forms found in them and the dating of organisms is done by the type of rock/sediment where they are found; so we say that this layer is X billion years old because the organisms found in them are X billion years old and then we calculate that organisms are Y billions of years old because they are found in Y billions years layers.
Darwinist evolution required a belief in uniformitarianism, thus the billions of years figure. They would not entertain the idea of cataclysmic events in their theory but then they had to reluctantly accept that possibility and nowadays have accepted some form of catastrophism and some even believe that maybe up to 98% of all life on earth was destroyed some 65 millions years ago, although Wiki reckons only half of animal species perished - they had to do so to keep the evolution idea on line - but why some survived and others not is not explained.
But if catastrophism is indeed the way the cookie crumbles and the earth has been subjected to life destroying forces throughout its history, then there is not enough time for the development of the number of diverse life-forms that exist at present
Of course the Wikipedia timeline is just one among several scientific theories. Being exposed from early age to science, through both sci-fi and popular science, and later actually learning the thing, I always keep a healthy detachment from scientific theories. What is true today may be wrong tomorrow. That timeline is a scientific theory, not the truth, and you have to give it credence only to the extent that it fits your honestly formed knowledge and intuition. If it doesn’t, forget it and move on. It is likely to be partially if not entirely wrong anyway.
As a side note, I doubt that science will ever provide a decisive argument for or against religious beliefs. The most powerful arguments for religious beliefs have always been, to me, of aesthetical and emotional nature. A good account of that is in a post by kildare above — and I don’t mean the Anthropic Principle. Things like, and I quote kildare,

“[Christianity] has progressed humanity, through music, science, art and literature onto the highest conceivable plane.”

“It also feels right to me.”

“The old testament prophesies were born out completely in Jesus, but in a way no one else at the time could have conceived.”

Forget the miracles, if the life of Jesus is a fabrication it has to go down as being the greatest work of literature of all time. In fact its influenced the greatest works of literature anyway. It feels right, because the ideas expressed in the bible do not seem logical and common sense from a human point of view. They shouldn’t work, and yet they do - so successfully!”
 
Well if we cant 100% believe eye-witness accounts, then what other signs are there to believe that christianity is correct?

What about a sort of anthropic principal - the right religion is the one that survives and bears the best fruit. (As Jesus himself said). I mean statistically neither I nor anyone else should even exist, but we do. Likewise the Universe apparently. And so I exist and so does the catholic church, which just happens to be the greatest force on earth in almost every respect for the last 2000 years.
And this is one of my other proofs for Christainity (not just God).
Exibit A: Western Civilisation based on the Judeo-Christain, which is the civilisation which despite causing great sufferring through its liberal-reactionary conflicts, has progressed humanity, through music, science, art and literature onto the highest conceivable plane.
It also feels right to me. The old testament prophesies were born out completely in Jesus, but in a way no one else at the time could have coneceived. Forget the miracles, if the life of Jesus is a fabrication it has to go down as being the greatest work of literature of all time. In fact its influenced the greatest works of literature anyway. It feels right, because the ideas expressed in the bible do not seem logical and common sense from a human point of view. They shouldnt work, and yet they do - so successfully!
But now maybe I’m getting on to another argument for the truth of christianity.

To those who say -“you might have been born in another civilisation and thus by no fault of your own, not be a christian, or even hear of it”
I reply
"You could have been born a tadpole and now be a frog in a frenchmans soup. So what!
This is the Antropic principle…sort of 😃
Great post — though I am no fan of the Anthropic Principle.
 
On the other hand the Catholic Church wants to gather all the people of the world under its banner. Seems both are rather similar in their goals.
So it is with each religion as well as with some philosophies. So, I get my choice. And, I chose Jesus Christ and all that comes with Him in the Holy Roman Catholic church.
 
Thank you for your clarifications above. I will contact you outside this forum soon to talk with you about your Geon ideas.
How about interpreting organics in deep space as the residue from blown-up galaxies once teeming with organic life?
Until SETI produces many positive results, I think this highly unlikely, For one thing, it would mean our whole concept of cloud and star and planet formation is essentially wrong.
A free tip from an ornery old frat: Never trust the stuff you’ve been taught. Always trust your own mind.
In an important respect, I cannot do this. If I were to do this, then I would be trusting something you taught me, which would violate the condition: “never trust the stuff you’ve been taught”. I like the statement, from my adviser, “learn to live with and love uncertainty.” I have to trust what I’ve been taught. I don’t know any other good way to do science (no need to re-invent every wheel).
Me too. I’m curious as to your reaction to the book I’ve already sic’d you onto. PM on the way. The next book I’ll invite you to read is mine, but all your schmoozing and cozying-up won’t get you a free copy. I want your ten bucks and my 40-cent royalty income by way of support, and I figure on earning it. Cheap enough for life changing ideas.
I would need good reason to think that the ideas are life-changing, not so much for the $10, but for the time it will take to seriously read and consider your ideas.
 
My mother actually met people who witnessed the “miracle of the son”. The thing happened, no doubt about that; if it was a natural phenomenon, then it had been scheduled a couple of months before… This is a key aspect of the Fátima phenomenon, for it allowed many high profile skeptics to go there and exert a strong and credible critical assessment of the “miracle”. One particular guy my mother accidentally met went there only to discredit the whole thing — but came back a devout for the rest of his life.
And if your mother had met someone who actually claimed to have seen Sai Baba fly through the air, then she would have believed him?
So you think that there are phenomena so beyond our knowledge of the natural laws that they can be deemed supernatural (like those “miracles” of the Indian guy, or the resurrection of the African guy, which you seem to accept as truthful) and yet side with Sam Harris and call yourself atheist? Given their extraordinary nature, either those things are magic of the Copperfield sort, and you can’t use them to discredit Jesus, or some people indeed have supernatural powers and you cannot be an atheist.
NO. I promise you, I don’t believe in any of that BS. But that is my point. Even with all of the “eyewitness testimony”, it is far more likely that his fanatical followers are spreading wild stories about their leader’s magic powers than that this nutcase is actually raising the dead. I would bet that most Catholics, if presented with the evidence for Sai Baba’s miracles, would say that we should still not conclude that he is the Son of God. Many of those Catholics would still expect me to believe that Jesus was the Son of God based on the testimony of his followers, however, and that is the double standard that I am calling out.
You still can say that such evidence is stronger than the evidence for Jesus, but if you’re an atheist you have to discount them all as just man-made illusions. You then have a totally coherent position — but an unconvincing one given that you keep the extraordinary stuff unaddressed.
My point is that “eyewitness testimony” is not good enough to justify a belief in a miracle. The fanatical followers of these spiritual leaders can spread all of the crazy stories that they want, unless I see evidence, I won’t believe it. I find it hard to believe that a God who is supposedly well aware of humanity’s tendency to be a bunch of lying, scheming, self serving people with agendas would honestly expect us to come to such an important decision based on the testimony of total strangers.
What about a sort of anthropic principal - the right religion is the one that survives and bears the best fruit. (As Jesus himself said).
I would disagree. Saying that a belief is true simply because it results in positive things happening seems dangerously close to an Argument from Consequences, which is a well known logical fallacy (link)
Exibit A: Western Civilisation based on the Judeo-Christain, which is the civilisation which despite causing great sufferring through its liberal-reactionary conflicts, has progressed humanity, through music, science, art and literature onto the highest conceivable plane.
It also feels right to me.

The old testament prophesies were born out completely in Jesus, but in a way no one else at the time could have coneceived. Forget the miracles, if the life of Jesus is a fabrication it has to go down as being the greatest work of literature of all time. In fact its influenced the greatest works of literature anyway. It feels right, because the ideas expressed in the bible do not seem logical and common sense from a human point of view. They shouldnt work, and yet they do - so successfully!
Again, I have to say this sounds like an Argument from Consequences, unfortunately.

V

P.S. My e-mail doesn’t seem to be alerting me properly when new posts are made, which is why I didn’t reply faster, I’ll try to respond more quickly next time, thanks for everyone’s patience 🙂
 
Until SETI produces many positive results, I think this highly unlikely, For one thing, it would mean our whole concept of cloud and star and planet formation is essentially wrong.
Back in 1970 when I wrote the code for the first automatic telescope, the MTBAT (Mean Time Between Astronomy Textbooks) was something like 5-7 years, notably short for a “hard” science. Then I and others got to work putting instruments, telescopes next, under computer control, and developing computerized image enhancement techniques. Computers also made space telescopes possible (and I wrote code for the first of those). I believe that since astronomers caught onto the value of computers (many struggled), the MTBAT has actually shrunk. Nothing wrong with that, but I think that this history might leave a young astronomer very open-minded about the possibility that a lot of the stuff he’d been taught is stuff he’ll either get to relearn---- or better, have the opportunity to personally correct.

The history of astronomy is that of getting things right, and wrong. (E.g: Copernicus) Because astronomy is a science, its own people correct the most egregious errors. Yet given its history, I’d expect an astronomer to look forward to correcting more of the many errors which astronomers have made, thus keeping that awesome field of study alive and healthy.

Considering the significant items about which astronomy is currently clueless, e.g: dark energy, dark matter, and the Big Bang’s absurd “singularity,” errors in star and planet formation theory seem to me about as important as the question, “Did 4, rather than 5 flies sneak into the house when the screen door was opened?”
In an important respect, I cannot do this. If I were to do this, then I would be trusting something you taught me, which would violate the condition: “never trust the stuff you’ve been taught”. I like the statement, from my adviser, “learn to live with and love uncertainty.” I have to trust what I’ve been taught. I don’t know any other good way to do science (no need to re-invent every wheel).
Wrong. Since you’ve not paid me enough (e.g: anything) to be your teacher, I have no power to teach you anything. The best I can do is propose ideas, which you, in turn, may accept or reject. Any which you accept become your ideas.

This is because ideas are different from dollar bills and personal property. You can take an idea from me without depriving me of it.

With whatever respect is due your adviser, he, she, or it is a nitwit. If you were in the field of philosophy,or psychology, or any study which involved the choices of even somewhat intelligent entities, then, yes, embrace uncertainty. Otherwise, uncertainty is a sell-out. (And I’m not talking about experimental error-bars.)

Embracing uncertainty is just a nit’s way of saying, “Run with the tribe, jump to the same music, collect your share of the government grant money, and let’s all not rock the boat.” Loving uncertainty is a perfect way to set your life course as a perpetual shmoo.

“Shmoos”, Mose warns, “is the greatest menace to hoomanity th’ world has evah known.” “Thass becuz they is so bad, huh?” asked Li’l Abner. “No, stupid”, answers Mose - and then encapsulates one of life’s profound paradoxes: “It’s because they’s so good!!”

From the link, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmoo"

There is considerable power in not trusting the stuff you’ve been taught. It is different from disbelieving the stuff or rejecting it outright. In fact, distrust is at the philosophical core of the scientific method. Why do scientists try to duplicate the experiments of other scientists?

Religion’s style of idea-development is to accept the words of convincing prophets or gurus at face value and build a belief system around them. Philosophy depends entirely upon the charisma of its authority figures (i.e. their obfuscatory skills), plus a pretense of logic applied to a tiny subset of available information. Science got rich and important by distrusting. Grow some cajones and carry the torch.

Good science does not come out of stupid, expensive experiments like the LHC. It comes out of the rare human mind willing to question his perfessers.
I would need good reason to think that the ideas are life-changing, not so much for the $10, but for the time it will take to seriously read and consider your ideas.
Actually, the only way you’ll know for certain if the ideas are life changing is if you read them, understand, and notice down the road that your life is different. However, since you possess the quality of curiosity, your life will change whether you read my stuff or not. You might not even know the causes of the changes which you experience. The greater likelihood is that if you read my stuff, you’ll attribute any subsequent life adjustments to one of Oprah’s self-help gurus, or even entirely to your own personal insights. What is important is that your life works.

Therefore it is not important that you believe that my ideas are potentially life-changing. It is only important that **I **so believe, else I’d never expend the considerable time, effort, and cost to put them to printed page.
 
I think the thread has already been thoroughly derailed, don’t worry 😃

The big one for me is the cult of Sathya Sai Baba. This man is effectively a modern day Jesus. He has performed miracles in front of thousands of witnesses, healed the sick, changed water into oil, created objects out of thin air, raised the dead, bilocated, flown through the air, and so much more, according to the eyewitness testimony of his followers, all of whom claim that he is the divine Son of God, sent to rescue humanity. The central claim of Christian apologists is that we should trust the Gospel accounts, that we should trust these ancient biographies of Jesus, written decades after his death by people that may or may not have been eyewitnesses. This is the evidence that we are presented with. And yet that pales in comparison to the testimony of Sai Baba’s followers. We have thousands of living eyewitnesses for Sai Baba’s miracles. His devout followers have written extensive biographies detailing his teachings, his virgin birth, and his many miracles. And yet Christian apologists don’t expect us to believe that Sai Baba is the Son of God. They do expect us to come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Son of God as a result of several ancient, anonymously authored biographies of Jesus, written by his fanatical followers decades after his death, but they don’t for one second expect us to believe that Sai Baba is the Son of God as a result of the fact that we have thousands of living witnesses for his miraculous deeds, or the biographies written about Sai Baba by his eyewitness followers, during his lifetime. The apologists hold a double standard, expecting us to believe in the divinity of Jesus based on their “evidence”, but to ignore the evidence for the divinity of Sai Baba, which is, dare I say, at least 100 times stronger than the evidence for the divinity of Jesus. That is why their arguments are weak, and if I had to pick a religion based on evidence, it would not be Christianity, it would be the cult of Sai Baba.

That turned into kind of a disorganized rant, but hopefully that answered your question,
V
Two thousand years ago, eyewitness accounts worked. It’s the the 21st century. Where are the video recordings? Anything attributed to a “Baba” is suspect.

Moreover, I don’t care if he can walk on the moon, urinate fine wine, and regurgitate prime ribeye steaks. What does he teach that differs from the usual and customary?
 
]Again, I’m going to have to ask you to please state your source for the claim that bones don’t decompose.

Wow, am I suppose to cut and paste here? Other than “all of the websites” that you have indicated, please send me your sources. I know there are many who share your view; however, I am not one of them.
You might want to learn how to click the QUOTE button, so that others on the thread can obtain some context into which to put your comments. Otherwise you are writing to yourself, or sending whatever might pass for thought into the aether.
 
Fair enough, do you have an explanation for the origin of self-replicating structures (cells or otherwise)?
The current theory runs as follows: lightning strikes on the early earth synthesized amino acids, lipid membranes and then ribozymes (which self replicate). Correct me if I’m wrong greylorn.

But how does this contradict God’s immanence in creation? Lightning has long been associated with the very voice of God: "“He made darkness the cover about him; his canopy, heavy thunderheads. Before him scudded his clouds, hail and lightning too. The Lord thundered from heaven; the Most High made his voice resound.” (Ps 18:12-14).

God is continuously creating at every moment by actualizing one of many potential outcomes in quantum mechanics. The overall effect of this is that all of nature acts according to his will, bringing the potencies of matter to act from the original seminal notions. As Saint Thomas Aquinas nicely summarizes: “[A]t the very beginning of creation there were some things specifically distinct in their proper nature, such as the elements, celestial bodies and spiritual substances, but others existed in seminal notions alone, such as animals, plants and men, all of which were produced in their proper nature in that work that God governs after it was constituted in the work of the six days. Of this work we read in John 5:17, ‘My Father works even until now, and I work.” (Aquinas, II Sentences, dist. XII, q.1 art.2)

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com
 
Greylorn, I’m afraid you’ve made an error. I’m sure you know this, but I’m pasting this here for everyone else on the thread:
That is a snide and smarmy comment of the sort I’d expect from someone who voted for our president. I do not post anything which I do not believe to be true,

I may post speculative ideas, and will present them as such.

Since you’ve “pasted” your insult for everyone else on the thread, I’ll post my own for you. I find you to be an untrustworthy, underhanded kind of “paster,” unqualified to judge my comments or those of anyone else.

I make errors, since unlike you, I don’t know everything. I have and surely will make statements, present ideas, or propose theories which turn out to be dead wrong. I will never present an idea which I know to be wrong, or even questionable.

You are unqualified to “be sure” of what someone else knows or believes. Jerks do that kind of thing regularly.

You may apologize, else discontinue any further conversations with me.
So the First Law of Thermodynamics says energy is not created or destroyed that we’ve observed, as far as we know. This is a far cry from saying it couldn’t have ever happened just once. We need not add an exception for God as described by the Church.
The First Law of Thermodynamics does not come with your qualifiers.

It states unequivocally that energy is not created,

Do you see the period at the end of that sentence? Have you taken a serious, university level physics course lately? Or, ever?
Now who’s quoting dogma? Please do not present atheist dogma as evidence, and I will continue refraining from doing the same with Church dogma.
There are some who cannot distinguish arbitrary statements made by old prophets, that they memorized in first grade to get an “A” in catechism class, from hard won ideas developed by men who gave a subject some serious, conscientious, study, and who tested their conclusions.

Receiving an “A” or even a “B-” in the study of such ideas requires more than the ability to memorize a child’s catechism book. It actually requires the student to think.

Have you memorized dogma? Or have you studied ideas which require differential calculus as a prerequisite to opening the textbook? Methinks you’ve pretty well categorized yourself.

I have no respect for the mind of anyone incapable of distinguishing religious dogma from good physics.

By way of personal advice— Do not be afraid that I might have made an error. Since I intend to think for myself, I will make many errors. My personal pursuit of consciousness should not make you fearful. Better that you be fearful of the consequence of not pursuing the same thing.

Please do not post any further comments directed to me, except your apology for the insult. Thank you.
 
The old testament prophesies were born out completely in Jesus, but in a way no one else at the time could have coneceived.
That only if the story of Jesus was not penned with the Old Testament nearby as a reference.and even then the anonymous authors of the Gospels didn’t get it all that correct.
Take this one for example Isa.53:7 *“He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.” *Now compare it with Jn.18:19 to 37. He didn’t really keep his mouth in neutral there.
Or Zech. 9:9 *“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout O daughter of Jerusalem: behold thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation (margin note- “or saving himself”); lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the fouls of an ***. 10. … and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea and from the river even to the ends of the earth.” * He definitely did not speak peace or anything else to the heathen and his dominion was non-existent.
As far as eye witnesses goes they were so reliable that they couldn’t even agree in their description of the written sign on the cross.
 
It is my thought that quoting any probability for evolution by random mutation is not very meaningful, because a mechanism is not well understood. Random occurrences sifted through careful mechanism can produce beautiful order and appearance of design, as with snowflakes.
Let’s distinguish apples from rocks.

Someday a competent solid-state physicist who gets past QM, and who has personally advanced chaos theory a bit, will devise an equation, probably a fairly simple and purely geometrical equation, which deals with snowflakes.

Perhaps 2, possibly 3 or 4 interconnected equations (e.g. Maxwell’s Equations) will be required to get the job done. So far, it has not been done, and snowflakes remain a mystery. So, why reference an unexplained mystery by way of explanation for another unexplained mystery?

That’s the kind of intellectual obfuscation I’d expect of religious devotees. Don’t feel flattered by my casual use of “intellectual” as an adjective. In this context, it is my kind and gentle way of suggesting that you are not a true agnostic, but a believer in another religion that purports to be a science.

Straddle the fence between serious science and dogmatic religion long enough, you’ll end up with a very sore crotch. You’ll be so busy applying some analgesic ointment that you’ll lack the time and focus to develop non-derivative beliefs of your own.

It is extraordinarily difficult to understand a set of concepts well enough to be able to express them in four equations. You know that. Whoever explains snowflakes will win a Nobel Prize in either physics or mathematics (probably mathematics).

If he wins 20 Nobel prizes, his theories about snowflakes will neither explain nor apply to the development of biological life. How so? Snowflakes do not replicate.

If you think otherwise, explain. Do better than this half-posteriored cobbled-up gobbledegook.

Darwinism is supposedly a science. How can it be that actually applying scientific principles to Darwinism (e.g: experimentally determining and verifying mutation rates) is scientifically valid?

By the way, what is the “careful mechanism” which produces “beautiful order and appearance of design?”

Before this, you came across as a young man making an honest (insofar as that is possible) study of astronomy, with some curiosity about non-scientific ideas. Here, you might as well be a Gary Zukov devotee. Your “careful mechanism” is the same kind of mystical snake oil as “God’s Divine Grace.” Different linguistics, same old krap.

If that kind of neurolinguistical nonsense has made you :“kind of the dorm,” then, hey, man, I hope you’re living in a co-ed dorm.
 
I would bet that most Catholics, if presented with the evidence for Sai Baba’s miracles, would say that we should still not conclude that he is the Son of God.
For a Catholic that would be most natural — but then a Catholic thinks not all things are tangible. In thesis, it would be possible that someone was running up mount Everest and screaming that Chelsea are going to be the English soccer champions.
My point is that “eyewitness testimony” is not good enough to justify a belief in a miracle. The fanatical followers of these spiritual leaders can spread all of the crazy stories that they want, unless I see evidence, I won’t believe it.
Not all evidence for “miracles” is eyewitness testimony. And while in many cases alleged miracles are explained through careful examination, many cases remain which are truly difficult. So your take is: “I do not accept extraordinary claims from eyewitnesses.” It’s ok to pick that dogma but, as I said, I don’t think it’s a convincing one. And the reason is that, by their own nature, “miracles” are not amenable to the scientific protocol; that is, if they exist, they can only be assessed through eyewitnesses. Now, this is why I think that the Fátima “miracle” was extraordinary, since it was fairly assessed by skeptics (although still eyewitnesses).

There is a subset of alleged miracles that are amenable to scientific enquiry: cures. Some time ago I read an assessment of the Lourdes medical cures. Since 1947 they have a medical panel (composed by both believers and non-believers) to assess alleged miracles. The order is very tall: (i) the cure must be sudden, complete and definitive; (ii) from a deadly disease properly diagnosed and clearly prognosed; and (iii) the prescribed treatment could not have contributed to the cure. It is true that the number of alleged miraculous cures has gone down as medical science progresses. That would be expected given the willingness of people to somehow believe that God took pity of them. But that number tended to a lower asymptote instead of zero, suggesting that some stuff will remain unexplained. (I think the number of Lourdes miracles - which have additional theological demands - accepted by the Church are below 70 since the whole thing began there in the mid-XIXth century.) To ignore this wealth of human experiences and dismiss them as illusions is, to me, highly unconvincing.

This said, miracles aren’t especially important theologically, but they are, to Catholics, signs of the love of God.
I find it hard to believe that a God who is supposedly well aware of humanity’s tendency to be a bunch of lying, scheming, self serving people with agendas would honestly expect us to come to such an important decision based on the testimony of total strangers.
If you were Catholic you’d be sinning by pride. 🙂
 
I would disagree. Saying that a belief is true simply because it results in positive things happening seems dangerously close to an Argument from Consequences, which is a well known logical fallacy (link)
OK My bad for including in a thread which was asking for a rigorous proof, when that was not my intention at all. As to the fallacy. I think its just lacking suffient information.
Anyway I would imagine success (which actually can be objectively measured in some places) to be a sympton or a sign of its truth, as opposed to other faiths. Thus it might be useful to believers in order to see how their faith was favoured (by God) as opposed to other faiths, like the one you mention in India.
 
Anyway I would imagine success (which actually can be objectively measured in some places) to be a sympton or a sign of its truth, as opposed to other faiths. Thus it might be useful to believers in order to see how their faith was favoured (by God) as opposed to other faiths, like the one you mention in India.
So, the success of atheism in the past 100 years, going from less than 1% of the population to 15% of the population, is evidence that atheism is true? 😃

Seriously, people believe things for all kinds of reasons. The success of atheism has nothing to do with atheism being true or not true, and the same applies to other beliefs.
Not all evidence for “miracles” is eyewitness testimony. And while in many cases alleged miracles are explained through careful examination, many cases remain which are truly difficult. So your take is: “I do not accept extraordinary claims from eyewitnesses.” It’s ok to pick that dogma but, as I said, I don’t think it’s a convincing one.
I do. Eyewitnesses are not as trustworthy as one would think, I know that from my own experiences. I have had two, yes two, good friends of mine be falsely accused of rape. The reason I know that it was falsely is because both “victims” later admitted that they had made it up. So eyewitness testimony is only somewhat credible to me, even when assessing the truth of ordinary, mundane things like crimes. When I’m trying to determine the truth of something absurd, like “Jesus had magic powers”, eyewitness testimony becomes even less reliable. Do you really expect me to make major, life changing decisions based on something that some stranger claims to have seen?
And the reason is that, by their own nature, “miracles” are not amenable to the scientific protocol; that is, if they exist, they can only be assessed through eyewitnesses.
So if I told you that I had an invisible, immaterial unicorn in my garage, and said that I knew it existed because it had communicated with me, but, due to it being immaterial, it could not be amenable to the scientific protocol, and you simply had to take my word for it, would you believe me? I’m presuming not.
Now, this is why I think that the Fátima “miracle” was extraordinary, since it was fairly assessed by skeptics (although still eyewitnesses).
There are plenty of naturalistic accounts of how the “miracle” could have occurred naturalistically, though I still think that that’s irrelevant, since I presume that you don’t really believe that Khomeini’s face appeared over Iran as a result of Allah’s divine intention, despite the millions of people in Iran who claim that that’s the case, do you?

Also, I don’t think that you answered my question. If your mother had met someone who claimed to see Sai Baba fly through the air, would she have believed them?
There is a subset of alleged miracles that are amenable to scientific enquiry: cures. Some time ago I read an assessment of the Lourdes medical cures. Since 1947 they have a medical panel (composed by both believers and non-believers) to assess alleged miracles. The order is very tall: (i) the cure must be sudden, complete and definitive; (ii) from a deadly disease properly diagnosed and clearly prognosed; and (iii) the prescribed treatment could not have contributed to the cure. It is true that the number of alleged miraculous cures has gone down as medical science progresses. That would be expected given the willingness of people to somehow believe that God took pity of them. But that number tended to a lower asymptote instead of zero, suggesting that some stuff will remain unexplained. (I think the number of Lourdes miracles - which have additional theological demands - accepted by the Church are below 70 since the whole thing began there in the mid-XIXth century.) To ignore this wealth of human experiences and dismiss them as illusions is, to me, highly unconvincing.
All right, tell me which of the cures is your favorite, and I’ll do some research to see if I think that the evidence supports it. However, you do have to keep in mind that these “healings” are easily faked. Many of the Protestant televangelists pull weird stunts like this all the time, and it later turns out that the victim that was supposedly healed was in the employ of the televangelist, or something along those lines. Considering all of the fraudulent healings that abound, I would need pretty solid evidence to believe stuff like this, hopefully you can understand why.
If you were Catholic you’d be sinning by pride. 🙂
I never claimed to be without flaws myself, just that other people have them and that’s why I can’t trust them. Like I said, two good friends of mine almost went to prison for a long time because two scheming little girls falsely accused them. I’ve seen enough of human nature not to trust it.

V
 
Einstein’s Theory of Relativity postulates that time stands still when an object, or “everything in the entire universe” (when arguing the beginning of time), is moving EQUAL to the speed of light, which is 186,000 miles per second. Time theoretically is REVERSED and moves backwards when an object or “everything in the entire universe” travels FASTER than the speed of light. If the object or “everything in the entire universe” can travel faster than the speed of light and therefore time is reversed, then, if we wait long enough, we can reach the theoretical “beginning of time” according to godless theory. What happens if we reach it? There’s no reason to believe we can’t continue right on past “the beginning of time” since we traveled there. There can’t be a wall or some other existence to stop us from reaching it unless that entity exists infinitesimally, which necessitates a choice between God and actual infinity. But, reaching the beginning ot time would negate the very definition of it, and make it a falsehood.

Any travel faster than the speed of light that takes us right past “the beginning of time” would negate it’s definition. This also negates a definition of a godless “end of time” since we are simply bouncing around along a linear continuum of forward or reverse according to our speed relative to the speed of light.

Of course, one could argue that Einstein is wrong. Otherwise, the only 2 choices are God created the universe, or an actual infinity exists where it’s mystery is permanently unknowable by definition, and science is inherently flawed. Why do people have such passionate beliefs in something that is unknowable??? They must abandon their belief that they are academically superior to the religious since no logical person could believe that something so inherently flawed (science) could be superior unless they are selectively closing their minds to arguments like mine and THEY HAVE BLIND FAITH IN SCIENCE WHICH IS PERMANENTLY AND INHERENTLY FLAWED.

Hmmm. Blind Faith. Sounds familiar. Where’s the moral superiority over us religious people now? The university profs are threatening students with low grades. Perhaps they should ask for a tuition refund. We need education, not propaganda.

The romantic lovers follow His code of behaviour and selflessly donate their lives to raise the next generation in His name and the selfish choose to take the easy way out. Only by giving away your life do you really learn how to live. Just think about what motivated Mother Theresa. If only more people would believe in His Covenant for behaviour and trust in His Way.
 
So, the success of atheism in the past 100 years, going from less than 1% of the population to 15% of the population, is evidence that atheism is true? 😃
I think you must have misunderstood. If you want to measure success in figures, then Christianity at a third of the worlds population for nearly 2000years is numero uno and thats the point.
15% for atheism is close, but no cigar my friend.
What great works of art, literature, archictecture has atheism or any other non-christian inspired that beats the greatest of christianity over the period of our era spanning 2000 years?
Even in the realm of science (which atheists now try to proclaim as their own and no one elses) there are probably more “great” catholic scientists than atheists.
Seriously, people believe things for all kinds of reasons. The success of atheism has nothing to do with atheism being true or not true, and the same applies to other beliefs.
Well I already apologised for going off topic, but of course strictly speaking it cant be proved. Most things we believe in are approximations. That doesnt mean that everything is a shade of grey and not black and white. Its just that we havent the mathematical or logical tools to describe the Truth yet. Hence our need for revealtion.
Anyway its more democratic and egalitarian that religion is revelaved rather than being left exclusively for the great minds.
 
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