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TriuneUnity
Guest
This is most certainly true. None of it, however, involves expiating our sins. He has already purified us fully in the sight of God. If He has not, then we do not have a savior.
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K
KathleenGee
Guest
He is our savior, but we cooperate with Him when we now have our mission to grow in Him and extend Him into the world.
The just man sins 7 times a day. To go to confession, to receive absolution, to confess the same sins…my pastor says our sin he hears the most is anger. Driving, seeing misappropriation, corruption, it brings people to anger and we must always be charitable to everyone.
It is not good to indulge in one’s self. I think our culture has been very self-indulgent, many good people have been, we have been, eating, drinking, and being merry. So we have to reflect, then, are we living in the Lord’s grace beginning with morning prayer and offering?
Indulgences are very hard for people outside to understand. As Hesychios says, the Latin rite can appear very legalistic. But recall, ours is a universal church of many regions of the world, and the church has to always work for truth and practice, an ongoing work…with few laborers.
The merits and works we draw on are drawn from Christ Himself. I catch myself in ordinary sin, call upon Him to stand in that place in my heart, but then I see myself doing the same thing again…cycle. Jesus said to do penance less we likewise perish…indulgences are a type of penance.
As I am practicing, I am told ahead there will be an indulgence, don’t do the practice for it, but acknowledge it, and draw it to my sinful nature. I am sharing that from personal experience because people here have drawn on some good resources, some quite detailed, and have not been effective in helping people understand.
The just man sins 7 times a day. To go to confession, to receive absolution, to confess the same sins…my pastor says our sin he hears the most is anger. Driving, seeing misappropriation, corruption, it brings people to anger and we must always be charitable to everyone.
It is not good to indulge in one’s self. I think our culture has been very self-indulgent, many good people have been, we have been, eating, drinking, and being merry. So we have to reflect, then, are we living in the Lord’s grace beginning with morning prayer and offering?
Indulgences are very hard for people outside to understand. As Hesychios says, the Latin rite can appear very legalistic. But recall, ours is a universal church of many regions of the world, and the church has to always work for truth and practice, an ongoing work…with few laborers.
The merits and works we draw on are drawn from Christ Himself. I catch myself in ordinary sin, call upon Him to stand in that place in my heart, but then I see myself doing the same thing again…cycle. Jesus said to do penance less we likewise perish…indulgences are a type of penance.
As I am practicing, I am told ahead there will be an indulgence, don’t do the practice for it, but acknowledge it, and draw it to my sinful nature. I am sharing that from personal experience because people here have drawn on some good resources, some quite detailed, and have not been effective in helping people understand.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
When Christ when to the altar of the cross, bore the wrath of God against the transgressions of all of humanity… I wasn’t even born yet. I do not, therefore, cooperate with anything that He does to reconcile me to my God. We certainly do cooperate with Him when we obey Him and when we do His work, as you mentioned. That is a completely different issue than indulgences and purgatory, however.
I agree. But again, none of this has anything to do with expiating sin in purgatory or attaining to eternal life. It is a free gift, by grace, through faith, in Christ.
The world behaves this way because unbelievers in the world have not repented and believed the Gospel. In other words, they aren’t justified. So they are not going to act like they are.
And here is the law, Kathleen. The law says you are condemned for doing the same thing over and over again. The law, i.e., your penances and good works, do nothing to change your prior violations of God’s commandments and there is NOTHING you can do to change your sinful nature. The flesh of the old Adam will make sure of that.
But thanks be to God, you have been reborn through Holy Baptism and united to Christ Jesus, who has made full atonement for all the sins you have committed and will commit and has put your sinful nature to death. You are completely, unequivocally free from the condemnation of the law and are perfectly holy in the sight of the Father. Therefore, you needn’t expiate your sins or perform works to counterbalance them. Since you are free from the law’s curse, you can then go about serving your neighbor without worrying about not being perfect in doing so. God doesn’t need your good works, your neighbor does.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, I agree…but I also know that the Church is offering the means of Jesus Christ to draw on throughout my day to make up for my own sinfulness. No sin can enter heaven.
And I also know it is very wrong to be scrupulous as well. Confessors first look for scrupulosity the moment a person enters reconciliation before anything else.
Distracted put a thread out this am that I think touches on some issues of various threads going on right now, 'Fr Mass Readings/Commentary (Early Church deals with a problem…)
Just as a person needs to make an act of faith to renounce one’s self and put on the new man of Jesus Christ, one also needs to make an act of faith to believe that the Catholic Church was instituted by Christ, and that what the administers bind is also bound in heaven.
Indulgences draw on the life of Jesus to further purify and help us to be more in union with Him. I don’t think any sincere believer in Christ, knowing their own weaknesses, thinks they can earn or buy their way into heaven.
The Catholic Church teaches it is grace alone that we are saved. And when I use the word ‘save’, although we can experience heaven on earth, albeit imperfect, we are not truly saved until we are in heaven.
But knowing the problems of understanding indulgences, as I said, I think the doctrines have been covered, and all I can say is experiencing a Catholic in real life and sharing your faith with each other, may be the only way you can better understand.
I don’t know if it is true or not, but a nun composed a prayer that at night time, she called upon the Lord to be as atonement for all her sins. I finished reading this past year, ‘The Fulfillment of All Desire’, a favorite of seminarians on the spiritual life. I have read years ago ‘The Dialogues’ by St. Catherine of Siena, who said 300 years before Martin Luther that we are saved by grace alone. But she didn’t deny purgatory. She explained the walk in perfection, union with God, and each of us, although unique, do walk the same path and we can’t bypass to get over a fence to become more united with the Lord.
But what I found interesting is that as one is purified through life experience, you come to a point where you do enter a new phase of the spiritual life, where you see all your ‘nothingness’ before the Creator, and then begin to have a new confidence in the Lord and His saving mercy…after this period of seeing all your sinfulness…this living on a new dependency on the Lord brings new joy and freedom.
It doesn’t stop the need for penance and remission of sins. But one is freer.
And the story about the sister is that after she died after daily calling upon the Lord to be her atonement for sin, she went straight to heaven. How did anyone find out? there are stories about those who live in the religious world having experiences where a former member returns in some form to share with them wisdom…
Now that makes me recall a book written by a cloistered nun on purgatory. It is called, ‘Manuscript on Purgatory’. Some online Catholic bookstores have it. I read it about the same time of Catherine. It is mystical as Catherine was. (In fact, I find women religious, consecrated virgins and brides to Christ more rich in teachings with the Lord
because of their profound intimacy with Him.)
The closer you come to God the more simpler you are.
And I also know it is very wrong to be scrupulous as well. Confessors first look for scrupulosity the moment a person enters reconciliation before anything else.
Distracted put a thread out this am that I think touches on some issues of various threads going on right now, 'Fr Mass Readings/Commentary (Early Church deals with a problem…)
Just as a person needs to make an act of faith to renounce one’s self and put on the new man of Jesus Christ, one also needs to make an act of faith to believe that the Catholic Church was instituted by Christ, and that what the administers bind is also bound in heaven.
Indulgences draw on the life of Jesus to further purify and help us to be more in union with Him. I don’t think any sincere believer in Christ, knowing their own weaknesses, thinks they can earn or buy their way into heaven.
The Catholic Church teaches it is grace alone that we are saved. And when I use the word ‘save’, although we can experience heaven on earth, albeit imperfect, we are not truly saved until we are in heaven.
But knowing the problems of understanding indulgences, as I said, I think the doctrines have been covered, and all I can say is experiencing a Catholic in real life and sharing your faith with each other, may be the only way you can better understand.
I don’t know if it is true or not, but a nun composed a prayer that at night time, she called upon the Lord to be as atonement for all her sins. I finished reading this past year, ‘The Fulfillment of All Desire’, a favorite of seminarians on the spiritual life. I have read years ago ‘The Dialogues’ by St. Catherine of Siena, who said 300 years before Martin Luther that we are saved by grace alone. But she didn’t deny purgatory. She explained the walk in perfection, union with God, and each of us, although unique, do walk the same path and we can’t bypass to get over a fence to become more united with the Lord.
But what I found interesting is that as one is purified through life experience, you come to a point where you do enter a new phase of the spiritual life, where you see all your ‘nothingness’ before the Creator, and then begin to have a new confidence in the Lord and His saving mercy…after this period of seeing all your sinfulness…this living on a new dependency on the Lord brings new joy and freedom.
It doesn’t stop the need for penance and remission of sins. But one is freer.
And the story about the sister is that after she died after daily calling upon the Lord to be her atonement for sin, she went straight to heaven. How did anyone find out? there are stories about those who live in the religious world having experiences where a former member returns in some form to share with them wisdom…
Now that makes me recall a book written by a cloistered nun on purgatory. It is called, ‘Manuscript on Purgatory’. Some online Catholic bookstores have it. I read it about the same time of Catherine. It is mystical as Catherine was. (In fact, I find women religious, consecrated virgins and brides to Christ more rich in teachings with the Lord
because of their profound intimacy with Him.)
The closer you come to God the more simpler you are.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
No, it can’t, which is why your High Priest in heaven has already removed all of your sin from the sight of God.
“For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near…For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” - Hebrews 10:1, 14
I wouldn’t accuse them of thinking that. Be that as it may, however, it doesn’t change the fact that they believe something they are doing is reconciling them with God. Which is the same thing.
Grace alone, yes. That isn’t the debate. Despite that Rome teaches it is by grace alone, it still teaches that grace is insufficient. I agree that we will not be fully saved, really, until Christ returns and we are resurrected. But saved is more than justified and reconciled to God. That, we already have.
Your sins were fully remitted at the cross.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Then why did the Lord give the Apostles the power to forgive sin, and they did choose their successors to head local churches, on the evening of the Resurrection??
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TriuneUnity
Guest
To proclaim to those who believe their preaching of the Gospel that their sins are forgiven. This is what Absolution is, a statement that Christ has forgiven all of our sins when we repent and believe the Gospel.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Then that is where we cannot look at the Bible alone, but to the beginnings and practices of the Early Church. I would say that would then trivialize our inclination to backslide…and I would then not even see that work of Our Lord as being of much consequence. Why bother if all we have to do is turn to Jesus and be saved…too easy…and on the evening of the Resurrection…that day changed time itself…too life changing to simply have the apostles do another teaching.
My Dominican preacher said that confession was infrequent in those days because people faced being reported on every day until Christianity became legal.
And when they did confess—there were oaths made at Mass to not lie, steal or commit adultery, they had to go before the congregation…a real incentive in itself not to be a repeat offender…and they still had a wait until they could receive Holy Communion.
People did go face to face to a priest. Then the Irish with their sensitive souls, brought in the confessional box.
My Dominican preacher said that confession was infrequent in those days because people faced being reported on every day until Christianity became legal.
And when they did confess—there were oaths made at Mass to not lie, steal or commit adultery, they had to go before the congregation…a real incentive in itself not to be a repeat offender…and they still had a wait until they could receive Holy Communion.
People did go face to face to a priest. Then the Irish with their sensitive souls, brought in the confessional box.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Triune, I have to get going today…lots to do…suffering from neck injury as well…so be back later…
Take care,
kathleen
Take care,
kathleen
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
It’s easy for us. It wasn’t easy for Him who is eternal to be separated from His Father and bear the weight of the sins of the entire world. I wouldn’t want to be in the position of calling that cheap grace. He made the sacrifice, because we can’t.
T
thegreypiper
Guest
Jeebus Xmas, Mick, if that isn’t the snarkiest troll I’ve seen around here in a while, I dunno what is.What is your objection to the Catholic doctrine of Indulgences?
a) That it isn’t in the Bible?
b) That it renders confession of sins pointless?
c) That it assumes there’s a place called purgatory?
d) That it portrays God as some sort of celestial Shylock?
e) That it effectively turned Western Christianity into a religion of works?
f) Other?
Curiously,
Mick
PS: Also Orthodox, but would not stoop to such a smarmy gimmick. Well, maybe with fundamentalists, but not good RCs.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
The Church teaches that we are reborn in Baptism and all sins prior to that are wiped clean. So we agree with you on this. The rest we do not agree and quite clearly you are wrong too.
(1) Future sin committed need to be repented of. Jesus atonement is insofar we repent of any sins that we commit. Sin separates us from God; Jesus’ atonement bridges the gap of this separation when we repent of our sin.
(2) God actually needs our good work! In essence no, He does not have to, but He chooses to. Like He does not have to die but He chooses to. God needs us to do those good work as much as our needy neighbors because He wants to use us. The scripture says we are co-workers in the Lord’s farm.
C
cruisin
Guest
I think the stumbling block is the word easy. We as humans don’t want it to be easy.
We beleieve that we have to do something to pay it back, because some how we feel unworth of the Cross. So we build in exception to make us feel justified.
Christ said my yoke is easy…
I think that us humans really struggle with the concept that God did it all,
**all we have to do in response, is the good works that we where created for in the first place. **
To me the idea of indulgences falls flat in the face of what Paul writes in Romans.
Romans 8
**Ro 8:1 For this cause those who are in Christ Jesus will not be judged as sinners. **
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law was not able to do because it was feeble through the flesh, God, sending his Son in the image of the evil flesh, and as an offering for sin, gave his decision against sin in the flesh:
Ro 8:4 So that what was ordered by the law might be done in us, who are living, not in the way of the flesh, but in the way of the Spirit.
I see no place in Romans or in scripture that tells me that the apostles depended on the works of another human being for his salvation. they where all dependent on Christ.
We build laws and rules back in to make us feel more comfortable.
If I would read Hebrews chap 11. I would see a list of murderers, harlots, drunkards, sinners of all shapes and sizes… but counted because of there faith and Trust in God not by their deeds or the deeds of others.
just my 2 cents… thanks…
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SSTeacher
Guest
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Reuben_J
Guest
And where did he say that and what he actually said?
There is none and nobody says that either. So to whom you are trying to preach?
Nonsense. Faith alone is a dead faith. If you keep on murdering you will sure end up in a place where you don’t want to be. Good work does not save you per se but it will lead you to be a better person. And nobody says that good work earns us salvation, in case if you have any idea that people think it is so.We build laws and rules back in to make us feel more comfortable.
If I would read Hebrews chap 11. I would see a list of murderers, harlots, drunkards, sinners of all shapes and sizes… but counted because of there faith and Trust in God not by their deeds or the deeds of others.
just my 2 cents… thanks…
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Amen, cruisin.I think the stumbling block is the word easy. We as humans don’t want it to be easy.
We beleieve that we have to do something to pay it back, because some how we feel unworth of the Cross. So we build in exception to make us feel justified.
Christ said my yoke is easy…
I think that us humans really struggle with the concept that God did it all,
**all we have to do in response, is the good works that we where created for in the first place. **
To me the idea of indulgences falls flat in the face of what Paul writes in Romans.
Romans 8
**Ro 8:1 For this cause those who are in Christ Jesus will not be judged as sinners. **
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law was not able to do because it was feeble through the flesh, God, sending his Son in the image of the evil flesh, and as an offering for sin, gave his decision against sin in the flesh:
Ro 8:4 So that what was ordered by the law might be done in us, who are living, not in the way of the flesh, but in the way of the Spirit.
I see no place in Romans or in scripture that tells me that the apostles depended on the works of another human being for his salvation. they where all dependent on Christ.
We build laws and rules back in to make us feel more comfortable.
If I would read Hebrews chap 11. I would see a list of murderers, harlots, drunkards, sinners of all shapes and sizes… but counted because of there faith and Trust in God not by their deeds or the deeds of others.
just my 2 cents… thanks…
Jesus did it all. Humans need to stop trying to share in the credit.
C
cruisin
Guest
I thought this thread is
"What is your objection to the Catholic doctrine of Indulgences?"
reuben said:
Nonsense. Faith alone is a dead faith. If you keep on murdering you will sure end up in a place where you don’t want to be. Good work does not save you per se but it will lead you to be a better person. And nobody says that good work earns us salvation, in case if you have any idea that people think it is so.
cruisins response.
Nonsense: Did you actually read chapter 11?
Hebrews chapter 11 doesn’t say that and I never said that, either. Faith demands a response Abraham was counted as righteous before he was circumsized. not after. His faith was counted as complete after going to the mountain to sacrifice his son… not because of the act itself but because he fully and completely, trusted God and God Alone. this is what God demands.
you totally missed my point, because you refused to take the time to think about it. The list is there, not because of the acts they committed, because if they where being judge by there acts then none would make the cut… They are there becuase of their faith. did you notice that even Sampson made the grade.
To me the whole idea of indulgences creates something that I don’t see God ever implementing. My conclusion, based on the evidence of scripture. If you disagree I can accept that. But I think your wrong.
Saul also thought he was “right” because of a couple thousand years of Tradition, as part of Gods chosen people.
I cannot preach to one who has deaf ears… for then the words become silent…
Are you feeling guilty?
chow, I’m not going to get in a big long arguement with you. cause in the end we will still disagree on the subject… unless your willing to come over to my side now.
"What is your objection to the Catholic doctrine of Indulgences?"
reuben said:
Nonsense. Faith alone is a dead faith. If you keep on murdering you will sure end up in a place where you don’t want to be. Good work does not save you per se but it will lead you to be a better person. And nobody says that good work earns us salvation, in case if you have any idea that people think it is so.
cruisins response.
Nonsense: Did you actually read chapter 11?
Hebrews chapter 11 doesn’t say that and I never said that, either. Faith demands a response Abraham was counted as righteous before he was circumsized. not after. His faith was counted as complete after going to the mountain to sacrifice his son… not because of the act itself but because he fully and completely, trusted God and God Alone. this is what God demands.
you totally missed my point, because you refused to take the time to think about it. The list is there, not because of the acts they committed, because if they where being judge by there acts then none would make the cut… They are there becuase of their faith. did you notice that even Sampson made the grade.
To me the whole idea of indulgences creates something that I don’t see God ever implementing. My conclusion, based on the evidence of scripture. If you disagree I can accept that. But I think your wrong.
Saul also thought he was “right” because of a couple thousand years of Tradition, as part of Gods chosen people.
I cannot preach to one who has deaf ears… for then the words become silent…
Are you feeling guilty?
chow, I’m not going to get in a big long arguement with you. cause in the end we will still disagree on the subject… unless your willing to come over to my side now.
C
cruisin
Guest
Triune,
I think this is what Luther saw as one of the big problems. The Church was basically Robbing it’s people.
I haven’t seen the movie Luther yet, but want to. have you seen it? I was told it gives a pretty good portrayal of the times.
Cruisin
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Going back,
I think the first issue is that you do not believe in the sacramental priesthood.
The second is you do not believe in the sacramental Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.
And third, you do not understand that when the sacramental and physical union of Jesus Christ is broken by willful, deliberate mortal sin in the breaking of the commandments, it takes sacramental confession with a priest to be restored to the reception of the Eucharist.
Because there is such high integrity of having the Lord remain among us…and as I said earlier, we are not supposed to approach the Lord irreverently or without faith…as this is some of the sacrileges and abuses that led to past inquisitions.
Because you have not experienced such profound presence of the Lord in the sacraments, you cannot really reject what you do not know.
And to say the Church was robbing Catholics is a slur when the Church has given us the Lord Himself.
So in spite of the abuses and corruption of the clerics, in no way do their sins affect the integrity of the sacraments.
We can never repay the priests for giving us the Lord.
The other problem, and I myself need to have more formal education, is that the Bible as a book, ended with Revelations and the last apostle, John. Revelation of God ends with Christ. But the kingdom of Christ is beginning with the Church…His legacy to us.
We need to study Church History to see how it developed and the problems that arose, and what the Church did to resolve it…and the resolution had to uphold the universal faith held by all believers throughout the world. That is why context is important…you do not look at one Church Father or one saint…but the teaching evolved from them that is affirmed and upheld by the Holy Father and all the bishops…Ours is the universal church, instituted by Christ, not a congregation or denomination founded by one man. It is also a human institution comprised of sinners.
And yes, the Lord said His burden is light, His yoke is easy. Learning to live on the Lord is a conversion process we must all go through.
I shared with you yesterday, Triune Unity, a little reference to the walk in perfection in the spiritual life, drawing on the mystics who helped the faithful, including those clerics who remained pure during the times prior and during the Reformation.
You and Cruisin would do well to research the magnificent life of the saints who came in those times…You look at the Church as if it were totally corrupt…in every diocese there were many faithful bishops, priests, and devout.
Jesus said He would leave us His Spirit Who would teach us many things and He told His apostles that they would do much more than He…that what the Lord is also implying is a new testament of what is to come of His church. He gave Peter the keys to heaven, to bind and unbind…He is giving His authority to His disciple and followers to create, form, build a church.
When people use Scripture to show the Catholic Church is wrong, it is useless to me. You are quoting the Scriptures at the beginning of the Church. Its history and work was just beginning. Holy Scriptures and Sacred Tradition are inseparable and the Holy Spirit provides the transmission of faith in Jesus Christ. When we attend Sunday public Mass, we relate not with alot of emotions or hear sermons about the Old Testament and what happened before Christ. Instead we hear the Old and New Testament readings in context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It is Jesus Christ Who sustains the Church. I believe this accusation of Catholic ‘works’ is a sham. The Gospel calls us to pick up the cross and follow Christ, to extend His presence into the world as His own witnesses… And we have the Church to give us greater access to the life and merits of Jesus Christ to further atone our inclination to sin.
Jesus removes the bad trees that do not bear fruit. The Church is self-reforming, continually changing, constantly reevaluating. I know because I have worked fraternally among the clergy and bishops.
Jesus does not say come to the Bible. He says come to Me at the banquet table. He speaks of heaven as being at the banquet table…and the very last image of Revelations is the Mass.
I think the first issue is that you do not believe in the sacramental priesthood.
The second is you do not believe in the sacramental Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.
And third, you do not understand that when the sacramental and physical union of Jesus Christ is broken by willful, deliberate mortal sin in the breaking of the commandments, it takes sacramental confession with a priest to be restored to the reception of the Eucharist.
Because there is such high integrity of having the Lord remain among us…and as I said earlier, we are not supposed to approach the Lord irreverently or without faith…as this is some of the sacrileges and abuses that led to past inquisitions.
Because you have not experienced such profound presence of the Lord in the sacraments, you cannot really reject what you do not know.
And to say the Church was robbing Catholics is a slur when the Church has given us the Lord Himself.
So in spite of the abuses and corruption of the clerics, in no way do their sins affect the integrity of the sacraments.
We can never repay the priests for giving us the Lord.
The other problem, and I myself need to have more formal education, is that the Bible as a book, ended with Revelations and the last apostle, John. Revelation of God ends with Christ. But the kingdom of Christ is beginning with the Church…His legacy to us.
We need to study Church History to see how it developed and the problems that arose, and what the Church did to resolve it…and the resolution had to uphold the universal faith held by all believers throughout the world. That is why context is important…you do not look at one Church Father or one saint…but the teaching evolved from them that is affirmed and upheld by the Holy Father and all the bishops…Ours is the universal church, instituted by Christ, not a congregation or denomination founded by one man. It is also a human institution comprised of sinners.
And yes, the Lord said His burden is light, His yoke is easy. Learning to live on the Lord is a conversion process we must all go through.
I shared with you yesterday, Triune Unity, a little reference to the walk in perfection in the spiritual life, drawing on the mystics who helped the faithful, including those clerics who remained pure during the times prior and during the Reformation.
You and Cruisin would do well to research the magnificent life of the saints who came in those times…You look at the Church as if it were totally corrupt…in every diocese there were many faithful bishops, priests, and devout.
Jesus said He would leave us His Spirit Who would teach us many things and He told His apostles that they would do much more than He…that what the Lord is also implying is a new testament of what is to come of His church. He gave Peter the keys to heaven, to bind and unbind…He is giving His authority to His disciple and followers to create, form, build a church.
When people use Scripture to show the Catholic Church is wrong, it is useless to me. You are quoting the Scriptures at the beginning of the Church. Its history and work was just beginning. Holy Scriptures and Sacred Tradition are inseparable and the Holy Spirit provides the transmission of faith in Jesus Christ. When we attend Sunday public Mass, we relate not with alot of emotions or hear sermons about the Old Testament and what happened before Christ. Instead we hear the Old and New Testament readings in context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It is Jesus Christ Who sustains the Church. I believe this accusation of Catholic ‘works’ is a sham. The Gospel calls us to pick up the cross and follow Christ, to extend His presence into the world as His own witnesses… And we have the Church to give us greater access to the life and merits of Jesus Christ to further atone our inclination to sin.
Jesus removes the bad trees that do not bear fruit. The Church is self-reforming, continually changing, constantly reevaluating. I know because I have worked fraternally among the clergy and bishops.
Jesus does not say come to the Bible. He says come to Me at the banquet table. He speaks of heaven as being at the banquet table…and the very last image of Revelations is the Mass.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
Kathleen,
you know that there are many people who believe in all the things you mentioned and are familiar with the saints and very holy that do not believe in indulgences, right?
By your argument any doctrine developed by Catholic Church would be correct. If you believe that it is fine, but it is totally useless in any discussion of doctrine.
PS, I would be surprised if as a Lutheran TriuneUnity did not believe in the Sacramental Eucharist.
- Status