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dzheremi
Guest
Okay. My only point is that you do not need to believe in purgatory as those in the Roman church do in order to justify praying for the dead.
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Victor_Claveau
Guest
I respectfully disagree. It is only logical to assume that prayer for the dead does infer the existence of a state or place other than heaven. I believe there is ample evidence that the Orthodox theology pertaining to this matter is incorrect. The doctrine of Purgatory is found in the New Testament as well.
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dzheremi
Guest
I am not entirely sure I believe in or even fully understand the teachings of either communion regarding the soul after death. I just know that indulgences strike me as odd, and since they seem intrinsically tied with purgatory, I’m skeptical of that concept as well.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Victor,
Sorry, I think I am going through memory loss today…Yes, St. Bernadette’s vision of Mary and the theology of Mary’s Immaculate Conception was debated for millenium but in 1856…it was declared…I mixing up with Assumption of Mary into heaven…
Thank you very much for all your well founded education of our faith and you are a great help as a newcomer…Welcome!
kathleen
Sorry, I think I am going through memory loss today…Yes, St. Bernadette’s vision of Mary and the theology of Mary’s Immaculate Conception was debated for millenium but in 1856…it was declared…I mixing up with Assumption of Mary into heaven…
Thank you very much for all your well founded education of our faith and you are a great help as a newcomer…Welcome!
kathleen
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KathleenGee
Guest
I have seen a wide gamut of either drawing on resources on purgatory and indulgences, as well as trying to share every day practice…but wonder if anyone can understand without life in the Catholic Church…just wondering…
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Victor_Claveau
Guest
Please continue to study. In time, you will understand both doctrines. Everything the Catholic Church teaches makes perfect sense when you have all the pieces of the puzzle. God is not a God of confusion and His Church teaches only His full truth.
You will find more information here:
victorclaveau.com/htm_html/my%20articles/explaining%20purgatory.htm
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Victor_Claveau
Guest
Kathleen
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Reuben_J
Guest
Victor Claveau:
Both posts are pertinent to the subject of purgatory.
I also find no instances of ‘perfection’, ‘purification’, ‘refined’ being done in heaven. Nevertheless and rightly, nothing clean can enter heaven. If we are to be ‘refined’ by the ‘refiner fire’, either it is here on earth or both here on earth and the afterlife, then there must be a place there that happens. If it is also done in the afterlife, it cannot be either in hell or heaven but someplace elsewhere in between which logically would point to purgatory.
Purgatory is Biblical otherwise to deny it Christians would have to fall back with the argument:
(1) You don’t have to pray for the deads because they are either in heaven or in hell and prayers would not change that outcome (some Protestants position).
(2) You pray for the deads so that their souls which are already in heaven will be further perfected. (Orthodox’)
Both positions are untenable biblically. In (1) if the person goes to heaven with small sins still unrepented of then he/she does not pay for it to the ‘last penny’. Logically according to this position he/she should go to hell.
As for (2), it would be contradicting Rev 21:27 (as have been mentioned).
M
mardukm
Guest
Dear sister Kathleen,
So I don’t know why Orthodox not in communion with Rome need to make an issue out of this. It’s ironic that Orthodox not in communion with Rome accuse the Latin Church of needless definitions, yet in their reaction to these definitions, they easily demonstrate their own penchant for definitions from the opposite angle.
Blessings,
Marduk
Yes! I myself don’t get mired in the specifics of what goes on in the afterlife. To me, the effect of prayer to God for a soul is Grace for the soul. And the effect of a request for indulgence by God for a soul is also Grace for the soul. In both cases, as well, the source is Christ’s Sacrifice.
So I don’t know why Orthodox not in communion with Rome need to make an issue out of this. It’s ironic that Orthodox not in communion with Rome accuse the Latin Church of needless definitions, yet in their reaction to these definitions, they easily demonstrate their own penchant for definitions from the opposite angle.
Blessings,
Marduk
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Reuben_J
Guest
I guess we are right after all when we say it is all semantic. But Orthodox are very serious about semantic and in the process they are defining things (as well) even though they claim that they don’t.
I think it is already a definition to state that ‘souls are perfected in heaven’ to avoid agreeing to the existence of purgatory.
I think it is already a definition to state that ‘souls are perfected in heaven’ to avoid agreeing to the existence of purgatory.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
There is another reason besides our lack of knowledge of the state of an individual’s soul at death that allows for praying for them.
God is not confined by time. Prayers made now by you or me may be “applied” by God, should he choose, in the future or the past. That is, I can petition for some kind of help for an individual, and God can give that help before I actually make the petition.
Thus prayers for the dead may actually be effectual before we make them, before the person dies.
God is not confined by time. Prayers made now by you or me may be “applied” by God, should he choose, in the future or the past. That is, I can petition for some kind of help for an individual, and God can give that help before I actually make the petition.
Thus prayers for the dead may actually be effectual before we make them, before the person dies.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Are Catholics the only Christians who live out the scriptures here, while everyone else has rejected Apostolic Traditions and biblical teachings, to accept and reject as one pleases to believe?
It appears those who reject works of indulgences and purgatory, are living in contradiction to scripture by faith alone which is dead. For scripture reveals indulgences one of may ways of working out your salvation with fear and trembling so as to be purified either by indulgences or purgatory.
It appears non catholic Christians are trying to force a “sola fide” man made theology which conflicts with the Apostolic Traditions and Scriptural revelations of faith by works which is the full deposit of the Apostolic Christian faith.
Matthew 5: 48 So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Philippians 2: 12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, **work out your salvation with fear and trembling. **
James 2: 6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? **
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works**.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus,** that faith without works is useless**?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and **faith was completed by the works. **
24 **See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. **
What does this have to with indulgences and purgatory? Indulgences are practiced by the Children of God with faith from works. Purgatory is the cleansing by fire before we come into the presence of God. Purgatory is not for the damned these will go to fiery Gehenna (lake of fire) but for the Children of God who will be purged or cleansed as by fire.
Heb. 12:29 -** God is a consuming fire **
1Corinthians 3:13 **the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. **
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 **But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire. **16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Peter 1: 6 In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, **
7
so that the genuineness of your faith,** more precious than gold that is perishable even **though tested by fire, **may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor **at the revelation of Jesus Christ. **
9
**as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls. **
Jude 1: 23
**save others by snatching them out of the fire; on others have mercy with fear, **
.
Rev. 3: 18
**I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire **14 so that you may be rich, and white garments to put on so that your shameful nakedness may not be exposed, and buy ointment to smear on your eyes so that you may see.
19
**Those whom I love, I reprove and chastise. Be earnest, therefore, and repent. **
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother dzheremi,
Purgatory is intended only for the righteous. It is a state of undergoing perfection. It does not mean that the Catholic Church does not pray generally for the dead. In fact, in the Latin Church, their Eucharistic Prayer 2 and 3 contain general prayers for the dead.
Another poster stated that an Eastern Orthodox priest told him that Purgatory is in heaven. It might interest you to know that there is nothing in the dogma of Purgatory that would prevent someone from holding this belief.
Blessings
I’ve always understood “rest for their souls” as a simile for “enter into heaven.”
Purgatory is intended only for the righteous. It is a state of undergoing perfection. It does not mean that the Catholic Church does not pray generally for the dead. In fact, in the Latin Church, their Eucharistic Prayer 2 and 3 contain general prayers for the dead.
Another poster stated that an Eastern Orthodox priest told him that Purgatory is in heaven. It might interest you to know that there is nothing in the dogma of Purgatory that would prevent someone from holding this belief.
Blessings
M
mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Daedalus,
Blessings,
Marduk
Does not Scripture (Book of Hebrews) teach us that if we are not sons of God, He would not chastise us? His chastisement is for our holiness, so you bet that punishment can cleanse one’s soul.
To me, it reflects legalism. We need to get to the basics to see what unites us, instead of focusing so much on definitions. There is nothing in the dogma of Purgatory that can be possibly be objectionable to Orthodox not in Communion with Rome or Anglicans.
Blessings,
Marduk
B
Bluegoat
Guest
Are Catholics the only Christians who live out the scriptures here, while everyone else has rejected Apostolic Traditions and biblical teachings, to accept and reject as one pleases to believe?
It appears those who reject works of indulgences and purgatory, are living in contradiction to scripture by faith alone which is dead. For scripture reveals indulgences one of may ways of working out your salvation with fear and trembling so as to be purified either by indulgences or purgatory.
It appears non catholic Christians are trying to force a “sola fide” man made theology which conflicts with the Apostolic Traditions and Scriptural revelations of faith by works which is the full deposit of the Apostolic Christian faith.
Matthew 5: 48 So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Philippians 2: 12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, **work out your salvation with fear and trembling. **
James 2: 6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? **
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works**.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus,** that faith without works is useless**?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and **faith was completed by the works. **
24 **See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. **
What does this have to with indulgences and purgatory? Indulgences are practiced by the Children of God with faith from works. Purgatory is the cleansing by fire before we come into the presence of God. Purgatory is not for the damned these will go to fiery Gehenna (lake of fire) but for the Children of God who will be purged or cleansed as by fire.
Heb. 12:29 -** God is a consuming fire **
1Corinthians 3:13 **the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. **
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 **But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire. **16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Peter 1: 6 In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, **
7
so that the genuineness of your faith,** more precious than gold that is perishable even **though tested by fire, **may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor **at the revelation of Jesus Christ. **
9
**as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls. **
Jude 1: 23
**save others by snatching them out of the fire; on others have mercy with fear, **
.
Rev. 3: 18
**I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire **14 so that you may be rich, and white garments to put on so that your shameful nakedness may not be exposed, and buy ointment to smear on your eyes so that you may see.
19
**Those whom I love, I reprove and chastise. Be earnest, therefore, and repent. **
Rejecting the idea of purgatory does not mean rejecting works. You must stop imagining that other people are rejecting the place of works, because they are explicitly not doing so. The texts you have given are not clearly arguments for purgatory, or indulgences, either.
Your question if Catholics are the only ones who believe these doctrines is yes. No other Apostolic, catholic orthodox liturgical traditions that follow scripture and tradition accept the doctrines of purgatory or indulgences as necessary, and some reject them outright. This is not a slam-dunk answer to the question by any means, but perhaps it should indicate that the weight of proof that this is not an innovation falls on Catholics in this matter.
Very few of the posts here apologizing for indulgences actually specifically address the problems that posters had with them. There have been posts that waxed eloquent, and many that didn’t even seem to be on the same topic. But the questions asked were specifically related to the doctrine as described by Catholic sources, and so it seems to me that those should be no reason for Catholics to distance themselves from those specific explanations of the doctrines.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Sins committed are in time and space.
We can never be sure the destination of person after death. Some Protestants are dead sure of course about where they would go. And so they say, “I am saved”.
If he/she goes heaven, then no prayer is needed. The same if it’s hell. We pray for them if they are in purgatory which many would fall into this category, we cannot be too sure. If they are in heaven, praise the Lord. No prayer is prayed in vain because prayers are always two ways - petition for the souls concerned and for edifying ourselves. Prayers is an act of love.
This will boggle even the greatest mind among us Catholics. WE are governed by time and space; our actions are governed by time and space; sins are committed in time and space. Prayers are said for the sin committed. Prayers also can be said to strengthen us so that we are strong enough not to fall to temptation.
(But) I have not heard nor able to understand how do we pray for the living when they are dead. We do pray for the living as we pray for each other, and hopefully by our prayers it will change things, like we are moved by grace to repent or avoid sin. But once dead what can the dead person does to undo what he had done?
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Bluegoat
Guest
You are simply wrong about this. I’m not sure what else to say. We are in time, but God is not, and so may act in any way he sees fit.
Do you really mean to say that God can’t act in a person’s life after he is dead? Do you realize the implications of that? We are all living, and dead, to God, since all times are present for him.
There is no rule that says he can only answer a prayer after the “time” when the person prayed it.
The CC says that God has arranged creation in such a way that the results of our free will are taken into account even before we exercise it, before we are born. If this is so, it certainly must include taking into account the affects of our prayers.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
I just do not agree that we cannot pray for the deads (if that’s what you said in your last post).
I find it bizarre that we can only pray while the person is alive and the effect is the same after he is dead. What difference is there to pray for the person whether alive or dead? So why can’t we pray for the dead? If you say yes; we can pray for the deads, then I have no issue with you and please ignore my last post because I could have misunderstood you there.
I know about God not governed by time and space but we are.
H
Hesychios
Guest
It may have been addressed elsewhere (I am coming to this thread late), but this is a banking concept.
I believe that the whole thing is faulty theory that the church is stuck with, because it has been taught in the past. It is based on the notion that sin is not fully forgiven in confession. There must be some sort of satisfaction made to God.
Apostolic churches did not have this theory originally, it only developed in the Roman west.
Now there is no question that some sort of restitution is good and called for, if possible. For instance, if I steal a chair and later am very regretful over that, I should return the chair. If I go to confession and I am absolved for this act of wickedness it does me no good keep sitting on this chair, I should restore it to the rightful owner if this is possible. The priest would be right to instruct me to return it in confession!
But beyond that the Latin church teaches that there may still be a punishment due to God for this escapade and others already confessed. Supposedly the church has loads of Mercy at it’s disposal, the basis of which is the overabundant merits piling up in the church’s accounts in heaven from the acts of saints now with God. These merits can be transferred to you and me if we fulfill the requirements. This is the theory of satisfaction on steroids.
That whole theory is totally unnecessary. God Himself is all Love and merciful, He can see into our hearts. He forgives and that which is absolved in confession is forgiven.
S
SSTeacher
Guest
When I was an Evangelical – particularly when I was a new and zealous convert to Evangelicalism – I daresay I’d probably have scoffed at such a notion. However, once I left the Evangelical world and discovered Orthodoxy, I slowly began to refrain from projecting my feeble ideas onto God and as I did so it gradually became apparent to me that there is no reason why God could not do this. And that’s currently my understanding i.e. that I don’t understand.
So, now, although I do not believe that there’s a place called purgatory, I still pray to God in faith for people that I knew when they walked on earth but who have now passed on. It gives me great comfort to be able to do this, particularly as I’m now able to pray for both my parents. I recognize that other people might be unable to make sense of my stance but that knowledge brings me no discomfort.
Illogically,
Mick
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