A
activeCatholic
Guest
Yet even in the Catholic Church works do not save one
Code:
[Catechism of the Catholic Church](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c3a2.htm#169)
- Status
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
As I was reading this thread it dawned on me that the biblical Catholic doctrine of indulgences has not been adequately applied here;
For one, the opposition has argued incorrectly in regards to this beautiful sacrament of indulgence given to the Church of Jesus Christ.
Those who oppose God’s grace of indulgences are implying it for those to become saved. This is never the case of an indulgence. An Indulgence never removes mortal sin. Indulgence perfects the already child of God who has been forgiven from his mortal confessed sins.
Baptism is the sacrament Jesus instituted and commanded his Church to adminster for the lost souls, to remove every sin, stain of sin, punishment of sin, curses and anything else that sin tries to claim on a soul, Baptism removes these forever. Baptism is never an indulgence as those in opposition are unknowingly making this false assumption.
Indulgences are for the already saved who have fallen into mortal sin (example Adam and Eve, King David, Moses, Aaron, Abraham, Noah, Maccabeean soldiers, St. Peter etc.) and have confessed their sins, God has already forgiven and forgotten their sins.
What is left is justice for those who have been affected by these Godly men sins. Indulgence is for the believer who is called to be perfect just as Christ is perfect. Christ sacrificed his life for our salvation. Indulgence allows the freedom for the child of God to excercise his cross for others by offering an indulgence, which we Catholics are biblically called to imitate Christ in our diakonia self offering and kenosis of self sacrifice.
Indulgence is not a work to be saved or forgiven, this is an incorrect and false assumption. We believe Jesus Christ paid the “full” penalty for our sins to redeem our souls back to God as children of God, whom we call “Abba”, Father. Indulgence is for the children of God, who carry their cross, not the lost who need the waters of baptism to enter the Kingdom of God.
Understanding this principle of indulgence for the already saved who have fallen into temptation as the great men of God did, confessed their sin and God forgave them. But these old covenant men of God needed Jesus to remove the justice demanded from their sin, thus Jesus himself made the indulgence for these men of God, to release them from the chains of death, in his passion, death (descencion into the abode of the dead) and resurrection.
That is why Jesus was able to enter the abode of the dead (purgatory, sheol (Hebrew), hades (Greek)) and set the captives free from the punishment due to their sin, which they had repented and were forgiven.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever more; Jesus has not changed, that is why the body of Jesus Christ his Catholic Church was given the keys to loose and bind on earth, as Jesus our head loose and binds in heaven. The body of Christ and the head Jesus himself are one.
I believe those in opposition to indulgences need to understand what is a corporal sacrifice and a spiritual sacrifice with the correct understanding that an indulgence is for the already forgiven child of God. Indulgence is never for those who are not of the kingdom of God. If you can grasp this mystery then, maybe we can move on to the corporal and spiritual works of God from the members of Jesus body the Catholic Church, in regards to the Christian doctrine and practice of indulgence.
That is my objection for non catholics and those in opposition to indulgences, to have an truthful understanding when indulgence is active among those who are suffering and making up sacrifices lacking in the body of Jesus Christ;
If you can correctly interpret this scripture from the first century, you can grasp God’s mystery that Paul reveals in his teaching of indulgences.
Colossians 1:24
13 **Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, **
25
of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God,
26
the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones,
27
to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
Peace be with you
For one, the opposition has argued incorrectly in regards to this beautiful sacrament of indulgence given to the Church of Jesus Christ.
Those who oppose God’s grace of indulgences are implying it for those to become saved. This is never the case of an indulgence. An Indulgence never removes mortal sin. Indulgence perfects the already child of God who has been forgiven from his mortal confessed sins.
Baptism is the sacrament Jesus instituted and commanded his Church to adminster for the lost souls, to remove every sin, stain of sin, punishment of sin, curses and anything else that sin tries to claim on a soul, Baptism removes these forever. Baptism is never an indulgence as those in opposition are unknowingly making this false assumption.
Indulgences are for the already saved who have fallen into mortal sin (example Adam and Eve, King David, Moses, Aaron, Abraham, Noah, Maccabeean soldiers, St. Peter etc.) and have confessed their sins, God has already forgiven and forgotten their sins.
What is left is justice for those who have been affected by these Godly men sins. Indulgence is for the believer who is called to be perfect just as Christ is perfect. Christ sacrificed his life for our salvation. Indulgence allows the freedom for the child of God to excercise his cross for others by offering an indulgence, which we Catholics are biblically called to imitate Christ in our diakonia self offering and kenosis of self sacrifice.
Indulgence is not a work to be saved or forgiven, this is an incorrect and false assumption. We believe Jesus Christ paid the “full” penalty for our sins to redeem our souls back to God as children of God, whom we call “Abba”, Father. Indulgence is for the children of God, who carry their cross, not the lost who need the waters of baptism to enter the Kingdom of God.
Understanding this principle of indulgence for the already saved who have fallen into temptation as the great men of God did, confessed their sin and God forgave them. But these old covenant men of God needed Jesus to remove the justice demanded from their sin, thus Jesus himself made the indulgence for these men of God, to release them from the chains of death, in his passion, death (descencion into the abode of the dead) and resurrection.
That is why Jesus was able to enter the abode of the dead (purgatory, sheol (Hebrew), hades (Greek)) and set the captives free from the punishment due to their sin, which they had repented and were forgiven.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever more; Jesus has not changed, that is why the body of Jesus Christ his Catholic Church was given the keys to loose and bind on earth, as Jesus our head loose and binds in heaven. The body of Christ and the head Jesus himself are one.
I believe those in opposition to indulgences need to understand what is a corporal sacrifice and a spiritual sacrifice with the correct understanding that an indulgence is for the already forgiven child of God. Indulgence is never for those who are not of the kingdom of God. If you can grasp this mystery then, maybe we can move on to the corporal and spiritual works of God from the members of Jesus body the Catholic Church, in regards to the Christian doctrine and practice of indulgence.
That is my objection for non catholics and those in opposition to indulgences, to have an truthful understanding when indulgence is active among those who are suffering and making up sacrifices lacking in the body of Jesus Christ;
If you can correctly interpret this scripture from the first century, you can grasp God’s mystery that Paul reveals in his teaching of indulgences.
Colossians 1:24
13 **Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, **
25
of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God,
26
the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones,
27
to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
Peace be with you
A
activeCatholic
Guest
I have found some great audio resources about indulgences here:
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/searchprog.asp
The first link is spot on on the topic at hand here
:
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/searchprog.asp
The first link is spot on on the topic at hand here
:
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Gabriel of 12!
D
dzheremi
Guest
How are indulgences sacramental? I don’t recall ever learning anything about the “Sacrament of Indulgence” in RCIA, and as far as I know there is no such sacrament among the 7 recognized within the RCC.
So why are indulgences necessary if the person has already been forgiven? I don’t understand. Seems unnecessary. I was taught that when you’re absolved, you’re absolved. “Go forth and sin no more”.
Again, they have confessed and God has wiped them clean. So…why are indulgences needed or helpful?
Huh?
How so? How is this supposed to work?How do indulgences do this, though? My freedom to “exercise my cross”, as you’ve put it, comes from having willingly accepted it by deciding to follow Christ. Why do I need indulgences to do that? The Orthodox do not have a system of indulgences. Are you willing to say that they do not also follow Christ? Or are somehow not “free” to do so since they don’t have indulgences? I don’t understand.
This seems repetitive. Again: What does an indulgence do that confession does not do? Christ instituted confession. I don’t recall Him ever mentioning anything about indulgences, nor any record of it in the tradition of the undivided Church.
I’m starting to get a headache so I’ll stop here, but please explain how indulgences are necessary when we already have confession. With all due respect, the defense you’ve given here is difficult to follow or find the substance of.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Sacramentals are blessed objects…a Nigerian Catholic is a good apologist and draws on things we normally don’t see…there were followers of the apostles…one carried a picture of St. Jude with him…holy water and holy oil, blessed crucifixes, rosaries, scapulars, religious medals are sacramentals that are used.
We are getting into tradition…these are practices that came from believers over time, and bring with them their own truth of practice…hence, not all truths come from the Bible but from the Church…the Holy Spirit…incarnating one’s faith into one’s culture…
We have countless practices we can draw on to enrichen our life in Christ and live a more sanctified life.
We are getting into tradition…these are practices that came from believers over time, and bring with them their own truth of practice…hence, not all truths come from the Bible but from the Church…the Holy Spirit…incarnating one’s faith into one’s culture…
We have countless practices we can draw on to enrichen our life in Christ and live a more sanctified life.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
What are good works? Simply put they are anything that makes us closer to Christ. Though it is mentioned for us to feed the hungry, clothe he naked, comfort the prisoners and the sicks; a person needs to be ‘moved’ in order that he may do all these. Thus all good works are those activities that make us ‘moved’; that can lead us to be holy. Going to church, gathering together in prayers and visiting Catholic shrines, etc., will help to achieve this end.
In the Sacrament of Penance the guilt of sin is removed, and with it the eternal punishment due to mortal sin; but there still remains the temporal punishment required by Divine justice, and this requirement must be fulfilled either in the present life or in the world to come, i.e., in Purgatory. An indulgence offers the penitent sinner the means of discharging this debt during his life on earth.
This idea of physical penance is not foreign to Catholics. Indulgence contributes to physical penance because we have to work for our money. Though money is given as stipend for mass being said, but the process of accruing the money involves our resources and physical effort.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
This comes as a surprise, really. The ancient Hebrews offered animal sacrifice for the atonement of sins; what else did they do that for?
Since Protestants do not believe that we go to purgatory your argument makes no sense. You do not believe this anyway.
The idea of Penance in Catholicism involves two aspects: the spiritual and the temporal. This in itself already conflicted with Protestants position since you believe Jesus’ action on the cross is sufficient.
However while we do hold to the belief that it is true that Jesus’ death wipes away our sin, the other part call for our action to make up to what it entails in that belief. Just by being regretful is not always sufficient; one has to do restitution too. Prayers are the spiritual aspect of Penance; the other is the physical action that you have to do – like returning back money stolen, work of mercy and any activities that may help to increase your holiness and faith so that you will not commit that sin again.
D
dzheremi
Guest
If this is in response to my question to Gabriel: How do indulgences fit this definition, either? Is an indulgence a physical, tangible argument?
Or farther away from it…
I do not think this is a proper way of looking at tradition (at least not “big-T” church tradition). Tradition is not just “anything that we do that we cannot find written in the Bible”. Tradition is the substance of the faith that has been passed down from the Apostles, through the generations from before the canonization of the Bible to today.
Not to be a stickler, but “their own truth of practice” is a strange sentence. Surely there is one truth, not fashioned from the individual beliefs of any given group but forming the deposit of faith drawn upon by today’s believers, no? I do not get to say “because my people have believed X or Y for years, it is part of church Tradition”, right? Plenty of things are cultural or at least somewhat provincial.
Mhm, though I don’t understand the use of “incarnating” here.
Indeed. I just don’t understand how the system of indulgences does that, that’s all.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
K
KathleenGee
Guest
A Bible can be considered a sacramental…a physical (carnate) object that is an instrument of grace…that draws us deeper into Christ.
All sacramentals bring us closer to the life of Christ. I can have a picture of mountains, pictures that help me reflect on the love of our Heavenly Creator…I can also have a statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus or of Mary, am well versed in the Litany of the Sacred Heart, its devotion and history and have even taught several classes on it…I just look at the picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus over my fireplace…as Jesus is the center of my life and the source of the flame of Divine Charity…that it helps me to reflect on Him in a better way than looking at mountains.
I consider a devout Protestant home one that has a Bible in a prominant place, has Bible verses on the walls, and may be a picture of Jesus. That is good.
My home is more traditional Catholic…so I have contemporary paintings and pictures, as well as some statues and pictures of Christ, a bowl holding our rosaries, a Bible on our fireplace hearth beneath the Sacred Heart picture…some Bible quotes…a picture of St. Francis of Assisi…I also have a little white lamb placed at Mary’s feet, I have another Lamb with a candle also near the Sacred Heart…reflecting the Lord and His meekness like a lamb…as well as His sacrifice…oh I have a crucifix in the living room…some thought my house was like a chapel…I have plants in there, a china cupboard, a TV, a DVR, a case of movies of all sorts…a picture of Mt Timpanogas from Utah that is big…the relgious are sacramentals, most are blessed…oh I also have my holy water in a bottle, and a bottle of holy oil too in the china cupboard.
So you now have an inside view of my living/dining room. Guests who come here always want to sleep in the living room because windows go 3/4’s around it, and it is also my sanctuary when people are out of the house…I can look out at the gardens, roses, and a field. Thank you Lord for my home. People tell me when they come in that Jesus gave me our home. True.
Thou doth protest too much…I did my best on indulgences drawing on my own life and I did not read the economics at all in the same catechism quotes…read them at bedtime and the other folks saw them as monetary…
I have the Inside Line…we are not manipulating the Lord or buying Him off. Works are the effects of His life in us. Jesus is perfection. When we express Him, we express His essence of mercy and love. Nobody is thinking of stacking up duties we just did…or buying our time out of purgatory…I practice them but don’t even ‘add up the bill’. That is the Lord’s call.
I don’t think we can ever explain indulgences because they are hard to explain and understand.
All sacramentals bring us closer to the life of Christ. I can have a picture of mountains, pictures that help me reflect on the love of our Heavenly Creator…I can also have a statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus or of Mary, am well versed in the Litany of the Sacred Heart, its devotion and history and have even taught several classes on it…I just look at the picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus over my fireplace…as Jesus is the center of my life and the source of the flame of Divine Charity…that it helps me to reflect on Him in a better way than looking at mountains.
I consider a devout Protestant home one that has a Bible in a prominant place, has Bible verses on the walls, and may be a picture of Jesus. That is good.
My home is more traditional Catholic…so I have contemporary paintings and pictures, as well as some statues and pictures of Christ, a bowl holding our rosaries, a Bible on our fireplace hearth beneath the Sacred Heart picture…some Bible quotes…a picture of St. Francis of Assisi…I also have a little white lamb placed at Mary’s feet, I have another Lamb with a candle also near the Sacred Heart…reflecting the Lord and His meekness like a lamb…as well as His sacrifice…oh I have a crucifix in the living room…some thought my house was like a chapel…I have plants in there, a china cupboard, a TV, a DVR, a case of movies of all sorts…a picture of Mt Timpanogas from Utah that is big…the relgious are sacramentals, most are blessed…oh I also have my holy water in a bottle, and a bottle of holy oil too in the china cupboard.
So you now have an inside view of my living/dining room. Guests who come here always want to sleep in the living room because windows go 3/4’s around it, and it is also my sanctuary when people are out of the house…I can look out at the gardens, roses, and a field. Thank you Lord for my home. People tell me when they come in that Jesus gave me our home. True.
Thou doth protest too much…I did my best on indulgences drawing on my own life and I did not read the economics at all in the same catechism quotes…read them at bedtime and the other folks saw them as monetary…
I have the Inside Line…we are not manipulating the Lord or buying Him off. Works are the effects of His life in us. Jesus is perfection. When we express Him, we express His essence of mercy and love. Nobody is thinking of stacking up duties we just did…or buying our time out of purgatory…I practice them but don’t even ‘add up the bill’. That is the Lord’s call.
I don’t think we can ever explain indulgences because they are hard to explain and understand.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
These questions sounds quite logical for those who do not believe as can be seen from the posts here and so you do have company to share them with.
Not for the believing Catholics. Even the questions are structured in such a way to set a premise that can only solicit answers that’s not reflecting Catholic belief on this subject.
a) That it isn’t in the Bible?
More often than not, because not all Protestants are the same, but sometimes when it come to question like this, “Is it in the Bible?”, usually they would like to see Biblical verses explicitly confirming the issue in question. But even if they are clearly in the Bible, Protestants would simply claim to understand them differently.
Anyway, to answer the question: It is in the Bible. Try Maccabees. Only do not blame Catholics should it is not in your Bible.
b) That it renders confession of sins pointless?
Again, the premise is set on the assumption that confession of sins is all there is for the forgiveness of sin.
c) That it assumes there’s a place called purgatory?
Purgatory, hades, gahenna, sheol, etc. The only question is: either it is hell or heaven. If this is – then Catholics do not agree with you.
d) That it portrays God as some sort of celestial Shylock?
The language, the language. There are probably no words that are sufficiently adequate in themselves to explain this issue without using analogies that we can identify with. Similarly, like calling God Father.
If you must use the term, then, yes it is. But it is not just for indulgence – but about everything on what finally determines one’s entrance to heaven or not and God is probably a celestial Shylock as you ingeniously mentioned.
e) That it effectively turned Western Christianity into a religion of works?
Why not? Isn’t Christianity a religion of work? Did not Jesus said, “go out to the whole world, not just here in Jerusalem, not just here in Judea but everywhere … “ Surely this must be work. The saints and the martyrs who scoured the earth and who gave their lives for mission and for their belief; surely these are all work.
God bless.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Confession is in the Bible…
On the eve of the Resurrection, the Resurrected Lord appeared to the Apostles…and gave them power to forgive sins…and then in acts, you read how the apostles in turn appointed – not let people come forward by their own choice, the apostles chose those who could represent their local communities/churches in the fullness of faith from the Oral Tradition of Christ.
We ended up drawing on the same sources…and read it through the treasury of Christ’s kingdom.
On the eve of the Resurrection, the Resurrected Lord appeared to the Apostles…and gave them power to forgive sins…and then in acts, you read how the apostles in turn appointed – not let people come forward by their own choice, the apostles chose those who could represent their local communities/churches in the fullness of faith from the Oral Tradition of Christ.
We ended up drawing on the same sources…and read it through the treasury of Christ’s kingdom.
Q
Qoheleth
Guest
. The boys run for it because they are afraid. Although they feel a deep sense of remorse at having broken the window, they do not confess their deeds to Mr. Johnson, afraid of what the consequences of their actions will be. Instead, they determine to cover it up by spending their time doing things to make-up for their behavior. They reason that even if they can’t replace the window, they can do enough good things to outweigh it. They resolve to mow Mr. Johnson’s lawn, wash his car, and do chores around the house. Heck, with all of that effort, he wouldn’t possibly suspect they had done anything wrong! All of this, of course, does nothing to fix the broken window.
The next day, Mr. Johnson walks out to the sidewalk and sees the two boys walking down the street and calls them over in a loud voice. Terrified at the sound, the boys put their heads down, murmur a few choice words under their breath, and shuffle slowly towards Mr. Johnson.
They approach him, voices trembling, and say “Yes, sir?” Mr. Johnson kneels down to the level of the two boys and puts a big smile on his face. “How do you like my new window?” The boys look up at him quickly, wondering what in the world he is talking about. They look over to where the window they had broken was and see not a broken window, but a brand new one, perfectly restored, without a hint of a scratch on it! Stunned in disbelief at what had just yesterday been a smashed antique, all they can manage to utter is a “but, but…” Mr. Johnson’s smile grows even bigger. "I know what happened, boys. You see, I had been watching you playing baseball outside. I knew that what you had done was going to happen. I may be an older man, but I sure aint clueless! That window was very important to me. It’s been in my family for dozens of generations. You had every right to run away. It would have been perfectly okay for me to walk over to your house and demand that you and your family repay me for the damages that you had done.
“But, you see, because I knew what you were going to do and what the consequences would be, I planned ahead. Have you ever met my son?” The boys shook their heads quickly, their minds still swimming in shock. “Well, my son that lives with me, he agreed that when the window was broken, he would pay the full damages. I won’t even begin to mention to you how much that cost. But, so that you get an idea, it cost him everything he owned. I love my son, let me tell you, and he loves me just as much. Although it caused immense pain to watch him give up everything he had worked so hard to achieve in his life to make up for your actions, he was only happy to do it, and I was only happy to accept. All of this was arranged before you ever even broke the window. And so…my window is good as new!”
The boys could only a give a murmur, “But…but…but why!?” Mr. Johnson smiled “Because of the goodness of my heart, boys, all because of that.”
The boys put their heads down again, their eyes welling with tears, and could only whisper “I know we’ve done wrong Mr. Johnson, we broke your window. What can we ever do to make it up to you and to your son?” Mr. Johnson’s brow furrowed. "There is nothing to repay. There’s nothing that you owe me. Everything is back to the way that it was and the way it should be. We are friends now, the both of you, and your family as well. I can’t recall ever having talked to either of you before. Over time, we’ll get to know each other much better, I think!
Mr. Johnson stood up, looking down at the two faces that were now beaming with relief, happiness, and joy at the unbelievable generosity they were just shown. “Now that that is all settled and done with…Look at all the work that needs to be done in this neighborhood!” Mr Johnson looked back and forth over the other houses on the street. “That house over there hasn’t had its lawn mowed, in gosh, ages! And that one, look at that car in the driveway. I bet there’s two years of grime on that thing! None of these people seem to be able to take care of their houses very well, and they can’t afford to fix them up much, it seems.”
The boys looked at Mr. Johnson and then at each other and, filled with the joy and peace that all their schemes to repay Mr. Johnson could never bring them, shouted at the top of their lungs, “Here we are! We’ll go and tell those neighbors right away that everything we planned to do to repay you for the window, we’ll now do for them!”
Mr. Johnson nodded, “Very well boys. When you’re finished with all of your hard work, invite the neighbors to my house later for dinner. All of you can come over for a feast that my son and I have prepared for all of you.”
(No analogy, of course, is perfect.)
HMMM As i read this i noticed that it does not square up with Scripture. You can read the lords attitude about the penalty for wrongdoing in Matt: 5 vs 21-26. "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, “You shall not kill: and whoever kills shall be liable to
judgment.” But i say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment: whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, You fool! shall be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go: first be reconciled to your brother, and then come offer your gift . Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard , and you be put in prison: truly i say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
I think that the actual words of the aforementioned Son and his real attitude towards sin and the responsibility we accrue as we sin is stated here.
Also Luke:12 41-48 More of the Sons attitude toward sin and how he will respond to it. when He returns.
The next day, Mr. Johnson walks out to the sidewalk and sees the two boys walking down the street and calls them over in a loud voice. Terrified at the sound, the boys put their heads down, murmur a few choice words under their breath, and shuffle slowly towards Mr. Johnson.
They approach him, voices trembling, and say “Yes, sir?” Mr. Johnson kneels down to the level of the two boys and puts a big smile on his face. “How do you like my new window?” The boys look up at him quickly, wondering what in the world he is talking about. They look over to where the window they had broken was and see not a broken window, but a brand new one, perfectly restored, without a hint of a scratch on it! Stunned in disbelief at what had just yesterday been a smashed antique, all they can manage to utter is a “but, but…” Mr. Johnson’s smile grows even bigger. "I know what happened, boys. You see, I had been watching you playing baseball outside. I knew that what you had done was going to happen. I may be an older man, but I sure aint clueless! That window was very important to me. It’s been in my family for dozens of generations. You had every right to run away. It would have been perfectly okay for me to walk over to your house and demand that you and your family repay me for the damages that you had done.
“But, you see, because I knew what you were going to do and what the consequences would be, I planned ahead. Have you ever met my son?” The boys shook their heads quickly, their minds still swimming in shock. “Well, my son that lives with me, he agreed that when the window was broken, he would pay the full damages. I won’t even begin to mention to you how much that cost. But, so that you get an idea, it cost him everything he owned. I love my son, let me tell you, and he loves me just as much. Although it caused immense pain to watch him give up everything he had worked so hard to achieve in his life to make up for your actions, he was only happy to do it, and I was only happy to accept. All of this was arranged before you ever even broke the window. And so…my window is good as new!”
The boys could only a give a murmur, “But…but…but why!?” Mr. Johnson smiled “Because of the goodness of my heart, boys, all because of that.”
The boys put their heads down again, their eyes welling with tears, and could only whisper “I know we’ve done wrong Mr. Johnson, we broke your window. What can we ever do to make it up to you and to your son?” Mr. Johnson’s brow furrowed. "There is nothing to repay. There’s nothing that you owe me. Everything is back to the way that it was and the way it should be. We are friends now, the both of you, and your family as well. I can’t recall ever having talked to either of you before. Over time, we’ll get to know each other much better, I think!
Mr. Johnson stood up, looking down at the two faces that were now beaming with relief, happiness, and joy at the unbelievable generosity they were just shown. “Now that that is all settled and done with…Look at all the work that needs to be done in this neighborhood!” Mr Johnson looked back and forth over the other houses on the street. “That house over there hasn’t had its lawn mowed, in gosh, ages! And that one, look at that car in the driveway. I bet there’s two years of grime on that thing! None of these people seem to be able to take care of their houses very well, and they can’t afford to fix them up much, it seems.”
The boys looked at Mr. Johnson and then at each other and, filled with the joy and peace that all their schemes to repay Mr. Johnson could never bring them, shouted at the top of their lungs, “Here we are! We’ll go and tell those neighbors right away that everything we planned to do to repay you for the window, we’ll now do for them!”
Mr. Johnson nodded, “Very well boys. When you’re finished with all of your hard work, invite the neighbors to my house later for dinner. All of you can come over for a feast that my son and I have prepared for all of you.”
(No analogy, of course, is perfect.)
HMMM As i read this i noticed that it does not square up with Scripture. You can read the lords attitude about the penalty for wrongdoing in Matt: 5 vs 21-26. "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, “You shall not kill: and whoever kills shall be liable to
judgment.” But i say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment: whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, You fool! shall be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go: first be reconciled to your brother, and then come offer your gift . Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard , and you be put in prison: truly i say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
I think that the actual words of the aforementioned Son and his real attitude towards sin and the responsibility we accrue as we sin is stated here.
Also Luke:12 41-48 More of the Sons attitude toward sin and how he will respond to it. when He returns.
D
dzheremi
Guest
Gabriel:
It is difficult to respond to your reply point-by-point because you did not use the quote function properly. I will only ask you, for the purposes of settling my curiosity about it:
“Indulgences do _____________________ that reconciliation/confession does not do.”
How would you fill in the blank?
Most of the replies I’ve seen in favor of this idea are far too vague for me to accept. I want some sort of concrete idea as to why I should believe in this when other apostolic churches do not.
It is difficult to respond to your reply point-by-point because you did not use the quote function properly. I will only ask you, for the purposes of settling my curiosity about it:
“Indulgences do _____________________ that reconciliation/confession does not do.”
How would you fill in the blank?
Most of the replies I’ve seen in favor of this idea are far too vague for me to accept. I want some sort of concrete idea as to why I should believe in this when other apostolic churches do not.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Recalling my review last weekend, indulgences offset the remission of sin…Christ said we are to do penance lest we likewise perish.
Again, our world has lost the sense of sin and how much it has fractured our relationship with God, as well as this sense of taking God too casually.
Every idle word, act or deed, although forgiven, needs to be purged from our being.
If we carry our cross every day with love, and fulfill God’s will every day, and are charitable to others, we bypass purgatory.
But most of us are imperfect, we go to confession, and we find ourselves committing the same sins. Remission is the punishment due sin. Sin disfigures our souls. An indulgence relates to the sacrament of penance. People take extra time during the day at a special time to recall their sins, and to offer a Mass or prayers following Mass, or whatever form, to seek God’s mercy for to lessen the remission of sin.
So in fact, an indulgence is a help from the Church to help in our purification on this earth.
The Bible stops at Revelations, but it is the beginning of Christ’s church. What is bound by Peter is then bound in heaven. Again, do you honestly think Catholics were essentially concerned in buying their way into heaven? I don’t think so.
Again, our world has lost the sense of sin and how much it has fractured our relationship with God, as well as this sense of taking God too casually.
Every idle word, act or deed, although forgiven, needs to be purged from our being.
If we carry our cross every day with love, and fulfill God’s will every day, and are charitable to others, we bypass purgatory.
But most of us are imperfect, we go to confession, and we find ourselves committing the same sins. Remission is the punishment due sin. Sin disfigures our souls. An indulgence relates to the sacrament of penance. People take extra time during the day at a special time to recall their sins, and to offer a Mass or prayers following Mass, or whatever form, to seek God’s mercy for to lessen the remission of sin.
So in fact, an indulgence is a help from the Church to help in our purification on this earth.
The Bible stops at Revelations, but it is the beginning of Christ’s church. What is bound by Peter is then bound in heaven. Again, do you honestly think Catholics were essentially concerned in buying their way into heaven? I don’t think so.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
The discussion did not center around why the Jews did it. It centered around the didactic reason for the animal sacrifices. I said that God did not use them to teach the people repentance vis a vie a carrot-stick idea. It was to teach them about Christ.
Where did anyone say they did? I was describing why we disagree with it.
S
sedonaman
Guest
Here newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm is a complete explanation, including the basis for the doctrine.
S
SSTeacher
Guest
Thank you. I already linked to it in Post #26. If you were to read the posts immediately following Post #26 you might conclude that the article hasn’t been much help.
Cordially,
Mick
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Maybe Gabriel will explain it better but this is my take. I don’t think anyone can fill the blank with certainty. It’s like asking what the result is if you pray for one hour a day, everyday for such and such a time span.
An extract from the link given (New Advent Encyclopedia):
**An indulgence is the extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment due, in God’s justice, to sin that has been forgiven, which remission is granted by the Church in the exercise of the power of the keys, through the application of the superabundant merits of Christ and of the saints, and for some just and reasonable motive. Regarding this definition, the following points are to be noted:
• In the Sacrament of Baptism not only is the guilt of sin remitted, but also all the penalties attached to sin. In the Sacrament of Penance the guilt of sin is removed, and with it the eternal punishment due to mortal sin; but there still remains the temporal punishment required by Divine justice, and this requirement must be fulfilled either in the present life or in the world to come, i.e., in Purgatory.** An indulgence offers the penitent sinner the means of discharging this debt during his life on earth.
An indulgence is penance by another name. I mentioned this in another post. While penance has a wider scope like saying prayers and doing specific task assigned by the confessor, indulgence is more specific. The effect is the same – remission of temporal punishment except of course you are not going for confession and it is or it is not for any particular sins unlike in confession.
I guess the principle which is a point of contention among us who believe and those who don’t is that – no amount of confession of sin is enough; there is always the penance that one needs to do, be it here on earth or in purgatory; be it in the form of prayers or work. Work can come in many forms and indulgence is one of them. This is how I understand it and it cannot be any easier than that.
- Status