What is your objection to the Catholic doctrine of Indulgences?

[steve_b]

Many thanks for supplying the above link to The Original Catholic Encyclopedia. The explanation commences as follows:

Let’s discuss.

Firstly, there is the idea of God forgiving sins but forgiving only the guilt. What does that mean, exactly? In what way does God manage to forgive only guilt? And even if one assumes that God works in this mysterious way then comes the question of what is left to forgive once the guilt is dealt with? If the guilt has been expunged, cancelled or neutralized then might not one reasonably suppose that God sees the penitent as being innocent? Where does any punishment fit in to this scenario? In other words, what exactly needs to be punished if the penitent is innocent (or, at least, not guilty) in the sight of God since he or she has confessed his or her sins?

This brings me to my second point, which is the Catholic understanding of God and His justice. It seems to me that in the Catholic understanding of what God is like, God must insist upon punishment for sin. This punishment is the “temporal punishment owing to sin.” Are you able to supply some examples of what Catholics understand to be “temporal” punishment and explain how Catholics understand the process whereby this kind of punishment can be carried over into the spiritual realm? According to the Psalmist, “as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.” According to Saint Paul, “love keeps no record of wrongs.” How do you, as a Catholic, make sense of these conflicting ideas?

Cordially,
Mick

Reading through all the pages of this thread, I thought I would go back to the beginning and respond to this post. You obviously have fiull agreement with all the other non-Catholics on this thread with your position against the Catholic position. Since we had this conversation on another thread, I thought I would provide you and the others with what EO believes. I sense you’re not aware of the EO position.

Notice, these sites agree with each other regarding the after life, so it’s not like one site is in contradiction with the others.

• There is punishment for the soul depending on the degree of sinfulness in this life.
• The soul is not just asleep waiting for the final judgement.
• The ordeal the soul goes through can be short or long. You’ll notice, the ordeal isn’t pleasant for those with alot of sins.
• Can a soul experience blessedness or suffering after death without a body? Yep!.
• Does it matter that the EO don’t call this process purgatory or prayers and almesgiving for the dead to release them from this ordeal…indulgence? No.

yya.oca.org/youth/yomail/back-issues/2001-10-specialdeparted.htm

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Aerial_Toll-Houses Since the teaching of the tollhouses has been accredited by the Holy Synod[ of the Russian Church Abroad](The Debate Over Aerial Toll-Houses), it therefore may be considered an official teaching of the Orthodox Faith.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/tollhouse_debate.aspx
for those who say toll houses is just speculation, this site says

(Actually, no one can dogmatically establish the existence of the toll-houses precisely in accordance with the form described in the dream (of Gregory recounted in the life) of Basil the New, insofar as no direct indication thereto is to be found in the Scriptures. However, this tradition has been preserved, with varying details, from profound antiquity and contains nothing that is contrary to piety…[snip]… To maintain that the soul, having been separated from the body, finds itself in some state of sleep, since without the body it cannot experience either blessedness or suffering, or hear, or speak, and that the demons also cannot even see it, is contrary to our Faith. The Church has never taught this. [snip]…. not all souls are found in the same state, nor are they sent to one and the same place." In connection with this there is the reservation that “when we say that God does not ask of us an accounting for our life, this must be understood in the sense that we shall be given an accounting not in the manner of human accountings” (Ibid.). To put it otherwise, life after death is not portrayable with sufficient fullness in earthly understandings and expressions.

When you assess what is described in these sites, it is clear the EO can’t point fingers at Catholics regarding purgatory and indulgences.

 

[KathleenGee]

Considering our guests, we should may be close this thread???

 

[distracted]

***i dont like the way priests are given the stipend… shouldnt it go to the Church??? ***

 

[Non_Serviam]

Considering our guests, we should may be close this thread???

Just before you do that, could someone please respond to what I wrote-I intended it in good faith and it seems that “Entertainment Now” has overshadowed it.

Thanks.

I’ve stayed out of this thread for a while because the information I’d seen didn’t seem to cast indulgences in a better light, so I thought I would wait and watch for a bit. Having done that, I’m still not convinced, so I’m going to share some of my misgivings in narrative form to see if folks can understand them and provide satisfactory replies.

A young woman becomes the object of affection of a man. He shines his attention on her, woos her, tells her how much he loves her and how much he wants them to be together. After some time she finally says “yes” to him and their new life together will begin.

She arrives at their home to discover that his brother, an older bachelor, will be living with them. She is surprised to discover that he will be eating all meals with them (after all, her husband says, it just isn’t a “real” meal if he isn’t there), sitting in on their discussions and telling her what the “actual meaning” is of things she reads or hears. The husband explains that this has been the tradition in his family for centuries.

The husband then goes on to say that any problems the girl experiences should be discussed with his brother who will then provide solutions in his place (just like it was me saying it).Also, the husband has decided that he will place all of his love under the authority of his brother, who will dispense it to the wife “at the appropriate times”.

With this the brother takes the floor and explains that he’s drawn up a chart of all the ways that she can demonstrate her love for her husband. “He’s such an awesome guy” says the brother, “you are really lucky to have him, and I don’t think you always appreciate that, so we’re going to work on your attitudes and affections to make you worthy. And as you become worthy, I’ll make more of his love available to you.”

The wife reads the list and finds it to be a hodge-podge of items: reading a certain book, visiting a certain place, singing a certain song-many of the items seem to reflect her brother-in-law’s tastes rather than her husbands, but trying to discus that with her brother-in-law simply results in him adding new items to the list because of “deeply held attitudes”.

As time goes on the wife learns that simply doing the items isn’t enough-they can be invalid if the brother-in-law doesn’t think they were done in the right spirit. Like the time she got up from bed with a cold to wash his car. She had grimaced during a coughing fit and this was enough to invalidate the whole. So she climbed back into bed sorrowful, only to be told that this “self-pity” was yet another attitude to be worked on.

Refusing to let her view the ledger he kept notes in, the brother-in-law would only assure her that she was making “some” progress and to be hopeful and keep going. Which she did for many, many years-hopeful that her actions were pleasing her husband, and hoping to be found worthy of his love and possessing the proper attitude to deserve it.

 

[cruisin]

Your Romans interpretation conflicts with the rest of scripture. And I dont’ think you have the correct understanding of what an Indulgence is, it is not dependent upon anothers works to attain anothers salvation.
but so Christ’s work on the corss wasn’t for us?

 

[cruisin]

Gabriel of 12
cruisin said

I don’t see anything in what you quote here that says anything about judgement of works = salvation or no salvation. EVerything I have read in this thread form infurrs that indulgences is a transferance of works to save some else. you seem to be contradicting yourself. either we can transfer works or we cannot. If someone is responsible for the things he did in this life and is judged according, Then the only ssavalation he has is by the work of the cross. /QUOTE]

I am not even sure you understand the works of the Cross. "This was going across the line and I apologize. " /

QUOTE]

I have voiced what I believe and what I understand. your quotes do not descibe any type of penance. they speak of an acounting. Different subject.

Matthew 12; 36
25 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak.
37

2 Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

1 Peter 1:15-1715 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

Peter calls us to be Holy no problem here. This is a good passage to challenge the once saved always saved notion.

Revelation 20:12-13 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

12: Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – 13: each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14: If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15: If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer [zēmioō Greek, will be punished] loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. [1 Cor 3:…]

By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

again I have no problems with these verses for God Judges all, but the Idea that some how we can bank our works for someone else is just not there.

 

[KathleenGee]

Non Serviam,

Missed it. Regarding the Entertainment section, can read into it, and it looks like they are not buying.

But quite frankly, every perspective has been given here…and I think I am ready for some entertainment as well.

I feel now like I am already on a merry-go-round.

 

[distracted]

Non Serviam,

Missed it. Regarding the Entertainment section, can read into it, and it looks like they are not buying.

But quite frankly, every perspective has been given here…and I think I am ready for some entertainment as well.

I feel now like I am already on a merry-go-round.

what is your thought on Post 241?

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes I saw post 241…and it looked like those stereotypes…

I just got a list of where the moolah goes, that is, from our collection basket – so much goes to non-Catholic groups helping those in need.

My pastor is the one appointed in working with the abuse victims. I really like his daily Mass because he just focuses on the Apostolic tradition when we reflect on the Word of God, and gives us historical and sociological conditions in the times of the specific readings…

Being in the Apostolic perspective for me is being in the stillpoint of God where everything is in perfect balance. And we then have the Eucharist – and on Wednesday’s – Adoration of the Lord following. There is such a communion among us at Mass, all one without alot of worldly conversations…it is like we already know who each other is to the depth of their being, and where each other is…and the Lord is carrying us forward…we don’t have to do anything but to receive Him…The Lord in the sacrament truly makes us one.

People here asked what my indulgences were, which ones were those I practiced…I ‘invited them into my home’, when I described what was there…and then I found out sombody here in their home…has a number of books regarding the state of the Catholic Church during the Reformation.

So if a person’s treasure and merits contain a library of past sin and scandal, well, it would be hard to see how we practice our faith, aka what is in my home with my sacramentals.

St. Catherine warned us not to focus on others’ sins because it will affect our faith.

We should ‘work’ – woops I said ‘work’ – every day to have the Lord permeate more and more our entire being…and not scandal and crud.

‘Woops, I said it again’…‘works’…remember? – there was an old show of two young fellows…one later became the lead on Gilligan’s Island, can’t remember his name. But he had this Bohemian friend…every time the fellow would mention ‘work’ to his friend, the Bohemian react…‘Work?’…and hiccup.

We may have Bohemians here…more of an issue these days than the $5 stipends.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Bohemian I was recalling was ‘Maynard’ on the Dobie Gillis show…Maynard was played by Bob Denver who later became the lead on Gilligan’s Island.

Maynard would always jump and say ‘work’ with a hiccup…he had an aversion to work.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I don’t see anything in what you quote here that says anything about judgement of works = salvation or no salvation. EVerything I have read in this thread form youinfurrs that indulgences is a transferance of works to save some else. you seem to be contradicting yourself. either we can transfer works or we cannot. If someone is responsible for the things he did in this life and is judged according, Then the only ssavalation he has is by the work of the cross.

You are hinting on multiple topics here apart from the subject of indulgence and purgatory, maybe that is why you are confused and trying to fit judgement, salvation by works? and transferring of works to save someone else? the latter does not define and indulgence.

Indulgence is related to this scripture but is not limited here;

James18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

I am not even sure you understand the works of the Cross.

]

Scripture speaks of two crosses; The Cross at Calvary which Jesus was crucified upon, which paid the price for our sins, so that we can become children of God. And the Cross Jesus tells the children of God (his disciples) to take up and follow him.

Indulgences is a cross Catholics (the children of God) disciples of Christ take up and follow Jesus Christ with.

Now to which Cross are you referencing that I don’t understand?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I have voiced what I believe and what I understand. your quotes do not descibe any type of penance. they speak of an acounting. Different subject.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Maynard G. Krebbs to be exact…I can picture Dobie sitting in front of the Thinker statue as we speak

The Bohemian I was recalling was ‘Maynard’ on the Dobie Gillis show…Maynard was played by Bob Denver who later became the lead on Gilligan’s Island.

Maynard would always jump and say ‘work’ with a hiccup…he had an aversion to work.

 

[KathleenGee]

So…do we call those who cannot grasp indulgences, the Bohemians…’? ‘Works???’

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I grasp indulgences…and summarily reject them!

So…do we call those who cannot grasp indulgences, the Bohemians…’? ‘Works???’

 

[cruisin]

Indulgence is discipline for the Children of God who may be chastised by our heavenly Father, because “the Father chastises those whom he loves”. Due to our confessed, forgiven forgotten sin by God.

Why would God chastise us for something that is, as you say; " confessed, forgiven forgotten sin by God." So you are say that God forgives us takes away our sin and then says oh I forgot to punish you. Please

Remains divine justice from our forgiven sin. An indulgence removes these temporal punishments either now in this world while we work our our salvation with fear and trembling or in purgatory where we will suffer loss.

And How are they removed, by doing something in the name of someone or for someone.

Only the works of Jesus Christ can save you, indulgence is not banking works inorder to save someone. Indulgence is for the already saved in Christ who may suffer loss on his way into the beatific vision of God. These in purgatory are already saved by the blood of the lamb of God. The souls in purgatory are suffering temporal punishment and loss before coming into the presence of God. Your analogy of works for others to be saved never applies to an indulgence.

GAbriel, I have been following this thread since the beginning and Ihave read all the catholic reasoning, but I can only come to one conclusion, and that is that an indulgence is a bank of works that can be added to and withdrawn from by prayer, saying masses, paying money, etc. All I see is a good money making scheme from by the church. And they have you hook line a sinker. Either Christs blood is enough to save my soul or it isn’t.

The quote from Hebrews 12 you gave speaks of earthly things. I see no death mentioned before the discipline.

Paul wrote to be abscent from the body is to be present With God. If there is purgatory then Paul was wrong. But I dont’ think he was.

heb 7
Endure your trials as “discipline”; God treats you as sons. For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline?

So tell me are lifes trials, discipline or is discipline, trials?

Oh by the way the cross comment I made, i said it was a low blow and apoligized. but oh you couldn’t find it in you to even acknowledge that.

You seem scan posts to find what you disagree and find offense so you can set us poor unknowledgable non-catholic creatures straight.

I have seen catholic parishes use indelugences to practically extort money from it’s charges. playing on their emotions for their loved ones. If you don’t give such and such then your loved one will have stay in prugatory for such and such. give me a break. I am a little synical when I see things like this happen.

From what I have been told to have a Mass said for someone in my neck of the woods is exactly cheap.

I gotta run now.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The biggest issue I still have is the treasury of merit stuff. The idea that Jesus earned more grace than we need to be saved added to a treasury and then somehow the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints added a superabundance of merit to the bank and it gets dispensed, this is not only un-Scriptural but we see absolutely nothing of any such beliefs in the early Church until the Middle Ages kick in and the papacy is basically in rogue charge of Western Europe and development doctrine and innovations are abounding. It doesn’t make sense, it’s more modern in development, and it goes against the Pauline understanding of how we’re forgiven and saved from hell. It’s one more hurdle to jump through added by human beings complicating a simple, loving process given us by our Saviour.

 

[blazerdave]

The idea of a Treasury of Merit that can be applied to the less virtuous seems totally foreign to Scripture. Even if we recognize that works are the standard for judgment, do we really, truly find Scripture or the Fathers expressing gratitude for such a Treasury? Are the good works of other people so meritorious in the site of God that they can be applicable for my sins? :hypno:

 

[KathleenGee]

Guerney,

How many books on the Reformation do you have??? That is your filter…in how you read the catechism…Remember, I reviewed them and didn’t see any economics in them…I mean some people compared Treasury to an image akin to the US Treasury.

The merits and works of Christ’s life, death and resurrection…and Mary is closest to Him, she greater than all the saints…hers as advocate.

I have been at people’s dying moments, and Mary was truly their greatest advocate. Some had been thrashing, one was foaming at the mouth…they died in peace because of her prayers…

So…we are not Bohemians.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m no Bohemian “Galileo Galileo will you do the fandango!” (Little Queen reference, sorry)

I’m not sure why you ask the question on how many Reformation books I have and how that applies but to answer you, I have several and I have even more Catholic books. I have a library on steroids. Don’t worry. And like fox, it’s “fair and balanced,” not heavy on either side…

Jesus is my advocate. The Scriptures tell me He is the Way to the Father. He is the Saviour of the World, the King of Kings, and he pleads for me before the Father. I have nothing against Mary. I have a great respect for her, trust me. But I pray to Jesus directly, no middle-men…or women. Mary always points to Christ in Scripture so I’ll follow her lead and go straight to Him, too.

And by the way, no filters in reading the Catechism. I have a copy sitting beside me. I read it for years with no filters either way. God bless. Go Dobie Gillis!

Guerney,

How many books on the Reformation do you have??? That is your filter…in how you read the catechism…Remember, I reviewed them and didn’t see any economics in them…I mean some people compared Treasury to an image akin to the US Treasury.

The merits and works of Christ’s life, death and resurrection…and Mary is closest to Him, she greater than all the saints…hers as advocate.

I have been at people’s dying moments, and Mary was truly their greatest advocate. Some had been thrashing, one was foaming at the mouth…they died in peace because of her prayers…

So…we are not Bohemians.