What is your Opinion of The Mormon Mirage by Latayne C.Scott

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They give it as “the” understanding of the Trinity. Do the LDS believe that Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, Orthodox and so forth all have different beliefs regarding the Trinity?
Therefore they were addressing a specific doctrine with which they disagreed, not a specific religion or faith.

…and as a matter of fact, from where I sit all those people do indeed have varied notions of what the Trinity is. I have had it described to me in verbiage that ranges from strict modalism all the way to God the Father has Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost as separate, and one step down, from Him. The description is different with almost every person I talk to.

So it doesn’t surprise me a bit that you don’t believe in the description of the Trinity as Ballard or Oaks presents it. Good thing, then, that they weren’t claiming that you believe it, isn’t it?

As well, I have just come from reading Oaks examination of our beliefs on the Godhead…and I don’t see anything even remotely the way you have painted it. How about some actual quotes, sir?
But it really doesn’t matter. Ballard and Oakes are not members of a faith that believes in the Trinity, and thus they are not qualified to explain it since only a true believer can give an accurate explanation.
Since that is (from what I have read this morning, anyway) not what they did, I think you are going to have to provide quotes.
 
All of Christianity believes in the one triune God. That is one of the hallmarks of a Christian. Like the test to get past the sentry, no Christian would answer as a Mormon does. So it stands to reason that anyone speaking agains the GOD that all of Christianity WORSHIPS, that they are speaking against all of Christianity and every Christian.

If I say, “Those who teach baptism for the dead are in apostasy. This false doctrine has replaced a plain and precious truth.”. No, I have not said one word about Mormonism, but you know very well who I am speaking about.

You are doing nothing but defending the methods of your leaders, not what they actually say.
 
Well, Dianaiad.

Here’s what you said:

*we do NOT believe that people who go to hell are 'burned forever with unquenchable fire." That particular view of hell is so foreign to what we teach and believe as would make an LDS reader wonder if you get anything at all RIGHT.

If you remember your time as a Latter-day Saint, you should remember that we believe true hell to be, not physical suffering, but rather the complete absence of God. Those there have nothing but despair and regret; "outer darkness,’ Latayne, is not considered to be volcano central. If I were to describe it in physical metaphors, it would be utterly cold…and there aren’t all that many people headed there, come to think of it. To us, ‘hell’ (the hell to which you could condemn murderers et. al.) is still a kingdom of heaven.
*

You missed the point completely in 3 major ways.
  1. You are arguing about the LDS concept of hell and how badly I missed it – on the basis of a quote from someone else. You say you’re going to read my book. My book on page 255-256 does say of the LDS view of hell is that it is temporary – except, as Apostle Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine says of “those who have wholly given themselves over to satanic purposes. . .They go on forever in the hell that is prepared for them.”
All I had to go by is YOUR quote, Latayne; the one in which you stated that we believed that hell is ‘unquenchable fire,’ and defined for us who we thought went there.
  1. The LDS hell does include fire. McConkie’s definition # 1 (under the heading, “Hell”, p. 349 in my 1966 edition) says that “there they welter in the vengeance of eternal fire.” He cites D&C 76:105-106: “These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work. . .”
  2. And you missed the point completely of the quote from my book. Joseph Smith taught that the Mormon god “dwells in everlasting burnings.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1977), 347.) If Mormons are right, and after earth life they go to dwell with their god, they will be with him in everlasting burnings.
You are a writer. You understand the use of metaphor, and have just given us several examples. Do you see the irony here in showing us that one writer likens hell to eternal burnings, and another likens the presence of God to 'everlasting burnings" (obvious metaphors for something else–and something very different for each use)?

Yet you are using these obvious metaphors to justify your claim that we use the term literally. That’s equivocating.
BUT if all Mormonism has said about God being three separate people, their inability to keep the New Testament church from the gates of hell and instead allowing it to descend into a complete apostasy for 1700 years, and men becoming gods after death – if all of this is false and has led millions of people away from the true and living triune only God – then the Mormon church will indeed be in danger of a very real burning hell: “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8.
I see.

So…because you believe in a literal burning hell, then you feel justified in presenting us as believing in one, and criticizing us for that belief, even though your own quotes prove that for us the ‘burning’ part is a metaphor? That’s pretty convoluted.
People can suppose all they want about my motives for writing what I write.
Well, we don’t have to ‘suppose,’ Latayne. Your motives are fairly obvious; you have stated them very clearly indeed.
Without even knowing it, I was poised over that lake when I was a Mormon. I don’t want anyone else to run that risk. I believe God’s words in Ezekiel 33:8 --“When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thy hand.”

I write to warn. That’s why I write about Mormonism.

Latayne C Scott
www.latayne.com
And there you go.

You will excuse me, I hope, if I view your warning with a jaundiced eye; it’s rather like the mom who warns her kids about not swimming in the neighbor’s pool because there are alligators and pirahnas in it.

When they discover that no, there are no flesh eating fish and reptiles in the pool, they tend to look at further warnings from her through a very different lens. I mean, the next time she tells them not to go swimming in that pool because she saw the neighbor over chlorinate it and it will bleach out their swimsuits, do you think they will pay attention?

Just a thought. As well, after hearing her talk about alligators and pirhanas in his pool, do you think the neighbor will pay attention to her if she tells him that he’s putting too much chlorine in it?

Not likely.
 
All of Christianity believes in the one triune God. That is one of the hallmarks of a Christian.
Like the test to get past the sentry, no Christian would answer as a Mormon does. So it stands to reason that anyone speaking agains the GOD that all of Christianity WORSHIPS, that they are speaking against all of Christianity and every Christian.
Sez who? The above statement is one of the most classic True Scott fallacies there is.
If I say, “Those who teach baptism for the dead are in apostasy. This false doctrine has replaced a plain and precious truth.”. No, I have not said one word about Mormonism, but you know very well who I am speaking about.
Perhaps…but you are addressing a specific doctrine, not an entire belief system and people. You ARE, however, skirting the boundaries a bit. After all, the idea of deity is common to all religions; talking about Who He is is pertinent. As we are the only Christians who believe in, and practice, proxy baptism for the dead, it’s pretty obvious that you are in attack mode…you don’t, after all, have to defend NOT doing it, do you?
You are doing nothing but defending the methods of your leaders, not what they actually say.
Y’know, you are correct—and I can’t find the quotes. would you or Zif provide me with the exact references so that I can go do that?
 
Sez who? The above statement is one of the most classic True Scott fallacies there is.
You like to throw this around, yet, you fail to address the facts. I can speak with any Christian, Protestant, Catholic, East and West. We all believe in the one triune God. The Mormon idea of three separate gods who or are not of the same nature has been declared from the earliest teachings of Christianity as an incorrect understanding. All of Christianity believes in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, which understanding only comes from knowing God as He has revealed Himself. The fallacy is Joseph Smith’s.
Perhaps…but you are addressing a specific doctrine, not an entire belief system and people. You ARE, however, skirting the boundaries a bit. After all, the idea of deity is common to all religions; talking about Who He is is pertinent. As we are the only Christians who believe in, and practice, proxy baptism for the dead, it’s pretty obvious that you are in attack mode…you don’t, after all, have to defend NOT doing it, do you?
No Diana, it is mormonism that attempts to dismiss the cohesiveness of Christianity in this doctrine. It is the mormon way, to divide, divide, divide in an attempt to make itself relevant.
Y’know, you are correct—and I can’t find the quotes. would you or Zif provide me with the exact references so that I can go do that?
I gave you three examples. You did with those as you do with all things mormon…tow the party line. No matter how you would like to wish it away, your religion will always have to work at proving truth as false. Your leaders say it often enough, perhaps they are going for “if you say it enough times people will believe it”.
 
No True Stool would have anything but three legs.
Given that a stool (well, in terms of furniture…we won’t talk about bodily functions, woodland management techniques or window parts…) means a ‘simple seat without back or armrests,’ and doesn’t mention the number of legs it has to have (bar stools, for instance, usually have four legs…) I believe that you have just made my point for me.

I love it.
 
You like to throw this around, yet, you fail to address the facts. I can speak with any Christian, Protestant, Catholic, East and West. We all believe in the one triune God. The Mormon idea of three separate gods who or are not of the same nature has been declared from the earliest teachings of Christianity as an incorrect understanding. All of Christianity believes in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, which understanding only comes from knowing God as He has revealed Himself. The fallacy is Joseph Smith’s.
But you don’t get to define the word, Rebecca. It is an English word, and is defined by the common set of all speakers of English as something other than what you claim for it.
No Diana, it is mormonism that attempts to dismiss the cohesiveness of Christianity in this doctrine. It is the mormon way, to divide, divide, divide in an attempt to make itself relevant.

I gave you three examples. You did with those as you do with all things mormon…tow the party line. No matter how you would like to wish it away, your religion will always have to work at proving truth as false. Your leaders say it often enough, perhaps they are going for “if you say it enough times people will believe it”.
Y’know, Rebecca, I have never once addressed Catholics and Catholicism in terms even remotely like the ones you have just used; in fact, if I did so, the moderators of this forum would have me kicked out faster than you can say ‘boo.’. I certainly never equated a Catholic position with a Leninist quote.

Double standards; aren’t they a hoot?
 
“No True Stool would have anything but three legs” is a No True Scotsman Fallacy because it is a sudden change in the accepted definition of something in an attempted to validate an assertion. The Mormon definition of Christian is a change in definition and in the 2000 year history of Christianity, it is sudden.
 
“No True Stool would have anything but three legs” is a No True Scotsman Fallacy because it is a sudden change in the accepted definition of something in an attempted to validate an assertion. The Mormon definition of Christian is a change in definition and in the 2000 year history of Christianity, it is sudden.
What is ‘sudden’ is the change in the definition of “Christian” that EXCLUDES Mormonism. I blame Walter Martin and his like for that.

The fact that no English dictionary anywhere includes the requirement of believing in the Catholic definition of the Trinity in the definition of “Christian” should cause you some pause, Stephen.

The point is, you do not get to define what “Christian” is. Neither, of course, do I–but I’m not the one who is trying to draw a line around my favorite doctrines and keeping everybody else out.

I am a Christian because I satisfy all the requirements for the definition of that word in every English dictionary there is. I am a Christian because I believe in Jesus the Christ, and because I say I am.

That doesn’t make me ‘saved.’ It doesn’t make me ‘right.’ It doesn’t make me ‘good,’ or ‘righteous.’ It makes me…Christian.
 
Finrock made a point in a previous post. He said of me:

Plus, your experiences as a member of the LDS church aren’t representative of the whole. Anyways, to me, this paragraph comes across as an ad hominem towards Dianaiad more than it does as a genuine sentiment of how you experienced life as a Mormon. The reason I say this is because 1.) Dianaiad isn’t displaying any of the qualities you are attributing to her. 2.) You have no way of knowing that Dianaiad shares the flaws you admit to once having. You are claiming some personal insight in to Dianaiads psychology and it is unlikely that you have such access.

Finrock was right. I don’t know any of you on this board and thus should not have implied any assessment of her personally. It’s true that I, my roommates at BYU, and all my close associates refused to read materials critical of Mormonism. My thought was sympathy toward the LDS position as I remembered it personally, and toward Dianaiad in particular. But I spoke for someone whom I do not know regardless of my good intentions toward her.

Dianaiad, I apologize for that. I am sincerely sorry.

Latayne C Scott
www.latayne.com

PS Finrock, how can one respond to a charge of “false humility”? By saying, “Oh yes I am humble?” I love what Golda Meir always said: “Don’t be humble. You’re not that great.”
 
But you don’t get to define the word, Rebecca. It is an English word, and is defined by the common set of all speakers of English as something other than what you claim for it.
I don’t define it, Christ’s Church, who has the authority that was given it by Jesus Himself, does. It starts with a valid baptism.
Y’know, Rebecca, I have never once addressed Catholics and Catholicism in terms even remotely like the ones you have just used; in fact, if I did so, the moderators of this forum would have me kicked out faster than you can say ‘boo.’. I certainly never equated a Catholic position with a Leninist quote.
Double standards; aren’t they a hoot?
Oh please, such a drama queen! I was talking about your leaders, not Lenin.
 
Therefore they were addressing a specific doctrine with which they disagreed, not a specific religion or faith.
No they were not addressing a specific Christian doctrine because what they describe is not doctrine. Your apostles (heads of your church, there only 15 of them not like a local yokel bishop or say a priest) made up a Trinity, a distortion and then discussed how they didn’t agree with it. Just as you accuse the authors advertised here of doing.
…and as a matter of fact, from where I sit all those people do indeed have varied notions of what the Trinity is. I have had it described to me in verbiage that ranges from strict modalism all the way to God the Father has Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost as separate, and one step down, from Him. The description is different with almost every person I talk to.
As a matter of fact there was a poster on MAD who was adamant that the Adam/God thing was correct, he posted numerous quotes from BY to support his view, he was corrected repeatedly by other posters but he remained staunch in his belief. On another board a poster was just as adamant about the correctness of Blood Atonement. Finrock, ParkerD and Zerinus don’t seem to be in agreement over whether or not each of us is “a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents”.
So it doesn’t surprise me a bit that you don’t believe in the description of the Trinity as Ballard or Oaks presents it. Good thing, then, that they weren’t claiming that you believe it, isn’t it?
This is garbage, it’s perfectly obvious from the context that your apostles are talking about all who believe in the Trinity, who else is he talking about Hindus, Jehovah’s Witnesses?? More intentional obtuseness?
As well, I have just come from reading Oaks examination of our beliefs on the Godhead…and I don’t see anything even remotely the way you have painted it. How about some actual quotes, sir?
Included in Oakes examination of your beliefs is a false description of “Traditional Christian” beliefs.
Since that is (from what I have read this morning, anyway) not what they did, I think you are going to have to provide quotes.
It’s all there in Rebecca’s links, that you can’t find it speaks volumes.

By the way it would be Zaf not Zif.
 
No they were not addressing a specific Christian doctrine because what they describe is not doctrine. Your apostles (heads of your church, there only 15 of them not like a local yokel bishop or say a priest) made up a Trinity, a distortion and then discussed how they didn’t agree with it. Just as you accuse the authors advertised here of doing.

As a matter of fact there was a poster on MAD who was adamant that the Adam/God thing was correct, he posted numerous quotes from BY to support his view, he was corrected repeatedly by other posters but he remained staunch in his belief. On another board a poster was just as adamant about the correctness of Blood Atonement. Finrock, ParkerD and Zerinus don’t seem to be in agreement over whether or not each of us is “a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents”.

This is garbage, it’s perfectly obvious from the context that your apostles are talking about all who believe in the Trinity, who else is he talking about Hindus, Jehovah’s Witnesses?? More intentional obtuseness?

Included in Oakes examination of your beliefs is a false description of “Traditional Christian” beliefs.

It’s all there in Rebecca’s links, that you can’t find it speaks volumes.

By the way it would be Zaf not Zif.
Zaffirobrant,
I wanted to point out something and then ask for your help.

I totally agree that each of us is “a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents.” I have said that I don’t know the “how” process of becoming a spirit. I understand that there was creative energy involved and definitely nurturing involved. A “mother” is a nurturer.

Getting one’s understanding into a grasp of a description of the Trinity that everyone who uses that term agrees with, is pretty difficult if not impossible, it seems to me from the reading I’ve done on this website. Take the word “essence”. What does that mean? I could think it means “quality”. Same with the word “substance.” One “quality” or one “state of being” or one “set of like attributes”. (I’m just trying to understand terms that I have seen used.) If you would care to explain, I would appreciate getting a better grasp of what is meant by “three Persons” and whatever the caveat is that combines them into One, and if They always remain “three Persons”.
 
Zaffirobrant,
I wanted to point out something and then ask for your help.

I totally agree that each of us is “a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents.” I have said that I don’t know the “how” process of becoming a spirit. I understand that there was creative energy involved and definitely nurturing involved. A “mother” is a nurturer.

Getting one’s understanding into a grasp of a description of the Trinity that everyone who uses that term agrees with, is pretty difficult if not impossible, it seems to me from the reading I’ve done on this website. Take the word “essence”. What does that mean? I could think it means “quality”. Same with the word “substance.” One “quality” or one “state of being” or one “set of like attributes”. (I’m just trying to understand terms that I have seen used.) If you would care to explain, I would appreciate getting a better grasp of what is meant by “three Persons” and whatever the caveat is that combines them into One, and if They always remain “three Persons”.
I am not so articulate, I have a number of books that explain it well (at least for me) I would find them (that could take a while) but for now I’m closing everyones tabs and turning off the computer. We are off to the mountains woo hoo. The computer could probably use a break too or maybe not hope it starts back up it might go into shock from sudden and extended inactivity.:)Maybe someone else could help you, many here are articulate enough on their own without resorting to someone eles’s work.🙂
 
It is very difficult for those who have never been Mormon to understand the quandry that many Mormons feel themselves in, in regard to writings that critique – or criticize – Mormon doctrine. I devoted an entire section of my book to this very phenomenon. Here is a section from it:

Issue #8: Dealing with “Antis” or Oppositional Media

Published criticism of Mormon doctrine and practices (so-called “anti-Mormon literature”) has been a thorn in the side of the Mormon Church for decades. For many years the official stance of the LDS Church was simply to ignore pamphlets and books but in the 1990’s organized and well-funded response groups sprang up. So-called “anti-anti” champions took a new tack: Emphasize the victimization of Mormons and their doctrines by their aggressive opponents.

In an online article entitled, “Are Anti-Mormons Christians?” (the article’s answer is “a clear and resounding no”), LDS author Russell McGregor asks, “. . .can anyone imagine a group of Latter-day Saints picketing, say, a Methodist Church? Of course not.” That would be un-Christian, he says. Elsewhere he states: “Never mind that there is no book or pamphlet published by the Church that attacks, denigrates, undermines or belittles the beliefs of any other church; we are attacking them simply by believing such ‘ideas’ as the First Vision.”

When I was a Mormon, I believed just as McGregor apparently does – I could not understand why anyone would oppose an organization that did so many good things for people. However, I never considered the implications of the very document to which McGregor specifically refers, in an early anti-Christian book published by the LDS Church, the one in which Joseph Smith said he was told about all Christian churches: “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong. . .all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt. . .” That of course is standard Mormon doctrine from the official version of the First Vision itself in the Pearl of Great Price, firing the first shot in this battle directly at the character and doctrines of Christians.

According to ex-Mormon John R. Farkas:
“By name it [the LDS Church] has attacked all the major denominations at some point in time. The following is a summary of the statements made by the Mormon church and Mormon leaders through the years: all churches are wrong; Satan sits at the head of Christian churches; none of the Christian churches have authority to act in God’s name; none is inspired; none can save souls; marriages performed by them are illegal and children by those marriages are illegitimate; the Roman Catholic Church is the mother of harlots; the Protestants are the harlot’s daughter and apostate; the churches are the ‘whore of Babylon”; the Bible has parts removed or is mistranslated; the false Christian gods bear the same name as the true Gods of the Bible—Beyond this they have little resemblance” (to true Christianity.)

“Abomination,” “corrupt” – not merely the language of the nineteenth century. *The defense of historical Christianity against Mormon claims was characterized by one General Authority as “theological pornography that is damaging to the spirit.” This man, Vaughn J. Featherstone, advised as do many LDS officials that members refuse to read materials critical of the Church.
*
Do some anti-Mormon materials deserve the label of “pornography”? Some, unfortunately, do deserve that characterization – not because they dealt with sexual themes but because they, like trashy demeaning pictures, put unsubstantiated or exaggerated disturbing images into the mind. Some of the anti-Mormon materials of the 1980s in particular (I’ll call them “gasoline literature,” others have called it “New Age Anti-Mormonism” because of emphasis on a link between the LDS Church and satantic forces) which used overstatement, took words out of context and did not properly document their claims could qualify for that label. Like pornography, some were sensationalistic; and even worse, they encouraged a kind of cock-sure and superior attitude in their readers. Such things make me cringe. They represent the extreme end of the spectrum. Others are characterized by being merely jarring and confrontational. (However, in spite of their excesses, some of the most unrestrained still have brought conviction to the hearts of some LDS readers.)

(From The Mormon Mirage: A Former Member Looks at the Mormon Church Today)

Notes: Russell McGregor quote online at “Are Anti-Mormons Christians?” fairlds.org/Anti-Mormons/Are_Anti-Mormons_Christians.html

Farkas quote: As quoted by Edmond C. Gruss and Lane A. Thuet, What Every Mormon (and Non-Mormon) Should Know (n.p., Xulon Press, 2006), 17. Farkas has footnoted each of these claims in the Gruss-Thuet book.

Featherstone quote: “The Last Drop in the Chalice,” speech given by Vaughn J. Featherstone, Brigham Young University, September 24,1985, online at speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6988
 
I’d like to take a stab at the thorny problem of the Godhead, or Trinity, posed by Zaffiroborant. I haven’t figured out how to upload images to this message board, but I do have a post that has a helpful diagram of it on my site.

Take a look – Mormons, Catholics, all – and see if this is of any help in understanding.

Latayne C Scott
www.latayne.com
 
I’d like to take a stab at the thorny problem of the Godhead, or Trinity, posed by Zaffiroborant. I haven’t figured out how to upload images to this message board, but I do have a post that has a helpful diagram of it on my site.

Take a look – Mormons, Catholics, all – and see if this is of any help in understanding.

Latayne C Scott
www.latayne.com
Latayne I like your image. This diagram is the modern version of the Trinity Shield a ancient symbol used to explain the Trinity. The Trinity Shield looks really cool, I made a bracelet out of a Trinity Shield charm my husband gave me 🙂
 
Thank you for giving a name to that diagram. I’d used it for years (you’d be surprised how many Protestants have never seen it) but had no idea the concept was so ancient.

And I bet jewelry made with that design is very cool.

Latayne
 
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