What is your opinion on the use of birth control in ANTICIPATION of being raped?

[centurionguard]

I have no argument with you there.

Agreed.

Now I disagree. Here’s a simple question that should make clear why: If a man is raped, it is extremely likely that he is in prison and that he bears some responsibility for being there. Do you really want to say that a man who is raped in prison could no more have prevented his being raped than a young child who is raped? Now what about a woman who gets drunk and goes to bed with a drunk Mike Tyson and gets raped: does she bear no more responsibility than the young child who is raped? The answers here are obvious. The suggestion that acknowledging this reality has anything to do with claiming that we should feel we have a right to rape others is completely absurd and dishonest.

Here’s a simple question that should make clear why: If a man is raped, it is extremely likely that he is in prison

Now respectfully; I have to ask where do you base the premise of these assumptions hinting the likely-hood that the majority of men that are raped come from prisons?

True there are many men raped from prisons as are women, but, to say that most men that are raped come from prisons is based on false speculation.

Rape is about POWER. No man in Prison takes responsible blame for his rape just because he’s incarcerated. How radically rediculous.

This is a huge Myth based on pure speculation and bias. Of course now too were steering in whole different direction from the intention of this thread.

Any man can be raped anywhere in the same way women can be raped anywhere.

aest.org.uk/survivors/male/myths_about_male_rape.htm

 

[copperblade]

Here’s a simple question that should make clear why: If a man is raped, it is extremely likely that he is in prison and that he bears some responsibility for being there. Do you really want to say that a man who is raped in prison could no more have prevented his being raped than a young child who is raped? Now what about a woman who gets drunk and goes to bed with a drunk Mike Tyson and gets raped: does she bear no more responsibility than the young child who is raped? The answers here are obvious. The suggestion that acknowledging this reality has anything to do with claiming that we should feel we have a right to rape others is completely absurd and dishonest.

I don’t think the answers are obvious. If I leave my car door unlocked is it my fault for someone stealing the change out of it? Do I deserve to have something stolen from me? I definitely think the act of theft is still 100% the responsibility of the thief no matter what I could have done to deter it. I maybe dumb for leaving my door unlocked, but I don’t think that in any way shifts any of the blame from the thief to me for the act of theft. I may guilty of being irresponsible, but I’m not guilty of theft.

Likewise, the rapist is solely guilty for rape.

 

[copperblade]

That is like going out of your house wearing a football helmet just in case you might possibly get hit in the head with a rock.

Yeah, I mean how many times do people actually get into an accident. It’s like wearing a seatbelt each and ever time you drive. Oh wait…

But seriously, some people are in high-risk for being raped. It may sound silly to you, but the question is really if it’s immoral to take contraception when you have no intention of having sex, but rather could be raped.

 

[Rence]

Now I disagree. Here’s a simple question that should make clear why: If a man is raped, it is extremely likely that he is in prison and that he bears some responsibility for being there. Do you really want to say that a man who is raped in prison could no more have prevented his being raped than a young child who is raped? Now what about a woman who gets drunk and goes to bed with a drunk Mike Tyson and gets raped: does she bear no more responsibility than the young child who is raped? The answers here are obvious. The suggestion that acknowledging this reality has anything to do with claiming that we should feel we have a right to rape others is completely absurd and dishonest.

With all due respect, and without meaning to insult: what in the world would make you write things like this? Honestly, I’m not insulting you or anything, but you need to do some research on rape statistics. In particular, you need to do some research on male rape victims. It’s difficult to have a meaningful discussion with those who obviously aren’t very knowledgeable about the topic being discussed.

 

[samiam1611]

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Another thread was at risk of being derailed bc the subject of birth control and rape came up (on a thread about NFP and marriage) so I started a new thread. So people dissing my OP as ridiculous or not worthy of an answer should be made aware that technically none of this was my idea. I just moved someone else’s idea to a new thread.

That is like going out of your house wearing a football helmet just in case you might possibly get hit in the head with a rock.

It is nothing like that. It is more analogous to a policeman wearing a bulletproof vest before invading a house of drug lords.

How can you protect yourself from everything that “might” happen?

Sigh. This has already been explained. This thread is about protecting yourself from ONE thing - pregnancy - that LIKELY will happen!

Here I will explain more fully some examples:

Say a 14 year old girl is being raped a couple times a week by her father or brother. She can take the morning after pill, but the morning after pill’s effectiveness drops way down when it is used regularly. This girl has a significant (basically certain) chance of getting raped again, and more effective methods of preventing pregnancy are available. Do you not see how the “intrinsic evil” of contraception is completely bogus if it means preventing a teenage girl from giving birth to her own HALF BROTHER! That is NOTHING like wearing a football helmet before you leave the house! Nothing! While you are entitled to your opinion, I question your ability to imagine yourself in that position, because it is unfathomable to me that someone would not even consider using birth control in that situation.

Another example:
People seem to not be comprehending the probability of getting raped. Here are some quotes to consider:

During the Rwandan Genocide: “rape was the rule and its absence the exception.”
In the Darfur region of Sudan: “No woman or girl is safe.” One reporter said “every woman or girl she spoke to had either endured sexual assault herself, or knew of someone who had been attacked.”
In South Africa: “One in three of the 4,000 women questioned by the Community of Information, Empowerment and Transparency said they had been raped in the past year”
In DNC: “Rape is simply a fact of life”

On top of these disturbing statements, these women didn’t just have sex against their will. They were raped with objects, their insides destroyed.
On a young girl, a pelvis “[hasn’t] yet grown large enough to accommodate the baby’s head, a common occurrence with young teenagers…[these girls end] up in obstructed birth, with the baby stuck inside [their] birth passage…[often, they can’t] walk or stand, a consequence of nerve damage that is a frequent by-product of fistulae." (source)

As disturbing as it is to think about, do you REALLY think that if you had been gang raped multiple times and had given birth to one of your rapists’ offspring and you don’t even know which one and now your uterus is all messed up from that, that you STILL would not use birth control? I dare you, or anyone, to tell me that even in situations like these, you still think prevention of pregnancy by the use of prophylactic birth control is intrinsically evil. Does anyone here truly think that the ends (preventing a young girl from dying during childbirth or living permanently disabled due to a difficult birth or from giving birth to her own half brother) does not justify the means? If so, IMO, you need to rethink your morals bc that is messed up.

 

[Rence]

Another thread was at risk of being derailed bc the subject of birth control and rape came up (on a thread about NFP and marriage) so I started a new thread. So people dissing my OP as ridiculous or not worthy of an answer should be made aware that technically none of this was my idea. I just moved someone else’s idea to a new thread.

It is nothing like that. It is more analogous to a policeman wearing a bulletproof vest before invading a house of drug lords.

This thread is about protecting yourself from ONE thing - pregnancy - that LIKELY will happen!

What is really sad, or what I find really disturbing, is the lack of knowledge and understanding regarding the high likelihood of certain populations being at risk of rape, and being raped very often. And not only that, a general apathy about it when it’s brought to their attention.

 

[Rence]

As disturbing as it is to think about, do you REALLY think that if you had been gang raped multiple times and had given birth to one of your rapists’ offspring and you don’t even know which one and now your uterus is all messed up from that, that you STILL would not use birth control? I dare you, or anyone, to tell me that even in situations like these, you still think prevention of pregnancy by the use of prophylactic birth control is intrinsically evil. Does anyone here truly think that the ends (preventing a young girl from dying during childbirth or living permanently disabled due to a difficult birth or from giving birth to her own half brother) does not justify the means? If so, IMO, you need to rethink your morals bc that is messed up.

I don’t think their morals are deficient. I think, instead, that there is a total lack of knowledge in this area. Maybe it’s too disturbing for them to believe that these dangers exist in some parts of the world.

I think if more people knew about the horrors you’re describing, and took the time to find out if they’re true or not, that they’d understand where you’re coming from.

Yes, in a heartbeat, I’d go on oral contraceptives prophylactically if I ever lived in one of these hot spots…but I’d want to move out of that area in the first place. You and I both know that’s not always a possibility. If it were that easy, the high probablilty of being raped (and raped multiple times by different aggressors) wouldn’t be so high because women just wouldn’t be there. But due to lack of resources, lack of knowedge, or even fear, they aren’t able to better protect themselves. Like I said in the last post: we take way too much for granted in our lives.

 

[samiam1611]

I don’t think their morals are deficient. I think, instead, that there is a total lack of knowledge in this area. Maybe it’s too disturbing for them to believe that these dangers exist in some parts of the world.

True true. Sorry if I sounded rude you guys.

I think if more people knew about the horrors you’re describing, and took the time to find out if they’re true or not, that they’d understand where you’re coming from.

Yes let’s hope so.

 

[PiousFriend]

Another thread was at risk of being derailed bc the subject of birth control and rape came up (on a thread about NFP and marriage) so I started a new thread. So people dissing my OP as ridiculous or not worthy of an answer should be made aware that technically none of this was my idea. I just moved someone else’s idea to a new thread.

It is nothing like that. It is more analogous to a policeman wearing a bulletproof vest before invading a house of drug lords.

Sigh. This has already been explained. This thread is about protecting yourself from ONE thing - pregnancy - that LIKELY will happen!

Here I will explain more fully some examples:

Say a 14 year old girl is being raped a couple times a week by her father or brother. She can take the morning after pill, but the morning after pill’s effectiveness drops way down when it is used regularly. This girl has a significant (basically certain) chance of getting raped again, and more effective methods of preventing pregnancy are available. Do you not see how the “intrinsic evil” of contraception is completely bogus if it means preventing a teenage girl from giving birth to her own HALF BROTHER! That is NOTHING like wearing a football helmet before you leave the house! Nothing! While you are entitled to your opinion, I question your ability to imagine yourself in that position, because it is unfathomable to me that someone would not even consider using birth control in that situation.

Another example:
People seem to not be comprehending the probability of getting raped. Here are some quotes to consider:

During the Rwandan Genocide: “rape was the rule and its absence the exception.”
In the Darfur region of Sudan: “No woman or girl is safe.” One reporter said “every woman or girl she spoke to had either endured sexual assault herself, or knew of someone who had been attacked.”
In South Africa: “One in three of the 4,000 women questioned by the Community of Information, Empowerment and Transparency said they had been raped in the past year”
In DNC: “Rape is simply a fact of life”

On top of these disturbing statements, these women didn’t just have sex against their will. They were raped with objects, their insides destroyed.
On a young girl, a pelvis “[hasn’t] yet grown large enough to accommodate the baby’s head, a common occurrence with young teenagers…[these girls end] up in obstructed birth, with the baby stuck inside [their] birth passage…[often, they can’t] walk or stand, a consequence of nerve damage that is a frequent by-product of fistulae." (source)

As disturbing as it is to think about, do you REALLY think that if you had been gang raped multiple times and had given birth to one of your rapists’ offspring and you don’t even know which one and now your uterus is all messed up from that, that you STILL would not use birth control? I dare you, or anyone, to tell me that even in situations like these, you still think prevention of pregnancy by the use of prophylactic birth control is intrinsically evil. Does anyone here truly think that the ends (preventing a young girl from dying during childbirth or living permanently disabled due to a difficult birth or from giving birth to her own half brother) does not justify the means? If so, IMO, you need to rethink your morals bc that is messed up.

Birth control is wrong. You are trying to justify sin by using some silly argument about what might happen. Rape is truly tragic but how could anyone in all sanity prepare for rape? I think you are merely using this sort of scenario to try to invent some kind of logical rationalization for doing what the church has forbidden. And then you go so far as to try to insinuate that it is a lack of compassion to speak against something that God has forbidden. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

What you are trying to do is to use some sort of warped sense of compassion to justify choosing to sin.

 

[JaneGrey]

I have no argument with you there.

Agreed.

Now I disagree. Here’s a simple question that should make clear why: If a man is raped, it is extremely likely that he is in prison and that he bears some responsibility for being there. Do you really want to say that a man who is raped in prison could no more have prevented his being raped than a young child who is raped? Now what about a woman who gets drunk and goes to bed with a drunk Mike Tyson and gets raped: does she bear no more responsibility than the young child who is raped? The answers here are obvious. The suggestion that acknowledging this reality has anything to do with claiming that we should feel we have a right to rape others is completely absurd and dishonest.

It doesnt matter if its a little girl or a woman in prison - the innocence or character of the rape victim should not even be a consideration here. Two wrongs dont make a right.

Getting drunk and going to bed with Mike Tyson are not crimes. Taking advantage of someone is. Until getting drunk and going to bed with Mike Tyson become crimes no one should use the victim to deflect attention away from the rapist’s wrongdoings.

God bless

 

[JaneGrey]

Another thread was at risk of being derailed bc the subject of birth control and rape came up (on a thread about NFP and marriage) so I started a new thread. So people dissing my OP as ridiculous or not worthy of an answer should be made aware that technically none of this was my idea. I just moved someone else’s idea to a new thread.

It is nothing like that. It is more analogous to a policeman wearing a bulletproof vest before invading a house of drug lords.

Sigh. This has already been explained. This thread is about protecting yourself from ONE thing - pregnancy - that LIKELY will happen!

Here I will explain more fully some examples:

Say a 14 year old girl is being raped a couple times a week by her father or brother. She can take the morning after pill, but the morning after pill’s effectiveness drops way down when it is used regularly. This girl has a significant (basically certain) chance of getting raped again, and more effective methods of preventing pregnancy are available. Do you not see how the “intrinsic evil” of contraception is completely bogus if it means preventing a teenage girl from giving birth to her own HALF BROTHER! That is NOTHING like wearing a football helmet before you leave the house! Nothing! While you are entitled to your opinion, I question your ability to imagine yourself in that position, because it is unfathomable to me that someone would not even consider using birth control in that situation.

Another example:
People seem to not be comprehending the probability of getting raped. Here are some quotes to consider:

During the Rwandan Genocide: “rape was the rule and its absence the exception.”
In the Darfur region of Sudan: “No woman or girl is safe.” One reporter said “every woman or girl she spoke to had either endured sexual assault herself, or knew of someone who had been attacked.”
In South Africa: “One in three of the 4,000 women questioned by the Community of Information, Empowerment and Transparency said they had been raped in the past year”
In DNC: “Rape is simply a fact of life”

On top of these disturbing statements, these women didn’t just have sex against their will. They were raped with objects, their insides destroyed.
On a young girl, a pelvis “[hasn’t] yet grown large enough to accommodate the baby’s head, a common occurrence with young teenagers…[these girls end] up in obstructed birth, with the baby stuck inside [their] birth passage…[often, they can’t] walk or stand, a consequence of nerve damage that is a frequent by-product of fistulae." (source)

As disturbing as it is to think about, do you REALLY think that if you had been gang raped multiple times and had given birth to one of your rapists’ offspring and you don’t even know which one and now your uterus is all messed up from that, that you STILL would not use birth control? I dare you, or anyone, to tell me that even in situations like these, you still think prevention of pregnancy by the use of prophylactic birth control is intrinsically evil. Does anyone here truly think that the ends (preventing a young girl from dying during childbirth or living permanently disabled due to a difficult birth or from giving birth to her own half brother) does not justify the means? If so, IMO, you need to rethink your morals bc that is messed up.

Im really curious to see how other catholic posters address this, if they even address it at all.

 

[samiam1611]

Im really curious to see how other catholic posters address this, if they even address it at all.

two people did (so far.) Note that I did aplogize for the rude tone of my post. I read some pretty horrible things while trying to find those quotes and I think it had me all worked up!

 

[Betterave]

Now respectfully; I have to ask where do you base the premise of these assumptions hinting the likely-hood that the majority of men that are raped come from prisons?

Not they “come from” prisons, they are in prison.

True there are many men raped from prisons as are women, but, to say that most men that are raped come from prisons is based on false speculation.

Is it??

Rape is about POWER. No man in Prison takes responsible blame for his rape just because he’s incarcerated. How radically rediculous.

I never claimed otherwise.

Any man can be raped anywhere in the same way women can be raped anywhere.

That’s idiotic. Can a man who never goes to prison be raped in prison? Obviously not.

aest.org.uk/survivors/male/myths_about_male_rape.htm

When your site mentioned “emotional blackmail” as a possible way for women to rape men, I laughed and stopped reading. What idiotic nonsense. What an atrocious abuse of language. If that’s the model of reasoning you want to follow, have at it. Don’t pretend you’re being reasonable though.

 

[Betterave]

I don’t think the answers are obvious. If I leave my car door unlocked is it my fault for someone stealing the change out of it?

Obviously, depending on the circumstances, quite possibly yes. What did you think?

Do I deserve to have something stolen from me?

Have I said anything to suggest an affirmative answer to this question?

I definitely think the act of theft is still 100% the responsibility of the thief no matter what I could have done to deter it.

Well you’re wrong and obviously so. If you’re in pickpocket central, say the city of Rome, and you leave your cash sitting in plain view on a bench while you go look at souvenirs in a store on the other side of the street, you are a dum bass and partially responsible for any act of theft that occurs.

I maybe dumb for leaving my door unlocked, but I don’t think that in any way shifts any of the blame from the thief to me for the act of theft. I may guilty of being irresponsible, but I’m not guilty of theft.

Uh, yeah! Obviously you’re not guilty of theft! I never suggested anything of the sort.

Likewise, the rapist is solely guilty for rape.

Likewise, mutatis mutandis, for rape.

 

[Betterave]

With all due respect, and without meaning to insult: what in the world would make you write things like this?

With all due respect, what in the world motivates you to ask a question like this? I’d be happy to answer your question if you would explain what you mean to imply with the words “like this.”

Honestly, I’m not insulting you or anything, but you need to do some research on rape statistics. In particular, you need to do some research on male rape victims.

I see. Well I’m happy to be corrected, but I still believe what I have read (and that would constitute research, wouldn’t it?): that the vast majority of rapes of males occur in prisons. You have some research to counter that claim?

It’s difficult to have a meaningful discussion with those who obviously aren’t very knowledgeable about the topic being discussed.

Indeed. And more to the point, it’s difficult to have a meaningful discussion with those who think they are more knowledgeable than they really are and who lack basic critical thinking skills.

 

[Betterave]

I don’t think their morals are deficient. I think, instead, that there is a total lack of knowledge in this area. Maybe it’s too disturbing for them to believe that these dangers exist in some parts of the world.

A lack of knowledge can lead to deficient morals, so you’re posing a false dichotomy here.

 

[Betterave]

It doesnt matter if its a little girl or a woman in prison - the innocence or character of the rape victim should not even be a consideration here. Two wrongs dont make a right.

I never suggested that two wrongs make a right. It is astonishing how consistently irrational people can be in making silly false inferences like this when talking about rape.

Getting drunk and going to bed with Mike Tyson are not crimes. Taking advantage of someone is. Until getting drunk and going to bed with Mike Tyson become crimes no one should use the victim to deflect attention away from the rapist’s wrongdoings.

God bless

Actually, even if getting drunk and going to bed with Mike Tyson were crimes, it would still be the case that no one should use the victim (who in this case would also happen to be a criminal) to deflect attention away from the rapist’s wrongdoings.

 

[Betterave]

Birth control is wrong. You are trying to justify sin by using some silly argument about what might happen. Rape is truly tragic but how could anyone in all sanity prepare for rape? I think you are merely using this sort of scenario to try to invent some kind of logical rationalization for doing what the church has forbidden. And then you go so far as to try to insinuate that it is a lack of compassion to speak against something that God has forbidden. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

What you are trying to do is to use some sort of warped sense of compassion to justify choosing to sin.

Aren’t you just begging the question here about what the Church has forbidden? The context for the claim that contraception is intrinsically evil has been explained (perhaps not exhaustively) by the Church, but you don’t seem to be addressing that.

 

[Betterave]

As disturbing as it is to think about, do you REALLY think that if you had been gang raped multiple times and had given birth to one of your rapists’ offspring and you don’t even know which one and now your uterus is all messed up from that, that you STILL would not use birth control? I dare you, or anyone, to tell me that even in situations like these, you still think prevention of pregnancy by the use of prophylactic birth control is intrinsically evil. Does anyone here truly think that the ends (preventing a young girl from dying during childbirth or living permanently disabled due to a difficult birth or from giving birth to her own half brother) does not justify the means? If so, IMO, you need to rethink your morals bc that is messed up.

Catholic bioethicists agree that it is permissible to take therapeutic measures that will result in the death of an innocent human being as long as those measures are necessary to preserve another human life and the death is not directly intended and used as a means to preserving the other human life. It seems like you could extend that principle to say that it is permissible to take therapeutic measures that will result in the prevention of a pregnancy (and its negative side-effects), provided those measures are necessary to preserve the girl’s life and health, and provided the prevention of pregnancy in question does not itself constitute a moral evil. But we all know that the prevention of pregnancy as such does not constitute a moral evil. So is there any reason to regard it as such in the kind of case we are discussing here? I can’t see any.

 

[copperblade]

Well you’re wrong and obviously so. If you’re in pickpocket central, say the city of Rome, and you leave your cash sitting in plain view on a bench while you go look at souvenirs in a store on the other side of the street, you are a dum bass and partially responsible for any act of theft that occurs.

I think underlying this is the idea that I somehow deserve what I got because I should have known the consequences. In other words, the consequences are so obvious that they can be treated as impersonal. But I don’t see how you can admit both:

1. I’m not responsible for the crime
2. I don’t deserve to be pick-pocketed

and then also say:

1. I am partially responsible

Will the thief get off partially in court because I was dumb? Would society, given the chance, just let the thief keep the some of the items just because I was dumb? If I both didn’t deserve it, and didn’t commit the act, I am not responsible in that sense of the word.

Maybe the difference is wide range of usage of the word “responsibility” which implies not only guilt but also in some circumstances implies a duty. You may think I’m responsible in the sense of the word that I have a duty to be smarter or else suffer the consequences. But like I said, that implies I deserve the consequences.