What is your position concerning the concept of hell?

[Thing]

How “authoritative” is that distinction? Is it your own, or do you have it from somewhere else?

As I said in the other post: I use the two words synonomously.

Obviously its a natural and a real distinction.
Unless you are someone who would hang the criminal *and *the innocent traveller just because they did not happen to ride with the posse !

 

[LutheranDK]

Thats the thing is’nt it; an unbeliever might love to be christian, she might live always according to christian values of love and mercy without knowing the true reason why. She might have a natural attraction for goodness and she would recognize and accept the goodness in the christian message if she heard it. Is she to be condemned for loving goodness and living a life of mercy just because she was not tall enough to see or hear Christ when He passed by.

We keep having to come back to what Scripture teaches in this discussion. There’s no way around it.
Just as faith without works is a dead faith that will not save you, so works without faith are dead works (“deeds of the Law”, is that the phrase in English?), and will not save you. He/She who does not know Christ does not know the Father, because no one can come to the Father except through Christ.

It really IS that simple.

 

[LutheranDK]

Obviously its a natural and a real distinction.
Unless you are someone who would hang the criminal *and *the innocent traveller just because they did not happen to ride with the posse !

Your comparison makes no sense…?

 

[jmcrae]

Your comparison makes no sense…?

The “posse” is the Catholic Church. The “criminal” is the person who has rejected Christ. The “innocent traveller” is someone who is seeking the Truth but has not yet found it.

 

[Thing]

We keep having to come back to what Scripture teaches in this discussion. There’s no way around it.
Just as faith without works is a dead faith that will not save you, so works without faith are dead works (“deeds of the Law”, is that the phrase in English?), and will not save you. He/She who does not know Christ does not know the Father, because no one can come to the Father except through Christ.

It really IS that simple.

You make the mistake in thinking that I say people can be saved by their works or by their paganism or by their own ideas.
People can only be saved through the Catholic Church. Only through one Church.
We only know of one way to get to heaven, or one route to heaven. Because we were only told of one route or one way.
What we do not know is what happens to everyone who travels a different path not from choice but because Christ did not reach them yet. Of those people, we are not told what happens.
You, on the other hand, are talking about people who have made a concious decision to try and ‘be saved’ only by their own works or efforts in preference to Catholicism.
You keep avoiding ‘those’ people who have not rejected Christ and you are quick to condemn them. Instead of the more Christlike attitude when the apostle asked the same question of Christ “Who then can be saved?” and God answered 'With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible. ’

16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

In justice, all people must have this opportunity to hear His voice, for man, this is clearly impossible, christianity does not spread quickly enough through the millenia to reach every single person in every nation, it spreads as quickly as is possible for man to spread it. But God said He must also bring sheep not of this fold, they too must hear His voice.
In justice then, I think, all must hear His voice. And for God this is not impossible.

 

[jargon631]

I guess we could begin by speculating that since people are basically good (we’re assuming that goodness correctly describes the underlying reality of our human nature) then they will be able to save themselves from hell by virtue of their own goodness? Might we also reasonably suppose that those people who embrace evil must have made a conscious effort to defy God’s goodness and the natural state of goodness that He had bestowed upon them in order to become evil and thus would be culpable in the eyes of God for doing so and therefore deserve punishment in hell?

Speculatively,
Mick

sorry, mick…it took me a while to get back…i think that goodevil people are “made”…a baby is pure and innocent…it is our experiences, and the conclusions\decisions that we come to\make based on these that shift us to one side of good\evil or the other…at birth, even idi amin was innocent…it was his experiences\decisions\influences\maybe psychosis that made him a monster…fd

 

[jargon631]

Of course not.
.(If you have any) Your infant children are unbelievers, until, they grow old enough to ‘read and come to faith’ (as you might say) they have rejected nothing of Christs’ teachings.
If your children grow old enough to read and then reject what they read in Scriptures they become disbelievers.
An unbeliever encompases people who never met Christ but who would love the truth if they knew it.
A disbeliever is one who has heard the truth, understands it, and still rejects it. They do not want it.

well…that presupposes a great deal…you are assuming that someone who has never heard of christianity will automatically desire it once it has been introduced…i lived the external life of christianity(not my choice, btw) for years without beleiving in jesus or salvation…that doesnt have anything to do with me not “understanding” the christian “truth”…it has to do with me having to deal with the aberrant behavior of the christians who force-fed me that stuff and rejecting both it, and them…i’m not talking about once a week church, mind you…i,m talking about living at a religious boarding school, 24/7/365 for 13 years…day in, day out…ad nauseum…after all that, i went away from christianity as fast and as far as i could go…i have two sisters who lived at that school also(our parents were faculty)…both are now atheists…but hey!!..i’m a deist, so i at least believe in a creator of some kind……fd

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5020993:

I guess we could begin by speculating that since people are basically good (we’re assuming that goodness correctly describes the underlying reality of our human nature) then they will be able to save themselves from hell by virtue of their own goodness? Might we also reasonably suppose that those people who embrace evil must have made a conscious effort to defy God’s goodness and the natural state of goodness that He had bestowed upon them in order to become evil and thus would be culpable in the eyes of God for doing so and therefore deserve punishment in hell?

Speculatively,
Mick

sorry, mick…it took me a while to get back…i think that goodevil people are “made”…a baby is pure and innocent…it is our experiences, and the conclusions\decisions that we come to\make based on these that shift us to one side of good\evil or the other…at birth, even idi amin was innocent…it was his experiences\decisions\influences\maybe psychosis that made him a monster…fd

I agree. But how can the notion of hell be incorporated into this analysis?

Wonderingly,
Mick

 

[jargon631]

I agree. But how can the notion of hell be incorporated into this analysis?

Wonderingly,
Mick

welll…i dont believe in hell……fd

 

[SSTeacher]

welll…i dont believe in hell……fd

Would you care to explain your thinking?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[jargon631]

Would you care to explain your thinking?

Curiously,
Mick

well…im not a christian, and as such i dont believe in heaven, hell, or salvation…i have a creator, for there is no other way to explain the glory and wonder of nature… i feel that the rest, however, is a construct…one that came about over the centuries as a means of giving people a stabilizing influence and and ensuring a “moral rudder” for burgeoning civilisations…bear in mind,though, that i dont consider it to be a bad thing…happily…frederick

 

[SSTeacher]

well…im not a christian, and as such i dont believe in heaven, hell, or salvation…i have a creator, for there is no other way to explain the glory and wonder of nature… i feel that the rest, however, is a construct…one that came about over the centuries as a means of giving people a stabilizing influence and and ensuring a “moral rudder” for burgeoning civilisations…bear in mind,though, that i dont consider it to be a bad thing…happily…frederick

Frederick,

But evil definitely is a bad thing. God allows us to choose between good and evil, right? My suggestion, then, is that God (the Creator) has a right to punish those who mess up His creation by their conscious decisions to do evil.

Can you agree to this?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[jargon631]

Frederick,

But evil definitely is a bad thing. God allows us to choose between good and evil, right? My suggestion, then, is that God (the Creator) has a right to punish those who mess up His creation by their conscious decisions to do evil.

Can you agree to this?

Cordially,
Mick
/QUOTE

why yes…yes i can …lol…fd

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5319078:

Frederick,

But evil definitely is

a bad thing. God allows us to choose between good and evil, right? My suggestion, then, is that God (the Creator) has a right to punish those who mess up His creation by their conscious decisions to do evil.

Can you agree to this?

Cordially,
Mick


why yes…yes i can …lol…fd

And you can agree to it because it makes sense, right?

Analytically,
Mick

 

[StevieD]

well…you have to realise that i dont necessarily believe in heaven, hell, or salvation…i know that some may find that offensive, but no offense is intended…fd

To those who said that they did not believe in hell, Padre Pio always responded “Don’t worry my friend, you will when you get there”!

Our Lady at Fatima not only showed the children a vision of hell but showed them that many souls were already there.
“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.” Our Lady also indicated (I recall reading) that many of the soldiers who had died in the First World War were in hell, mainly for sins of impurity.
I would recommend that you read some of the accounts of near death/death experiences by e.g. Howard Storm and Mark McCormack.

 

[SSTeacher]

To those who said that they did not believe in hell, Padre Pio always responded “Don’t worry my friend, you will when you get there”!

Do you have any idea of the tone of voice he used when he made this habitual announcement?

Our Lady at Fatima not only showed the children a vision of hell but showed them that many souls were already there.
“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.” Our Lady also indicated (I recall reading) that many of the soldiers who had died in the First World War were in hell, mainly for sins of impurity.

Can you please say if Catholics are required to believe in this vision?

I would recommend that you read some of the accounts of near death/death experiences by e.g. Howard Storm and Mark McCormack.

As you’ll probably have gleaned from earlier posts Frederick has been on the receiving end of the nastier kind of religiosity, which has doubtless greatly influenced the way in which he makes sense of both the material and the ethereal and I don’t think he’ll be particularly eager to go hunting for the accounts you are plugging. But as you’ve mentioned them, perhaps you could provide a synopsis?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[StevieD]

Do you have any idea of the tone of voice he used when he made this habitual announcement?

Can you please say if Catholics are required to believe in this vision?

As you’ll probably have gleaned from earlier posts Frederick has been on the receiving end of the nastier kind of religiosity, which has doubtless greatly influenced the way in which he makes sense of both the material and the ethereal and I don’t think he’ll be particularly eager to go hunting for the accounts you are plugging. But as you’ve mentioned them, perhaps you could provide a synopsis?

Cordially,

Mick

Mick I believe that you are being a little condescending here but here goes:

1. I have no idea of the tone used by Padre Pio but, if you know anything of him, you will know that he said what he meant.
2. We are not required to believe private revelations but as this one was backed up by a miracle witnessed by up to 70,000 people and reported in the anti-Catholic press, I think that we can give it credibility.
   3, I am not ‘plugging’ anything, if you are interested just google the names.
   This is frightening stuff to me as well as everyone else (I know that I am a sinner) and I take no pleasure in reporting these relevant pieces of information (as I consider them) but do so in order that people can consider them as I have.

 

[jargon631]

To those who said that they did not believe in hell, Padre Pio always responded “Don’t worry my friend, you will when you get there”!

Our Lady at Fatima not only showed the children a vision of hell but showed them that many souls were already there.
“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.” Our Lady also indicated (I recall reading) that many of the soldiers who had died in the First World War were in hell, mainly for sins of impurity.
I would recommend that you read some of the accounts of near death/death experiences by e.g. Howard Storm and Mark McCormack.

my friend…i am a 46 year old man who was raised at a christian boarding school…the conclusions that i have come to were reached after many, many years of consideration, self-analysis and lifes little situations…btw…thank you for the accounts of near-death experiences…i would recommend that you read some medical accounts regarding hallucinations that were the result of oxygen starvation of the brain caused by near-death experiences……frederick

 

[jargon631]

And you can agree to it because it makes sense, right?

Analytically,
Mick

hi mick…yes…it makes sense, but this is where a persons concept of deity/higher intelligence comes into play…is a person cast into a netherworld or is the person’s punishment for his evil ways a miserable life caused by karma/consequences of behavior/some intangible other?..frederick

 

[yellowbicycle]

SS Teacher - I think this is a GREAT question.
I will go with option H. What’s option H, you say?
Hell’s real, and I’m afraid when I die I’m going somewhere in a handbasket.
Srsly.
I don’t know if I’m going to make it up to heaven. It’s not looking promising…
I’m getting worried.

Man, life was like a hundred times easier as an atheist.
Ah, for the good ol days…

I don’t entirely understand the ‘universalist’ view that everyone gets to heaven.
Not everyone wants heaven.
Why would God MAKE someone spend eternity with Him if they don’t want to?
If someone believes in Heaven (eternity WITH God), then I don’t think it would be a great leap in logic to say that there could be an eternity WITHOUT God.