What is your take on "Jehovah's Witnesses" sect?

[ShanPO]

Logically here is demonstrating another tactic of the Jehovah’s Witnesses that supports my take on that sect:

• Claiming that Jewish and secular history are incorrect.
• Ignoring direction from the Governing Body.

Starting with the last first:

Bringing Reproach Upon Jehovah by Ignoring Direction

When I served in the past in oversight of my congregation, some of the other elders and ministerial servants and I would often sigh over how many problematic members there were that lived according to a double-standard.

The Governing Body would be clear about what SHOULD NOT be done in their private lives, such as the current information regarding refuting views contrary to the Witnesses, building websites to defend Watchtower teachings, and joining and participating in Internet forums.

While these certain brothers and sisters had no problem with telling others where they needed correction, they refused to apply the direction from the “faithful and discreet slave” class to themselves. These ones were often the JWs who made a bad name for the others, publicly demonstrating a brazen attitude and therefore bringing reproach upon Jehovah’s name and his organization through their actions.

“What is written in the Watchtower doesn’t apply to me,” was the anthem of these problematic Witnesses who were making it hard for the rest of those who were being faithful.

The fact is that there wouldn’t be so many complaints to make about the Witnesses if there weren’t so many among them who set a bad example of not following direction.

History Hijinks

As to claiming that secular and Jewish history are incorrect, the Witnesses expect us to accept their use of two logical fallacies: namely an “argument from authority” (i.e., offering blurbs and quotes from “experts” as “proof”) and “special pleading” (otherwise known as “moving the goalposts”).

The Witnesses have done much in this area regarding Jewish history. For example, in their book “Worldwide Security Under the Prince of Peace” published in 1986 they claimed that Jews kept their genealogical records at the Second Temple, and since it was destroyed by the Romans in the year 70, Jews don’t know their lineage or tribe any longer.

This is false, of course, as many Jews know their ancestry, and family histories were kept with each family itself. On page 103, par. 11 they claim that Jews don’t know who is of the tribe of Levi today, yet that is one of the best known family lines today, often connected to the well-known name “Cohen” or similar spellings.

Their arguments for 607 BCE are just as unfounded in the face of examination, but noteworthy is the “special pleading” approach employed.

Sorry, We’ve Moved

Little know fact is that the 607 date is a “goalpost” that’s been admittedly moved by the Witnesses themselves. Originally the 1914 date was calculated using 606 BCE as the starting date for their countdown to 1914:

It seems to be well settled now in the minds of the anointed that the Gentile Times, which began in 606 B.C., ended in 1914.–The Watchtower, March 1, 1925, p.67.

The Witnesses admit moving the “goalpost” themselves, claiming that they:

…had not realized that there is no zero year between “B.C.” and “A.D.” Later, when research made it necessary to adjust B.C. 606 to 607 B.C.E., the zero year was also eliminated, so that the prediction held good at "A.D. 1914.–Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand!, p.105

It makes it hard to accept people who don’t follow the direction of their own leadership and will “move the goalpost” to suit their own needs.

Logically, you care to answer this?

 

[adf417]

Logically, you care to answer this?

Or any of the other threads that have lingering questions?

 

[badJojo]

In March I posted here how the Jehovah’s actually were the spark that ignited my renew and excitement to scriptures and path back to an active Catholic faith. The path continues and I am more excited and happier than I have been probably ever. So I need to be sure I understand what my Jehovah “friend” may be up to as previous I was naïve about their methods. So Harold has continued to stop and visit with me normally with his wife who has been a JW all her life. Harold admitted he became active about 5 years after his children had grown and moved on. After about 3 visits and I was doing my own bible studies with my Catholic parish I began asking question of Harold and respectfully hearing Harold out and speaking openly on my beliefs and where they did not align. Then Harold started coming with other folks to introduce me to. They seemed to be more JW versed and we further engaged in deeper questions and discussions. I still do look thru the handouts and ignore the bias Catholic bashing and often note Bible references and read the entire ref in context and fully see how JW prove points by snips of words bent in their direction. For me Harold is making me a stronger Catholic. So here is where I am now confused. After my post here and comments from St Donatu I started to fully understand that I was a statistic and only helped Harold with whatever tracking requirements he needed for his door to door file. Then It happened. Harold stopped and he was speaking to me on some issue in Genesis. He showed me his bible and pointed to the verse. I said wait that’s different and my New American was close by so I grabbed mine… we compared and I spoke on my take and he became quiet. I noted to Harold that his Bible leaned readers certain ways and that my Bible was different. Now I’ll note that they had given me one of their Bibles about 3 visits prior and on occasion I used it and compared it to mine. So in kind I said Harold hold on I bought 5 bibles to give my kids and I have 2 extras…let me give you a copy of my New American. This way we both can see the views on the topics we speak about. I also asked for his email so I could send him some links I found inspiring. He shared his email and he accepted my Bible. However, the visits began to be every 3 weeks and now maybe once a month. Yesterday after over a month Harold stopped. He was alone and dropped off the handout of the month. He also noted that he had seen my email. ( I have been sending out a Lenten post to my family and CCing Harold … religious food for thought for my kids and ideas to help prayer) He stated that he has been busy and not able to respond but he wished he could write how I do as it was touching. After reading many posts in this thread I am assuming Harold will soon be told to drop me and end communication. But I think he actually likes me as I honestly do him. I respect his faith and belief albeit IT is not mine. I have fallen in love with Christ and my Catholic faith. So Is he coming to me? Possibly is he questioning his JW faith? Or is he gaming me as a JW thinking I may still turn?
Peace and Blessing to all whatever path you are on. Joe

 

[jesuspsr]

Whew I just finished reading every single post on this very informative thread. Thank you everyone for you post.

DelsonJacobs a special and warm thank you for you informative responses. It makes so much sence to me now, why the JW I know behave the way they do. You have given me a new pair of glasses.

As for the ones that go door to door. Well, at least the ones that have come to my door. And their haven’t been that many. As soon as they see me, I see fear in them and very rapidly leave. Weird, I don’t if that’s a good thing, (that way they won’t bother me) or bad.

God bless you all

jesus g

 

[esieffe]

I just tell them I am busy, have a great day and close the door. I have worked with a few, they seem very friendly to me, but I do have a funny story about one that worked for me when I was young and in retail management.

I was at the JWs cash register in the front of a busy store. It was Christmas. I had to run the register for her while she dug through the trash for her 14k gold chain. I started singing “I’d rather have Jesus than silver or gold.” She was laughing and swatting me at the same time, [still digging through the trash] I made my point, very gently, but I made my point.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Many years when I was a room mother for one of my children’s class, we found out that
while the JW children can accept a gift (at our Christmas party) they are not allowed to
bring one. Unfortunately, we were one gift short, and my daughter got her gift “later.”
She really wasn’t too upset, but it would have been nice if the mother of the child had
let us know ahead of time.
Just recently I spotted two young JW teenagers coming to my door. They had left a
flyer invitation to a meeting the prior week so I was pretty sure that was what they were
going to invite me to. I was right and when they asked, I said I would go if they would
accept my invitation to my church. They looked puzzled and repeated the invitation and
I repeated mine. They left after that.
Maybe I should have handled it differently, but I said a prayer that I would say the right thing and that is what came out.

 

[Estevao]

I would only admire them for their commitment to learning about the Bible and for their brand of proselytizing, and perhaps for their martyrs in the Nazi Holocaust.

However otherwise they are a dangerous cult that probably lead more people away from Christ than to him when you take account of all the people that renounce religion after having dealt with this sect.

 

[Logically]

… when I was a Jehovah’s Witness. …

The Governing Body has instructed all Jehovah’s Witnesses:

It would be a mistake to think that you need to listen to apostates or to read their writings to refute their arguments. Their twisted, poisonous reasoning can cause spiritual harm and can contaminate your faith like rapidly spreading gangrene. (2 Timothy 2:16, 17) …

• --The Watchtower, February 15, 2004, p. 28.*

…
​

Are you an apostate?

Were you convinced JW’s were the truth -and something stumbled you - and now you work against what you knew was true?

You certainly seem very angry at the JW’s.

Jesus said at Matthew 7:6: “…do not throw pearls before swine.”

What Jesus meant was - don’t waste valuable things on ones who do not appreciate them. It is a vivid illustration the son of God made isn’t it? Imagine putting precious pearls before swine. They would just trample them or eat them!
What a waste.

i suppose I could set aside several hours and write posts refuting your bitter accusations - but why? What would be the point?

Would you appreciate them?

Is there a 1% chance you would say: “Oh - good point. I never thought of that. You are right.”

No.

You admit you were a JW! An elder perhaps? (you refered to “other elders and ministerial servants”)

So you must have spent years studying with them.

You were* totally convinced* and could prove with references and evidence and scriptures they were the truth!

You voluntarily promised publicly to follow the truth you had found.

Now you work against what you knew was the truth from Jehovah.

Should i spend time trying to refute your accusations?

Jesus answers that at Matthew 7:6.

Rant away good sir. Beg me to reply and confront you!

I will not.

Mental note Logically: “Do not reply to Delsonsjacobs posts again.”​

 

[Logically]

Logically, you care to answer this?

Hi there.

Sorry friend, I haven’t been online all week!

What question would you like answered?

Pick one an i will do some research.

 

[Logically]

Or any of the other threads that have lingering questions?

Sorry.

i am slack.

I only log on occasionally - and often find myself overwhelmed by half a dozen posts for my one! (at which point I put the reply in my “to do” basket and usually don’t get around to it!)

If it is a serious question… (not a bitter anti-JW attack) … I would seriously be happy to try and answer it.

What is the question?

 

[Logically]

hey thanks pronger1.

I would like to reply in more datail. Do you mind? or should I private message you?

Some of your thoughts and doubts are ones I have had to address myself.
The “607 BC” one I spotted back in highschool (my history book said 587) and that concern had lingered in my head for decades.
I have recently found a few bits of information that has settled my doubts on that one.

Will write again soon.

Logically

Hi there.

You probably haven’t had a chance to reply.

Before I forget: Here are the links to the WT articles that explian the 607 thing. “When was ancient Jerusalem destroyed?” part 1 and 2.

wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011736?q=jerusalem+destroyed&p=par

wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011810?q=jerusalem+607&p=par

Very nicely researched and explained (if you are into that sort of thing)

It bascially comes down to this question: "Should we believe what the Bible prophets say before, during and after the event? -

• or should we believe some ancient historians who wrote hundreds of years after the event, who we know are full of errors, exagerations, omissions, contradictions and inaccuracies?

(We all know which one the Bible critics have chosen and is considered official history )

If we decide the later : Why bother trying to unravel the Daniel 2 prophecy at all? The Bible is inaccurate! Ha!

All the best, and I hope it helps answer some doubts.

Logically.

 

[Logically]

Logically, you care to answer this?

Wow. I logged on this morning expecting to see a torrent of replies to yesterdays posts. Silence.

Here is what occurred to me at 5am:

Bible prophesy is a jigsaw puzzle!

(insert nice picture of jigsaw puzzle here

It is a hugely complex puzzle containing thousands of pieces that need to be put together to form a clear picture.
It is very important we do this. Our God has given us hundreds of prophesies in his word the Bible. Scores have come true and we can review and marvel at their accuracy, and we can be encouraged to keep trying to put the puzzle together.

But like any puzzle, as the pieces go together, you will need to make adjustments to some you have already placed. - Otherwise the puzzle will never come together.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have a better understanding of these prophesies than any group I know of. They have diligently worked on putting these prophesies together since the start. of course in doing so they have had to adjust details as more pieces are identified and fit.

Yesterdays Watchtower dealt with “the four horsemen of the apocalypse” of Revelatioon 6. A while ago we reviewed in depth “the faithful and discreet slave” Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24. There are whole books explaining verse by verse the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation and the other prophets! Amazing stuff! I love it.

And the critics scramble to discredit us. Who?
Who would criticize ones for trying to put together the Bible prophesies?
Ones who have done a far better job themselves? Are they ones who say: “You poor JW’s have got it wrong. Come over here and see how the masters have put the puzzle together.”

No.

There are two types of critics. There are ones from other religions who haven’t done much on Bible prophesy. If you asked them about “Babylon the great” or “the king of the North” or “the faithful and discreet slave” – they wouldn’t be able to explain any of it.
So they are the ones criticizing the witnesses for making adjustments in assembling the puzzle –

• but they haven’t even got all the pieces out of the box and turned them up the right way yet!

The second group is apostates.
These ones were Jehovah’s witnesses once. They were so convinced it was the truth they would go out, unpaid to explain it to others! They could prove it!
But for whatever reason, they stormed out of the organisation or were told to leave. But not content with going quietly, they have turned on what they knew was true and are trying to drag others down too.

So this is the group who has thrown the puzzle on the floor and kicked it away shouting: “I don’t want to do this puzzle!” - then they have turned around and are criticizing the group that is still putting the puzzle together.
Amazing eh? They rant about the JW’s making adjustments – but they themselves have adjusted 180° and are now attacking what they once proclaimed was true!

The hypocrisy is staggering.

It’s a funny situation to look at isn’t it?

 

[Waynec]

Wow. I logged on this morning expecting to see a torrent of replies to yesterdays posts. Silence.

Here is what occurred to me at 5am:

Bible prophesy is a jigsaw puzzle!

(insert nice picture of jigsaw puzzle here

It is a hugely complex puzzle containing thousands of pieces that need to be put together to form a clear picture.
It is very important we do this. Our God has given us hundreds of prophesies in his word the Bible. Scores have come true and we can review and marvel at their accuracy, and we can be encouraged to keep trying to put the puzzle together.

But like any puzzle, as the pieces go together, you will need to make adjustments to some you have already placed. - Otherwise the puzzle will never come together.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have a better understanding of these prophesies than any group I know of. They have diligently worked on putting these prophesies together since the start. of course in doing so they have had to adjust details as more pieces are identified and fit.

Yesterdays Watchtower dealt with “the four horsemen of the apocalypse” of Revelatioon 6. A while ago we reviewed in depth “the faithful and discreet slave” Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24. There are whole books explaining verse by verse the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation and the other prophets! Amazing stuff! I love it.

And the critics scramble to discredit us. Who?
Who would criticize ones for trying to put together the Bible prophesies?
Ones who have done a far better job themselves? Are they ones who say: “You poor JW’s have got it wrong. Come over here and see how the masters have put the puzzle together.”

No.

There are two types of critics. There are ones from other religions who haven’t done much on Bible prophesy. If you asked them about “Babylon the great” or “the king of the North” or “the faithful and discreet slave” – they wouldn’t be able to explain any of it.
So they are the ones criticizing the witnesses for making adjustments in assembling the puzzle –

• but they haven’t even got all the pieces out of the box and turned them up the right way yet!

The second group is apostates.
These ones were Jehovah’s witnesses once. They were so convinced it was the truth they would go out, unpaid to explain it to others! They could prove it!
But for whatever reason, they stormed out of the organisation or were told to leave. But not content with going quietly, they have turned on what they knew was true and are trying to drag others down too.

So this is the group who has thrown the puzzle on the floor and kicked it away shouting: “I don’t want to do this puzzle!” - then they have turned around and are criticizing the group that is still putting the puzzle together.
Amazing eh? They rant about the JW’s making adjustments – but they themselves have adjusted 180° and are now attacking what they once proclaimed was true!

The hypocrisy is staggering.

It’s a funny situation to look at isn’t it?

Hi Logically,

This is not meant to answer all your point but are just my thoughts.

What if a person has been studying with the JW’s for years and has witnessed the changes made to their beliefs due to “enlightenment”? What if he realizes that this happens every 10 years or so? What if he realizes that these changes are not developing a belief but completely changing it? Wouldn’t he wonder why? Wouldn’t he want to search out the scriptures apart from Watchtower influence to see what they really say? Wouldn’t he want to study a religion whose dogmas do not change every 10 years or so? Wouldn’t he want to investigate a religion which has remained the same for 2,000 years? Would he consider himself an apostate? No. I think he would consider himself lied to for years and blest that he has finally found the truth. He would have found himself confined by the Watchtower and liberated by Catholicism.

As far as the puzzle pieces go I think the Watchtower doesn’t find the right places for the pieces but changes them to fit their particular puzzle.

 

[Logically]

Hi Logically,

This is not meant to answer all your point but are just my thoughts. …
.

Thank you. I value them.

…
… What if he realizes that these changes are not developing a belief but completely changing it? Wouldn’t he wonder why? Wouldn’t he want to search out the scriptures apart from Watchtower influence to see what they really say? Wouldn’t he want to study a religion whose dogmas do not change every 10 years or so? Wouldn’t he want to investigate a religion which has remained the same for 2,000 years? .

Fair enough.

But what has completely changed in the Jehovah’s Witness beliefs? Can you give me an example? I can only think of details. (the adjusting the pieces of the puzzle so more fit)

And has the catholic church really not changed in 2000 years?
What of the many councils that have changed things considerably?

Would he consider himself an apostate? No. I think he would consider himself lied to for years and blest that he has finally found the truth. He would have found himself confined by the Watchtower and liberated by Catholicism.

You are right. He would feel that.

Yet I know alot of JW’s who have come other religions (including Catholic) that have come to the opposite conclusion. They are now feel releived that they have found “the truth” (not my words, but what they say)

So I guess we are agreed that one of these religions is not teaching the truth.

What’s behind this? What is the motive of the one that is misleading? Or are they just mistaken do you think?

As far as the puzzle pieces go I think the Watchtower doesn’t find the right places for the pieces but changes them to fit their particular puzzle.

Sort of making up their beliefs and finding bits to try and fit what they want it to show?

Hey thanks for your thoughts!. Please reply.

 

[adf417]

Sorry.

i am slack.

I only log on occasionally - and often find myself overwhelmed by half a dozen posts for my one! (at which point I put the reply in my “to do” basket and usually don’t get around to it!)

Then my suggestion would be to not engage into any new threads until previous threads/questions are completely dealt with. Some people can manage multiple threads Maybe you cannot. CAF has a pretty good mechanism here to help keep up with threads you are subscribed to for this purpose.

If it is a serious question… (not a bitter anti-JW attack) … I would seriously be happy to try and answer it.

Hmmm! You mean unlike your post #251 on this thread?

What is the question?

As I said. I will NOT go back to pull the references again and again. If you truly care to answer, as you say, you will do the work yourself and find the threads you have abandoned.

Peace!!!

 

[adf417]

Wow. I logged on this morning expecting to see a torrent of replies to yesterdays posts. Silence.

After multiple abandoned threads, weeks of no response on this thread, you expect a response in less than 24 hours?

Amazing eh? They rant about the JW’s making adjustments – but they themselves have adjusted 180° and are now attacking what they once proclaimed was true!

Hmmmm! Think about all the Catholics who converted to JW organization which comprise of most of the organization according to the organization. Wouldn’t this logic make them hypocrites also?

The hypocrisy is staggering.

It’s a funny situation to look at isn’t it?

Absolutely!

 

[Logically]

… Some people can manage multiple threads Maybe you cannot. …

I think you are right.

.
If you truly care to answer, as you say, you will do the work yourself and find the threads you have abandoned.

Peace!!!

Well yes and no.
If I have got lost and have missed a question because I am dealing with several others (each of which often have multiple points to try and deal with) - it would not be hard to repeat the question would it?

Excuse me my friend,. But saying: - “Go back and hunt for ones you have missed.” doesn’t really show a sincere interest in the answer does it?

that is like my wife saying: “I am annoyed at you, and if you don’t know why - then I’m sure not going to tell you!”

Just ask it again.

 

[adf417]

Well yes and no.
If I have got lost and have missed a question because I am dealing with several others (each of which often have multiple points to try and deal with) - it would not be hard to repeat the question would it?

You are absolutely right however I have already done this on two previous threads.Why should I think you would not run again and leave this thread as you have proved you will do?

Excuse me my friend,. But saying: - “Go back and hunt for ones you have missed.” doesn’t really show a sincere interest in the answer does it?

Possibly not, unless you consider the past. I’m certain, if you go back, you will see the sincerity I had and what did it get me back then?

Peace!!!

that is like my wife saying: “I am annoyed at you, and if you don’t know why - then I’m sure not going to tell you!”

And if she tells you why she is annoyed do you ignore her and hope she will forget that she is annoyed?

 

[Logically]

And if she tells you why she is annoyed do you ignore her and hope she will forget that she is annoyed?

That’s why she stays cross!

When that happens all i can say is: “I will try to do better in future” and learn from my mistakes.

So - I am sorry I have got overwhelmed by multiple tricky questions in the past and not built up the resolve to sit down and work through them progressively.
Also i freely admit there are some questions I simply don’t know the answer to and procrastinate about tackling until they are lost in the pile of “to answer” questions in my mind.

But I will insist I vanished for several weeks because our internet didn’t exist. That is true.
i am living in Bolivia at the moment and some of their services are not especially prompt or reliable. (sounds like me eh?)

And as I say to my wife: “I will try to do better from now on.”

 

[Waynec]

Thank you. I value them.

Fair enough.

But what has completely changed in the Jehovah’s Witness beliefs? Can you give me an example? I can only think of details. (the adjusting the pieces of the puzzle so more fit)

And has the catholic church really not changed in 2000 years?
What of the many councils that have changed things considerably?

You are right. He would feel that.

Yet I know alot of JW’s who have come other religions (including Catholic) that have come to the opposite conclusion. They are now feel releived that they have found “the truth” (not my words, but what they say)
So I guess we are agreed that one of these religions is not teaching the truth.

What’s behind this? What is the motive of the one that is misleading? Or are they just mistaken do you think?

Sort of making up their beliefs and finding bits to try and fit what they want it to show?

Hey thanks for your thoughts!. Please reply.

UOTE=Logically;11871986]Thank you. I value them.

Fair enough.

But what has completely changed in the Jehovah’s Witness beliefs? Can you give me an example? I can only think of details. (the adjusting the pieces of the puzzle so more fit)

I don’t know the exact dates but once the Witnesses worshiped Jesus and now they don’t.
I believe in Matt.13:33 they believed that the leaven was bad and now they believe,just recently I think, that now it is good leaven. Just to mention 2. I am sure if you read your own history you would find many more.

And has the catholic church really not changed in 2000 years?
What of the many councils that have changed things considerably?

The councils were to define dogmas that they always held from the beginning but were questioned by heretics. The councils didn’t make or change dogma they explained dogma. There have been some changes to disciplines .

Yet I know alot of JW’s who have come other religions (including Catholic) that have come to the opposite conclusion. They are now feel releived that they have found “the truth” (not my words, but what they say)

A catholic who is properly taught his religion would never leave the true church. How can the Witnesses claim that they have the truth when they are about 150 years old and are scripture only people. Where are the writings of their church fathers, where is their ancient history? They were founded by Mr. Russell as you know and now most of his teachings have been reformed or redacted by Mr. Rutherford. So if you are the true religion why were the changes made by Mr. Rutherford and please don’t tell me he was" enlightened" If your founder was enlightened by the spirit the Watchtower would not have had to make so many changes…

So I guess we are agreed that one of these religions is not teaching the truth.

We sure do:thumbsup:

What’s behind this? What is the motive of the one that is misleading? Or are they just mistaken do you think?

This is a good question and I don’t know the answer. I only know that the Catholics have the complete truth and I wouldn’t know what the motives are of the Witnesses you would have to ask your elders or governing body that question.

Sort of making up their beliefs and finding bits to try and fit what they want it to show?

I only know that the Witnesses have a totally different puzzle than the rest of the Christians so their pieces will not fit our puzzle.

Hey thanks for your thoughts!. Please reply.

You are welcome.
God Bless.