What is your view on these verses?

[God_I_Love]

Wasn’t the question you asked along the lines of: are we interested in history or the truth? That implies we’re not interested in the truth. That is what I objected to–not you advancing a different understanding. Perhaps I read your question incorrectly–if I did I apologize.

Again–if you believe the Eucharist is his flesh and blood–why wouldn’t you want to partake of it–given that he commanded us to and that the apostles and earliest Christians did. Why don’t you want to partake of somethings Christ initiated and asked us to do? You say you love Christ–why don’t you want to do what he asks?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Well essentially I am saying that history has nothing to with doctrinal Truth. If we were talking about the history of the church I would gladly indulge that, but we discussing the meaning of Christ’s words, the Truth. While truth and history are not exclusive it’s keeping the content focused on doctrine.
And why not the Catholic priest who’s in the Greek Orthodox? Or the Bishops in the Orthodox Church? Or the remembrance celebrated by some denomination doing as Christ commands ‘‘Do this in remembrance of me’’?

 

[MarkInOregon]

I don’t assume that you aren’t in truth. I’m just discussing, what to my understanding, seems a different view on things. Is that wrong? And if it is wrong will not the Spirit of God reveal to me my error? I wish to WORSHIP the Father in Truth. I don’t deny the Eucharist is His Flesh and Blood. I’m saying so are His Words and Spirit. I do not separate His Divinity (Through the Spirit) from His Body. Is that a false or heretical position?

I am not sure that Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide me individually into all truth, but I am sure he promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide his Church into all truth. If my reading of the Scripture were to conflict with Church teaching I think would think it wiser for me to assume that I had missed something, that there was something I didn’t understand–than to assume that Christ allowed his Church to get it wrong–especially given that he promised to protect it and guide it into all truth. I pray for understanding and wisdom and submit to the teaching authority Christ gave us. I am reading a 2000 year old New Testament with 20th century eyes–I think that may make it difficult for me and I am thankful for 2000 years of unbroken tradition. It is also possible that given my fallen nature–I may miss the correction the Holy Spirit is sending my way or my pride may get in the way of my hearing the Holy Spirits correction–that’s why I listen to the Church. Obviously a lot a people think they have been guided by the Holy Spirit but hold opposite views–clearly that cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit in both of them. Christ prayed for unity for us. We are hardly unified and that is the great tragedy in our witness as Christians. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has tried to speak to you through someone not named MarkInOregon on these forums --the question is when the Holy Spirit speaks to you --how do you know you will recognize it? How do you know the Holy Spirit is not speaking to you through the Catholic Church? I wish to worship God in the manner that he desires. I wish to take up my cross daily and follow Christ doing the will of his Father–the best I can (and I am the first to acknowledge that my best is not very good–and that that gives my some fear as I do not wish to be found to be a goat when I die.). Please pray for me.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

Oh it is an answer in it’s own right but Ill answer your questions. The reason I stated my original question in a choose one over the other fashion is because I’m trying to figure out How these verses go together. ‘‘unless you eat and drink no life in you’’ with ‘‘my words are life’’ and ‘‘abide in Me, and My words abide in you’’. Now did Christ command us to receive the Eucharist once a year? Where? Because the only COMMANDMENT He gave was ''LOVE". Love one another (treat others the way you want to be treated) and Love God.
Properly ordained… with what? Is this a gift of the Holy Ghost like prophecy, or tongues? And what makes it proper?

How did the apostles choose the successors and appoint new deacons and presbyters?

So you dismiss “Do this in memory of me” as something Christ didn’t command us to do?
Obviously the apostles thought this was something Christ wanted them to do. Do you dismiss the other things Christ told us to do? If you Love God you will do what he asked–repent, take up your cross, die daily to yourself, do the will of the Father, etc.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[God_I_Love]

I am not sure that Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide me individually into all truth, but I am sure he promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide his Church into all truth. If my reading of the Scripture were to conflict with Church teaching I think would think it wiser for me to assume that I had missed something, that there was something I didn’t understand–than to assume that Christ allowed his Church to get it wrong–especially given that he promised to protect it and guide it into all truth. I pray for understanding and wisdom and submit to the teaching authority Christ gave us. I am reading a 2000 year old New Testament with 20th century eyes–I think that may make it difficult for me and I am thankful for 2000 years of unbroken tradition. It is also possible that given my fallen nature–I may miss the correction the Holy Spirit is sending my way or my pride may get in the way of my hearing the Holy Spirits correction–that’s why I listen to the Church. Obviously a lot a people think they have been guided by the Holy Spirit but hold opposite views–clearly that cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit in both of them. Christ prayed for unity for us. We are hardly unified and that is the great tragedy in our witness as Christians. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has tried to speak to you through someone not named MarkInOregon on these forums --the question is when the Holy Spirit speaks to you --how do you know you will recognize it? How do you know the Holy Spirit is not speaking to you through the Catholic Church? I wish to worship God in the manner that he desires. I wish to take up my cross daily and follow Christ doing the will of his Father–the best I can (and I am the first to acknowledge that my best is not very good–and that that gives my some fear as I do not wish to be found to be a goat when I die.). Please pray for me.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Ok so the main issue is see here is that you don’t see how the Holy Spirit can be present in someone that holds contradictory views on things than yours? Why would the Spirit of truth guide two people different ways… well understand the Spirit guides our understanding, in so much as we allow. So that leaves us to make conclusions prematurely on something having been given part of the puzzle per say but not having seen the whole of it. I understand a and b really well. But to understand T fully we need a + b + c etc. So having a grasp of a and b I guess at C. And it is there that people disagree. Protestants and Catholic agree in Jesus. They agree in the scriptures for the most part. But justification? sanctification? the role of ‘‘works’’ in faith? what works? These are issues that both can hold to be true. Let me give you an example of this from my own reading of the forums. This is the Holy Spirit in someone else enlightening, or deepening, my understanding of something. this is from the thread “1 Cor 14:5 Tongues and Prophecy”, post # 16 by grannymh.
‘‘I always thought that the problem was not burying the sole talent. The true problem was not digging it up.’’
Here i always found the issue to be burying and hiding the talent but this is a deeper view that reveals more about Truth. It’s a better interpretation that I had never considered.
Now why does Christ allow this disunity? Because a greater unity will be brought forth by it and a strengthened understanding will prevail through the Church. And I will pray for you! We are all in need of God’s glorious riches in Christ’s grace.

 

[God_I_Love]

How did the apostles choose the successors and appoint new deacons and presbyters?

So you dismiss “Do this in memory of me” as something Christ didn’t command us to do?
Obviously the apostles thought this was something Christ wanted them to do. Do you dismiss the other things Christ told us to do? If you Love God you will do what he asked–repent, take up your cross, die daily to yourself, do the will of the Father, etc.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

They did so at the direction of the Holy Spirit. They looked for certain gift and qualities in the person that would suit them for the job. They already had the gifts given them by the Spirit, the issue was recognition of them. Look at some of Paul’s letter to Timothy especially 1 Timothy 3.
And who says I do not or have not done those things? But my questions still remain. I ask to further understanding of things. Now can I ‘‘do this in remembrance of Him’’ on my own?

 

[Darryl_B]

Yes He gave a very simple list of things to do: ‘‘Love one another as I have loved you’’.

So what you are saying is that Jesus ministry was a rather simple thing and He had little to impart? You might remember, if you look back on this thread, I mentioned John 3:5 which I specifically chose exactly for this moment. Does that say “love one another as I have loved you”? No. It does not. John 6 does not say that either. If the entire purpose of Jesus Christ was to give us the words of life, and he gave us those words of life, we would have no further purpose of Jesus Christ.

You are right. When we are a temple of the Holy Ghost we are one with Him. We are in Him and Him in us. Now why the Scriptures are important is because that is

1. where the Gospel is found.
2. The Apostles experience being led by the Spirit and the understanding it gave them and how those ‘‘weaker in faith’’ needed explanation for things. Hence the admonitions and teaching of scripture and philosophy. These are crucial as it allows us to read these experiences and teaching and better our own understanding daily. Because only God’s Spirit can allow anyone to interpret scripture properly.
   So while Jesus didn’t, through his flesh and blood, write the scriptures, He did through others like Paul and Peter.

This is just weird, sorry, it makes no coherent sense. Unless of course you are trying to say that the Holy Spirit has guided you to all Truth?

 

[Darryl_B]

So it is untrue to say Christ’s words are life?

Yes it is. Some atheists read the words of Jesus, to discredit Jesus, do they have life?

 

[God_I_Love]

Two main reasons. One is that our understanding of God’s revelation of Himself develops over time.

Second, the needs of the culture change over time. For example, the issues we see now with legalized abortion and in vitro fertilization did not exist before.

I agree with this. especially your first reason.

As often as the Church deems necessary.

Whom does the deeming? within the Church. The pope? A council?

If you can’t trust Jesus to guide His One Church as He promised, then you certainly will not be able to trust those He has left to serve it until He comes again.

Oh I trust Him to lead us into all truth. But I also trust Satan is going to sift Peter’s faith like wheat. Not that the Catholic Church will teach untruth (faith failing) but that they may teach a form of it that is incomplete in understanding. And that’s when error creeps in. Something hasn’t been adequately defined leaving others in cognitive dissonance still.

Proofreaders do not develop the text. It is developed by those to whom He made the promise that He would guide them into “all Truth”.

‘‘those’’… define whom those are.

This is a very good question. There is quite a bit of scripture in relation to Apostolic Succession. Just a clue, though, since Pentecost we don’t use the drawing of lots anymore.

Oh I understanding the choosing of someone to fill a bishoprick. As they did to replace Judas. Or how they added Paul to the Apostolic Ministry. But Pope? Is this more than a Bishop? Where is this important position (seeing as they would have Primacy or universal supreme jurisdiction (in matters of faith and morals)) outlined in terms of the passing of the keys?

Scripture is written by, for, and about Catholics. It is difficult to understand it apart from the faith that produced it. The Holy Spirit does not guide one person in one direction (with regard to the meaning of scripture) and another in the opposite. Such verses must be understood within their context, which is the Catholic Church.

I agree it is written about God’s Covenant with man and the OT is a forerunner to Israel as God intended, which the formation of this kingdom (the Church) has and is happening now. “YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.” For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But NOW we do NOT yet see all things subjected to him’’ Heb 2:8

God is not bound by the methods He gives to humans. He can give life to whoever He likes however He wants. He gives us a sure and confident way to know we have life in us, through the Eucharist.

Is God bound to his Word?

Perhaps, or perhaps those in schism just did not accept the explanation?

Do you really believe all those Arians just suddenly changed their minds after the Council of Nicea?

When the council first happens it takes a while for it to become universally known. And how many Arians do you know? I do know a lot of people with issues on Justification though. And people with issues on procession of the Holy Spirit. And the Primacy of Rome. So while some councils have done the job in fully explaining (not that they are wrong in any council or explanation) others have not, evidenced by the masses underneath shepards apart from ‘‘communion’’ with Rome.

There is certainly a great deal of ecumenical work yet to be completed.

agreed

It seems absurd to you that people with two different ideas both think they are right?

Not at all. Two people can both also be wrong on one tiny point that is the reason for the misunderstanding. The may be both right that Jesus is Lord, but not on understanding ''hell-fire" theology and how that fits in with the Good News.

Certainly not. I am sure He could have done it that way if He so desired.

And show me what makes you believe He hasn’t done it that way?

Not if it is in contradiction to what God has revealed about Himself. At least unless the person is not invincibly ignorant. I can assure you that you do not qualify as such.

I agree. But how much has been revealed? And how much more is yet to be revealed? Can God not reveal a mystery in the New Covenant at an appointed time that could bring greater knowledge and reconciliation in doctrine? Much as Christ was a ‘‘mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God’’ Eph 3:9 can not a similiar mystery have yet to be revealed to us? Read all of Eph 3 if you haven’t btw. It really highlights this.

This is also an excellent question and one which has been addressed in many ways over the last 2000 years.

Ok can the Spirit of God give me the same power (gift/grace) as a Bishop? Or is it dependent upon another Bishop giving me that gift?

The saints plead with Christ metaphorically? How does that work, exactly?

The people who appeared in Jerusalem after the resurrection were not “ghosts”. Scripture is clear that the tombs were opened. They were in their resurrected bodies.

View things in a sense of End looking back. They are in God at the End, looking back even now.
Ok so they are in the resurrected bodies. Where are they now?

 

[God_I_Love]

I am surprised to read this. Many of your posts seem to indicate that you are educated and know the scriptures. Perhaps you are just in denial.

The nature of hell and sin had already been revealed by God before the Apostles were born. They did not spend a lot of effort addressing revelation that had already occurred.

I only know the Scriptures I’ve been led to read. I haven’t read every verse. But I have read enough to gain congruency on things (after many wayward paths I went down attempting on my own). And really? Please show me these scriptural definition. See cause in Rev, Hell (this place I’m supposed to spend eternity separate or outside of God), is thrown into a pool of fire. Why was I under the impression that the Catholic position on Hell is that it is eternal?

Certainly there are many other things that can be said about sin and hell, in addition to the fact that sin separates us from God.

Oh I agree here. Much can be said on these topics. But separation from God is not True. Nothing can be separate from something that is ALL things. Not aware of God sure… separate? Goes to far and is, by pure logic, discredited as ‘‘accurate’’. It ‘‘misses the mark’’ in defining the nature of sin. You do know ‘‘sin’’ or ‘‘iniquity’’ was a mystery even to Paul and the early apostles? I can vs. (verse) you if you need.

It is a very common fallacy to confuse salvation with love. God loves every person He creates. He loves us so much that He allows us to choose whether or not we wish to be in relationship with Him and to remain with Him for eternity. He will love us as He watches us walk through the gates of hell, if we so desire.

Ok let’s go with a definition of Salvation we can (hopefully) agree on. It’s when one enters the kingdom of God by being reborn. Now after being reborn into this Kingdom can you be unborn? Can the Spirit and water somehow ‘‘lose efficacy’’?

No. The Apostles taught that we are joined to Christ in baptism, and are made members of His One Body, the Church. After being made a member of the Church, one can fall into sin, and thereby be imperfectly joined. Sin, though it separates is from Christ and His church, cannot remove the indelible mark of baptism. We are still children of God, though wayward.

Persons who engage in mortal sins do not inherit the Kingdom, so they cannot be united with their heavenly inheritance that is kept for them imperishable.

So if I’m imperfectly joined to His Church by sin, is part of me in Hell and the other part in heaven? Is perfect ‘‘joining’’ to the Church what saves us?
And your right, those whom commit a ‘‘sin unto death’’ are blind and as long as the remain unenlightened by the Light of God’s Spirit they will wither and burn.

I will agree that sin does sear the conscience and make us more and more unaware of God’s presence and actions. However, there is an objective reality here that is above and beyond individual persons becoming “blind”.

Is God not a bright enough light to always know when to shine (by our perception) to Shepard back His straying flock?

I can certainly agree that your definition here is consistent with hell, which is a state of separation from Christ. We can be in hell here on earth, as well as in eternity.

Can we be in heaven on earth?

So are you one of those New Age proponents who believes God saves everyone?

Jesus took our sins upon Himself on the cross so that we did not have to pay the price.

I don’t know who God saves, or when He saves them, or why He doesn’t save them now but I know God saves whom He will, not whom we will. He saves through Jesus. If He chooses to save everybody would you have a problem with that? What if he brings them all in at the Last Hour? And they receive a full denarius same as us whom have labored long and hard? I wouldn’t mind as long as I have my denarius. Which btw is God’s Love.

 

[God_I_Love]

So do you believe the whole world is saved?

Yep. Christ came to save the world (John 12:47). I believe Christ accomplished that. But as of yet we see not the subjection of all things under Christ.

That depends on a lot of things. If you partake in an unworthy manner, then you will have brought condemnation upon yourself.

Agreed.

No. If you do not partake of the Eucharist, then you have not eaten His words, which command this. To be 'in Christ" means to follow His commandments.

And I can partake of the Lutherans? or Greek orthodox? or… which one? Can I, through the Spirit of Christ, do this remembrance on my own?

You almost come across as a person who is trying to justify not being in communion.

I’m in Christ. That’s all I maintain… is that in communion?

Not necessarily.

So a ‘‘sin unto death’’ removes this life? or is it our awareness of it? How do the '‘sin unto death’'ers get raised for the Last Judgment?

In your case, no, because you already know too much.

You cannot qualify as being invincibly ignorant.

So knowledge is what saves or damns me?

Yes. We know for the same reason you know that His Words are Spirit and Life. We know because of who He is. He said, “let there be light” and there was light etc. We trust the nature of who He is.

I agree. The reason is Jesus. That’s how I know. The Holy Spirit came and convicted me of righteousness (the ONLY righteousness, i.e. Christ) and sin. We are all sinners. We all must die. But convinced by the Spirit of Christ, and testifying to me of Him, He showed me the Gift. eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Yes.

How does one know that it is not the water Jesus talks about in Chapter 4?

I think Jesus’ disciples were as freaked out as the rest of the Jews.

While I agree with your point, I think it is possible that GIL is in an irregular situation of some kind that prevents presenting herself for the eucharist.

Yes, His words are life, and His words command that we eat and drink to have His life in us. There is no “this…AND NOT that”.

I agree with you, but I would not say it is “the other hand”, but the SAME hand. We are to BOTH receive his words, and enact his word.

I agree. But can I enact all portions of His Word in my own capacity? Such as ‘‘do this’’ in remembrance of me?

 

[jerome_ky]

So why can I not transubstantiate through the Spirit of Christ in me?

I like the Catholic Church because it has answers. The thing about an answer is you have to accept it. Only an ordained priest can consecrate the host. I don’t believe we would say he does the actual transubstantiation, that is Christ doing that. Your many questions are keeping you at the door, not letting you in. Christ on the altar is the Kingdom. That’s only available in His Church. Don’t be left outside the ark. I would challenge you to turn off your computer and go to an Adoration Chapel at a nearby Catholic church and pray before the Blessed Sacrament. (Okay, first do a search for Perpetual Adoration and your town and find an Adoration Chapel and then turn off your computer.) Ask Him to reveal Himself. He did to me.

Adoro Te Devote

Godhead here in hiding, whom I do adore,
Masked by these bare shadows, shape and nothing more,
See, Lord, at thy service low lies here a heart
Lost, all lost in wonder at the God thou art.

Seeing, touching, tasting are in thee deceived:
How says trusty hearing? that shall be believed;
What God’s Son has told me, take for truth I do;
Truth himself speaks truly or there’s nothing true.

On the cross thy godhead made no sign to men,
Here thy very manhood steals from human ken:
Both are my confession, both are my belief,
And I pray the prayer of the dying thief.

I am not like Thomas, wounds I cannot see,
But can plainly call thee Lord and God as he;
Let me to a deeper faith daily nearer move,
Daily make me harder hope and dearer love.

O thou our reminder of Christ crucified,
Living Bread, the life of us for whom he died,
Lend this life to me then: feed and feast my mind,
There be thou the sweetness man was meant to find.

Bring the tender tale true of the Pelican;
Bathe me, Jesu Lord, in what thy bosom ran—
Blood whereof a single drop has power to win
All the world forgiveness of its world of sin.

Jesu, whom I look at shrouded here below,
I beseech thee send me what I thirst for so,
Some day to gaze on thee face to face in light
And be blest for ever with thy glory’s sight.
Amen.