What language do you want a mass to be told?

[otjm]

I prefer the Traditional Latin Mass, sometimes known as the Tridentine Mass. Let us remember that whether EF or OF, the mass must be in Latin! Not many folks are aware of this, but in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church all masses must be in Latin. The reason you have Novus Ordo Masses in English, is by an indult, or permission from Rome. That indult may be removed at any time, and if it is removed anywhere, forn any reason, then mass must be said in Latin.

the likelyhood of that occuring is approximately the same as the likelyhood of Vatican 2 documents being repealed. It should be noted that the documents called for the use of the vernacular.

 

[choy]

Because you know what the Our Father says, assuming you pray in the vernacular a decent translation of it! Granted, romance languages (e.g. French, Spanish, Italian) have an advantage over non-romance languages, since they are derived from Latin.

People don’t need to “learn Latin”. They only need to learn some simple Latin phrases. Et cum spiritu tuo. Deo gratis. Laus tibi Christe. They already know what these phrases mean.

And if people have a Latin-vernacular personal missal, even better.

i totally disagree

and first i have to ask for those who agrue for Latin, how many of you can actually speak a second language fluently?

if i recite the Our Father in another language i don’t understand and just memorize the words to the other language, then its just a recital. there’s no feelings to it, no understanding, just words. its just me reciting words i don’t understand at all

prayer is more than just uttering words. it should be heartfelt, our mind, body and soul must be into what we are communicating to God

 

[gospel_life]

Okay, okay, you need not be so defensive about it.

Seriously?? That’s your thoughts on the matter?

Day after day we get people coming in here denigrating faithful Catholics in all manner of ways, making judgments of being lazy and irreverent to rejecting the Church, labeling them as modernists if not outright heretics simply because we don’t idolize the externals-based “small t” traditions that others prefer. I guess you’re right though that there’s nothing to get defensive about.

Woe to you Pharisees. You judge the cup without examining the contents.
Woe to you Pharisees. You lay heavy burdens on people but don’t lay a finger to help lift them.
Woe to you Pharisees. You make tradiitons of man out to be Traditions of God.

I wouldn’t begin to tar all traditionalists with that brush as I know far too many who quietly go about their business in prayer and devotion without feeling a need to lord it over anyone else or demand that anyone else share their preference. Who participate in the traditions they observe because of the value they find in them while understanding that others might feel their call in other devotions. There is unfortunately a vocal and very unattractive minority who are their own worst enemies in promoting the many virtues of the TLM and from whom people flee. They were around when Jesus walked the earth and I unfortunately don’t see any reason to expect they won’t be here until he comes again so I’m not surprised that we too should have to deal with the judgments that some are willing to lay on their brothers and sisters.

It sure is hard though to reconcile that kind of attitude with the gospel.

 

[japhy]

and first i have to ask for those who agrue for Latin, how many of you can actually speak a second language fluently?

I studied French for six years, but I don’t use the language regularly, so I can’t say I can speak it fluently. I can read it pretty well, but I would be slow to formulate sentences in it. May I ask what significance this has for the thread? Praying in Latin at the Mass does not require us to speak extemporaneously in Latin – it involves us praying specific, determined phrases.

if i recite the Our Father in another language i don’t understand and just memorize the words to the other language, then its just a recital. there’s no feelings to it, no understanding, just words. its just me reciting words i don’t understand at all.

It might start as “just a recital”, but it can become more than that. The prayers you learning in the vernacular growing up were, at first, recitations, until you grew mature enough to understand them.

prayer is more than just uttering words. it should be heartfelt, our mind, body and soul must be into what we are communicating to God

Several centuries of Catholics – including the vast majority of the Roman Rite’s canonized saints, were ably to pray “mind, body and soul” despite a Mass celebrated in Latin. And just because a prayer may be in your vernacular, that does not mean it is automatically “more than just uttering words” or “heartfelt” when you pray it. Latin or vernacular, you need to know what you’re praying!

 

[choy]

I studied French for six years, but I don’t use the language regularly, so I can’t say I can speak it fluently. I can read it pretty well, but I would be slow to formulate sentences in it. May I ask what significance this has for the thread? Praying in Latin at the Mass does not require us to speak extemporaneously in Latin – it involves us praying specific, determined phrases.

It might start as “just a recital”, but it can become more than that. The prayers you learning in the vernacular growing up were, at first, recitations, until you grew mature enough to understand them.

Several centuries of Catholics – including the vast majority of the Roman Rite’s canonized saints, were ably to pray “mind, body and soul” despite a Mass celebrated in Latin. And just because a prayer may be in your vernacular, that does not mean it is automatically “more than just uttering words” or “heartfelt” when you pray it. Latin or vernacular, you need to know what you’re praying!

well, those several centuries of Catholics spoke latin to some degree

i’m talking about today where Latin outside the Church is basically a dead language, save for some words

anyway, to each his own. i’d appreciate some Latin in masses, but when i participate, i want to be able to participate fully using language i can undertsand deeply

 

[Lycorth]

Have you actually ever been to a Protestant service? And do you have any history at all? That urban myth just keeps going round and round.

Yes, I’ve been to many Protestant services, mostly Lutheran ones. So from firsthand experience I can tell that, compared to the unambiguously Catholic nature of the TLM, the OF is much closer to a Protestant service than the TLM was, much closer.

The only urban myth is that the OF Mass has no Protestant-like nature and is exactly the same as the TLM or any other Catholic Mass of the Church’s history.

 

[FrCorey]

someone once asked me to do a mass in hebrew.
and I heard someone in the back say, oy gevalt!
hmm, catholics for jesus.

 

[Lycorth]

Which totally misses the point. The Mass only came to be said in Latin at all because it was the vernacular of its time and people wanted Mass in their own language. If it had not been for that we would likely still have it in Greek as the Church would have had no other reason to change to Latin.

Latin was not the vernacular of Medieval Europe. My argument stands.

Your continued insistence on your omniscience and ability to read people’s motivations to be laziness are truly astounding. “Thank you God for not making me lazy like those other miserable people who call themselves Catholic.”

I am not making assumptions, nor have I made a pompous show of my own virtues. I have never claimed any such thing. Deal with the fact I disagree with you in an adult manner, if you can.

It begins to sound like the older brother from the prodigal son story who just can’t abide the idea of the Father wasting His love on those who aren’t as “righteous” and “pure” as they are. An awful lot of scripture parallels condemning such positions from Peter to James to John to Paul to Jesus himself.

There’s an awful lot of us who love God and love the Church and aren’t the least bit “lazy”. We just don’t prefer to pray in Latin. We’re not sitting around judging why you want to; it would be nice if you could consider the possibility that just maybe our prayer is just as real and devoted as your and that maybe working together instead of sniping at each other over such petty things is what we’re called to.

When did I claim that vernacular prayer isn’t valid or as devout as Latin prayer? Prove where I made such a claim or admit you are lying about me. I pray in the vernacular as well and attend OF Masses, as my church does not offer EF Masses. Now who is claiming omniscience?

Refusing to learn is laziness, like it or not. I’m sorry if you feel that is a personal insult.

 

[otjm]

Yes, I’ve been to many Protestant services, mostly Lutheran ones. So from firsthand experience I can tell that, compared to the unambiguously Catholic nature of the TLM, the OF is much closer to a Protestant service than the TLM was, much closer.

The only urban myth is that the OF Mass has no Protestant-like nature and is exactly the same as the TLM or any other Catholic Mass of the Church’s history.

OK, so you missed the question. The question essentially is - who copied who? I would submit that the “high church” Protestants copied us, which does not make the OF “protestantized”.

 

[malphono]

someone once asked me to do a mass in hebrew.
and I heard someone in the back say, oy gevalt!
hmm, catholics for jesus.

Sounds like whoever it was should have asked for Yiddish.

 

[greenpatrick125]

Native tounge is definetly best.

 

[Lycorth]

OK, so you missed the question. The question essentially is - who copied who? I would submit that the “high church” Protestants copied us, which does not make the OF “protestantized”.

Certainly the Protestants copied us, but the OF did not exist when Luther’s heresy began nor when offshoots began to invent their own versions of the Mass. The TLM-type was the norm.

The OF only came about in the 1960s, well after Protestantism was deeply entrenched in society, and after the Second Vatican Council with its large contingent of Protestant observers. The OF reflects the basic humanist-Protestant impetus behind the quasi-iconoclasm and watering-down of the Faith that followed the council.

The OF is still a Catholic Mass, but it simply veers closer to a Protestant-style service than any of its liturgical predecessors.

 

[Cat]

latinlatinlatin!!!

Latin masses attract much more people, so the problem of reduced mass attendances would be solved

Where did you get this “fact?” Can you cite a source? Is this the way it is where you live?

I live in a city where the Latin Mass (through ICK) has been available, along with all the OF Masses, since the mid-1980s. It’s offered in a convenient location, in the Oratory (beautiful interior).

Maybe our city is an exception, but the Latin Mass does not attract more people than the many OF Masses. Our OF Masses are crowded, and our Life Teen Mass is packed on Sunday nights, while only a few hundred show up for Latin Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

I live in a city where the Latin Mass (through ICK) has been available, along with all the OF Masses, since the mid-1980s. It’s offered in a convenient location, in the Oratory (beautiful interior).

I think they would prefer the ICRSS acronym. And if you’re referring to St. Mary’s in Rockford, yes, that is beautiful place for Mass. And it was packed last time I attended Mass there.

 

[Elizium23]

I prefer the Traditional Latin Mass, sometimes known as the Tridentine Mass. Let us remember that whether EF or OF, the mass must be in Latin! Not many folks are aware of this, but in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church all masses must be in Latin. The reason you have Novus Ordo Masses in English, is by an indult, or permission from Rome. That indult may be removed at any time, and if it is removed anywhere, forn any reason, then mass must be said in Latin.

I’m sorry, but I do not believe you. Please cite church documents which state that the vernacular is by a revocable indult.

 

[Jehoshua]

The statement about latin and other venerable languages sums up my view on the issue nicely.

 

[Cat]

I think they would prefer the ICRSS acronym. And if you’re referring to St. Mary’s in Rockford, yes, that is beautiful place for Mass. And it was packed last time I attended Mass there.

Well, that’s good to know. It has its following, plus a lot of visitors. But it most certainly does not attract more people than the OF Masses at the other parishes in Rockford. The city is small enough and the Oratory is centrally-located and the downtown is deserted enough on Sunday (no traffic snarls) so it’s easy for people to get to if they wish. Most don’t wish to.

Actually, if you want to attend the most crowded church services in Rockford, go to Heartland. Over 10,000 (almost a tenth of the city’s population) people, including ex-Catholics, attend one of the Heartland services every weekend. And it’s also in the middle of the city.

 

[ProVobis]

Actually, if you want to attend the most crowded church services in Rockford, go to Heartland.

No thanks. I have this one principle: If it’s crowded, they don’t need me. I’ll go where they need help. Besides, Rockford is about an hour and a half drive from me but I know something about it as my parents used to live there.

 

[malphono]

No thanks. I have this one principle: If it’s crowded, they don’t need me. I’ll go where they need help. Besides, Rockford is about an hour and a half drive from me but I know something about it as my parents used to live there.

Even if it were next door, I suspect you’d be feeling just a bit out of place there: it’s some sort of evangelical mega-church. Not my style either.

 

[ProVobis]

Even if it were next door, I suspect you’d be feeling just a bit out of place there: it’s some sort of evangelical mega-church. Not my style either.

So noted.

I live near a mosque so I know all there is to know about big crowds and lots of traffic in one area. Wrigley Field has a lot of breathing space in comparison.