What level of responsibility do you feel for the negative impacts of anthropogenic climate change?

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With all due respect, I do not agree with the general proposition that it’s better to save paper than it is to cultivate trees. Paper is often made of the worst trees imaginable, plus mature trees. If you want to sequester carbon, then you would support those who harvest junk or mature trees. The big “carbon eaters” are the “adolescent trees”, the ones measuring about 15" in diameter at approximately 15" above the ground, solid, well-leafed, straight, unbroken, with their tops in the canopy. They’ll sequester more carbon in 10 years than a fully mature tree will sequester in 100 years. Best to cut the junk around them. The second-rate trees and old trees will fall eventually and rot on the ground, releasing carbon. Might as well make paper or building materials or furniture out of them.

I’m talking about hardwoods here. Someone with more experience with pines can tell you about those.
This is good information. It’s also true that older, mature trees do not cut themselves down. Humans do, and humans plant younger trees, thereby reinvigorating the forest. I have some relatives who spent several months each year earning money by planting trees in national forests, replacing older trees. I guess that cutting down older trees and planting younger saplings could also be considered good environmental policy.
 
This is good information. It’s also true that older, mature trees do not cut themselves down. Humans do, and humans plant younger trees, thereby reinvigorating the forest. I have some relatives who spent several months each year earning money by planting trees in national forests, replacing older trees. I guess that cutting down older trees and planting younger saplings could also be considered good environmental policy.
It may be passingly interesting to note that Indians used to burn the landscape regularly, both in forests and on prairies. It removed old, dead growth that harbors insects and disease, and gave advantage to young grasses and trees over less desirable woody plants.

Of course, in doing so, they let a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere, but since they did it regularly, it was less than the kind of thing that happens when wildfires go completly out of control in the American West today due to the accumulation of plant detritus.

Their real purpose, though, was to increase the forage for game animals.
 
As a member of humanity, I take responsibility by doing what I can with recycling, my diet (vegan) and using energy in a conservative manner as best I can. To ignore this situation, is IMHO, to ignore the obvious. I don’t feel “guilty” about it, but I do believe I must do something in my sphere to mitigate the negative effects of what is happening.
I also don’t feel “guilty” about it anymore, tho I did briefly when I really came to grips that it was my responsibility too, not just the vague “they” to deal with this problem of AGW. As soon as I started down the path of doing what I could, I got over that guilt feeling and felt empowered and joyous, even tho there is much more I could do and plan & hope to do.

It’s like a birth…it only hurts for a brief moment between the time when one doesn’t realize the issue is real and that we all have responsibility to solve it (as JPII told us back in 1990), then coming to grips with it (which I think is a tiny bit guilt-painful), then starting down a path to doing something about it. That’s probably the blockage for so many people – this fear of birth pains into accepting the problem and their responsibility.

I do, however feel sorrow for the harms that are coming to people from AGW, now on a small scale affecting only a small portion of the world’s population, but eventually harms that will become more and more serious and impact nearly everyone, if we fail to mitigate.

And there is another “guilt” or responsibility beyond doing what I can in my daily life to reduce my GHG emissions, which I became aware of several years ago during Mass.

I had become so demoralized by the recalcitrance and intransigence of the denialists – not only denying AGW, but also refusing to do those things that would save them money AND mitigate AGW, that I decided to give up trying to persuade people to do the right thing. How long can a person keep banging their head against a brick wall? It had been at it for 2 decades.

I don’t have children and I’m in my mid-60s now, so I don’t have as much a personal stake in the harms to come as others have, tho it is going to be really too bad for my nieces and nephews and their children (most of whom really don’t pay attention to what I say anyway), and for all the children of the world. But I had decided there was really no use in my trying to tell people about this problem and great solutions – it was just falling on deaf ears.

Then at Mass that very same week (I think it was in August, maybe 2009 or 2010), the reading came up about how if your brother is doing something wrong and you fail to telling him, then that sin falls back on you (I don’t remember the book or verse number).

So back to banging my head against the brick wall, which seems to be getting ever tougher and more intransigent. I feel like Cassandra. I have learned to live in my sorrow and failure and offer it up to God (holding in my heart Our Lady of the 7 Dolors), and find joy in doing God’s will and in continually finding ways to reduce our own GHG emissions at least (and other pollution) …even if it involves continual failure in this 2nd duty of informing others.
 
With all due respect, I do not agree with the general proposition that it’s better to save paper than it is to cultivate trees. Paper is often made of the worst trees imaginable, plus mature trees. If you want to sequester carbon, then you would support those who harvest junk or mature trees. The big “carbon eaters” are the “adolescent trees”, the ones measuring about 15" in diameter at approximately 15" above the ground, solid, well-leafed, straight, unbroken, with their tops in the canopy. They’ll sequester more carbon in 10 years than a fully mature tree will sequester in 100 years. Best to cut the junk around them. The second-rate trees and old trees will fall eventually and rot on the ground, releasing carbon. Might as well make paper or building materials or furniture out of them.

I’m talking about hardwoods here. Someone with more experience with pines can tell you about those.
Why can’t we do both – save paper (by using the blank sides), getting our bills online, using recycled paper, etc, AND plant new trees. We’ve pretty much turned the Eastern Woodlands – which stretched from the east coast of America to the Mississippi into farmland and prairie – within a couple hundred years. Why not plant trees where we can, reclaim some of that vast woodlands area, without harming agriculture tho.

BTW, they don’t use hardwood for paper. But here is something interesting. I saw this program some 20 years ago about mule-logging in private hardwood forests. It seems big machine logging does a lot of harm to the young trees and saplings, pretty much destroying the forest. The program showed how some landowners contracted with mule-logging outfits. They go in, cut down some mature trees with chainsaws, then chain them up to a mule, that drags them out to the open area near the road, where they use mule power to help load them onto their big trucks. It doesn’t seem as quick or efficient, but the young trees and saplings are virtually unharmed and then can grow into mature trees, to in the en and long-run it is a more efficient, less harmful way to do logging (but probably only for hardwood trees, which bring a much better price).

The reason I taped that program is I found it to be part of the AGW mitigation strategy – don’t destroy forests (which are carbon sinks), get what we need from them – what we really need, after all efforts at efficiency/conservation, reducing, reusing, recycling – and do it in a way that uses less fossil fuel energy.
 
Reading through this thread has been an amazing experience. I want to thank all the people who posted such good ideas and eye-opening insights. For example, I had not considered the effects of deforestation in particular with regard to climate change. Of course, forests do not cut themselves down, so this is just another example of how human activity is responsible for the build-up of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.
**
It saddens me that that 34 of the 52 people who voted in the poll steadfastly refuse to take the issue seriously. **This is clearly NOT a religious, but a political perspective - all it provides is an illustration of the prevailing political ideology of the people who post on this forum.

It certainly does not reflect the views of our Church leaders. A simple search of the Vatican website results in 93 hits for the phrase “climate change” - in quotes. All of which emphasis the reality of the problem, the devastating impact it has on human life, and the need for a genuine world-wide response in order to mitigate its effects on the poor in particular. This is where our Church leaders stand on the issue. It is sad that as Catholics we do not all stand with them.

I’m going to spend some time now reading through those 93 documents posted on the Vatican website. I hope my fellow Catholics who respect our Church leaders will do the same. As faithful Catholics, we should at the very least show our religious leaders the same level of respect shown to politicians and right-wing bloggers and READ and RESPOND to what THEY have to say.

Of course, in doing so, I hope the climate change deniers will avoid their usual mocking tone.
It doesn’t sadden me. It angers me. The reason being, it’s the NON-human inhabitants of this earth who end up suffering the most as a result of human selfishness.

It also very much makes me question if CAF is a place where I want to spend any more time. Perhaps NOT coming to this forum, thereby spending less time on my tablet, is another good way to reduce my carbon footprint 👍
 
The biggest problem with today’s environmental movement is that, at the popular level, anyways, they lack the recognition that success in endeavors requires more than good intentions. This drive people like me nuts (previously cited example: Al Gore pretending that buying “offsets” makes it OK to use vast energy and resources to maintain his luxurious posessions).

The fact is that facts matter more than feelings. Do we have to be good stewards of Creation? Absolutely! Unfortunately, this requires rather more than the correct bumper sticker and some token gestures like recycling, buying a ‘green’ car, or taking a government subsidy to help pay for your rooftop solar panels.

Sadly, the public debate (and research funding process) today is so emotionally charged that I have little faith in objective outcomes anymore. This is because of a fundamental change that happened in the 1960’s when the “Conservation Movement” morphed into the “Environmental Movement.” The former philosophy focused on providing long term care for the natural systems that sustain and enhance human life. The latter is more often focused on the myth of pre-human natural harmony and balance that views the presence of man as an alien and foreign presence that brings only destruction to the otherwise splendor of nature. These folks now control the lobbying and activist groups and catholics shouldn’t trust them any more than we trust poisonous snakes. To be sure, snakes play an important role in an ecosystem, but that doesn’t make them YOUR friend!

Lynne, I admire you willingness to make personal scarifices for the sake of your fellow man, but I do hope you keep your eyes wide open and filters up to catch the twisted messages that are often dissolved in some of the innocent ones. My abilities to explain things of such complexity are not up to snuff, but I highly recommend you read “In a Dark Wood” by Alston Chase for a better explanation than I can give. He’s a philosopher who became an environmental activist and at one point in his career suddenly recognized the philosophical shift I described above. A truly excellent and eye-opening read.
 
It doesn’t sadden me. It angers me. The reason being, it’s the NON-human inhabitants of this earth who end up suffering the most as a result of human selfishness.

It also very much makes me question if CAF is a place where I want to spend any more time. Perhaps NOT coming to this forum, thereby spending less time on my tablet, is another good way to reduce my carbon footprint 👍
And then the only voices left will be theirs…

Perhaps this is their intention. :hmmm:

I hope you’ll reconsider, because we are Catholic too.👍
 
It doesn’t sadden me. It angers me. The reason being, it’s the NON-human inhabitants of this earth who end up suffering the most as a result of human selfishness.
I know what you mean. The animals are unaware and innocent (even if some ferocious ones kill and eat people). The Church tells us that animals can’t go to heaven. But the other side of that coin is they can’t go to hell, either…like us hell-prone humans.

But just as soon as I start looking at us wicked hell-prone people, I realize that some people are contributing very very less to AGW (the very poor), while others are contributing a whole lot. Now, to be frank, those poor people if given a chance (e.g., made rich), would probably be as much a part of the problem as the rich are. Nevertheless there is a huge social injustice issue, with the rich benefitting well from the fruits of industrialized society and the poor and future generations being grossly harmed, not only by AGW, but many other down-sides of our industrialized, global economy.

So my heart goes out to them…and also to the animals who are inculpable of the harms and disasters that befall them.
It also very much makes me question if CAF is a place where I want to spend any more time. Perhaps NOT coming to this forum, thereby spending less time on my tablet, is another good way to reduce my carbon footprint 👍
Don’t leave us. Then we won’t hear voices from “truth and charity.”

If it helps any, the poll stats here do NOT reflect the general Catholic population in America, which accepts and is more concerned about AGW than non-Catholics (68% to 62%). There is something great and grand in the Catholic Church that continues to pull us past narrow interests, selfishness, wrong ideologies, and fears of our secular world view being found wanting into God’s Truth and Light.
 
Why can’t we do both – save paper (by using the blank sides), getting our bills online, using recycled paper, etc, AND plant new trees. We’ve pretty much turned the Eastern Woodlands – which stretched from the east coast of America to the Mississippi into farmland and prairie – within a couple hundred years. Why not plant trees where we can, reclaim some of that vast woodlands area, without harming agriculture tho.

BTW, they don’t use hardwood for paper. But here is something interesting. I saw this program some 20 years ago about mule-logging in private hardwood forests. It seems big machine logging does a lot of harm to the young trees and saplings, pretty much destroying the forest. The program showed how some landowners contracted with mule-logging outfits. They go in, cut down some mature trees with chainsaws, then chain them up to a mule, that drags them out to the open area near the road, where they use mule power to help load them onto their big trucks. It doesn’t seem as quick or efficient, but the young trees and saplings are virtually unharmed and then can grow into mature trees, to in the en and long-run it is a more efficient, less harmful way to do logging (but probably only for hardwood trees, which bring a much better price).

The reason I taped that program is I found it to be part of the AGW mitigation strategy – don’t destroy forests (which are carbon sinks), get what we need from them – what we really need, after all efforts at efficiency/conservation, reducing, reusing, recycling – and do it in a way that uses less fossil fuel energy.
Actually, hardwood is used in making paper. ehow.com/list_6631895_species-trees-used-make-paper_.html

It’s interesting that in pre-Columbian U.S., much of what we think of as “endless primeval forests” were actually “orchards”. Indians thinned trees, eliminated some, and planted varieties (particularly nut producers) that were useful to them. There were huge areas of cleared land in the eastern U.S. before the first white settlers. In Georgia, for instance, the American Chestnut was far and away the most common tree until disease essentially wiped them out. The otherwise curious presence of fruiting trees (many from elsewhere) in the Amazon Basin have led to the conclusion by some that the area was “garden-like” before European diseases wiped out most of the tending populations there.

I was amused to read, not too long ago, that “native pecans” in my own Ozark region, which the Forest Service prized and tended carefully, were actually brought here by Indians from Texas by way of Oklahoma long ago.

But that’s not to say no attention should be given to interspersing agriculture with silvoculture today, and in my opinion it deserves a great deal more attention than it is commonly given. It may be observed, however, that there is an increasing recommendation of it on the part of university agriculture departments.

It has been my observation that most farmers and ranchers do care about the enrivonments in which they operate. After all, they are obliged to live in them too.

However, there is almost zero encouragement of it in any economic way, let alone as a public policy issue. Improvements like silvoculture (or “mob grazing” in paddocks for that matter) are costly to farmers and do not promise immediate return in the same way crops do. If the creation of massive “heat sinks” through desertification is threatening to the environment (and it may be greatly more so than CO2 emissions) and human life, then perhaps governments would be wiser not to worry about things like CAFE standards that would have almost no impact on emissions or “money for pollution swaps” like “cap and trade”, but to encourage practices that would actually have a favorable impact on the environment as well as on the totality of resources available for human use.

An interesting thing about the environment is that, while there have been massive environmental improvements in the U.S. in the last decades (including in emissions, which have been essentially flat for a long time) it is not realistic to ask the rest of the world to, e.g., curb carbon emissions when the price of doing so is a reduction in their economic prospects. If one looks at China, for instance, a horribly polluted environment is a price they are obviously willing to pay for better living standards. We can say all we want about emissions, but they pay absolutely no attention, and won’t.

On the other hand, some things actually might be adopted by others if we are able to demonstrate that they produce tangible benefits. Desertification is, for example, a terrible problem in China, and it’s getting worse. But China can’t point to economic benefits from desertification. If we have any expectation of influencing others in the world to adopt more environmentally friendly policies, we have to demonstrate that they’re economically beneficial here. We could do that, but we don’t. Instead, our policymakers insist on policies that adversely impact the economies of individuals and the country as a whole, and vainly expect that somehow others on this planet will follow suit.
 
Here something – an article in the recent SCIENCE re how a gallon of gasoline today has a much higher ecological footprint than decades ago (bec we’re going after more and more difficult sources). Another way to look at it is if one is able to offset burning a gallon of gasoline (by hypermiling, etc), that would have a much greater reduction in harm:

Science 15 March 2013: Vol. 339 no. 6125 pp. 1286-1287
DOI: 10.1126/science.1234205

“Not All About Consumption”

1.Debra J. Davidson,
2.Jeffrey Andrews

ABSTRACT: The average barrel of oil on the market today has a larger ecological footprint than did the average barrel in 1950, and the average barrel in 2050 will have a larger ecological footprint than that of today. This tendency is most obvious in the increasing energy (name removed by moderator)uts required for production (1); production of all fossil fuels has an ecological impact, and increases in energy (name removed by moderator)uts thus translate into increased environmental impact. But exploiting less-accessible resources also requires more (name removed by moderator)uts, like diluents, water, and land, and produces more waste. Furthermore, once resources near population centers are depleted, more geographically remote reserves are accessed, increasing the ecological costs of transport. The implication is simple: Even if consumption is held constant, ecological impact can increase—not only for energy but also for other resources.
 
Here something – an article in the recent SCIENCE re how a gallon of gasoline today has a much higher ecological footprint than decades ago (bec we’re going after more and more difficult sources). Another way to look at it is if one is able to offset burning a gallon of gasoline (by hypermiling, etc), that would have a much greater reduction in harm:

Science 15 March 2013: Vol. 339 no. 6125 pp. 1286-1287
DOI: 10.1126/science.1234205

“Not All About Consumption”

1.Debra J. Davidson,
2.Jeffrey Andrews

ABSTRACT: The average barrel of oil on the market today has a larger ecological footprint than did the average barrel in 1950, and the average barrel in 2050 will have a larger ecological footprint than that of today. This tendency is most obvious in the increasing energy (name removed by moderator)uts required for production (1); production of all fossil fuels has an ecological impact, and increases in energy (name removed by moderator)uts thus translate into increased environmental impact. But exploiting less-accessible resources also requires more (name removed by moderator)uts, like diluents, water, and land, and produces more waste. Furthermore, once resources near population centers are depleted, more geographically remote reserves are accessed, increasing the ecological costs of transport. The implication is simple: Even if consumption is held constant, ecological impact can increase—not only for energy but also for other resources.
It would be interesting to see if this fellow has real objective facts to back him up, or whether this is just how he sees things.

Back in the 1920s when virtually none of the big pipelines in place now existed, fuel was hauled by trucks to population centers. In fact, sometimes fuel sources created population centers precisely because fuel was readily available by truck or train. Before Standard Oil of Ohio, Cleveland was just a small town. Standard Oil made a city out of it.

It is difficult for me to believe the environmental hazards of hauling millions of gallons of fuel by truck for short distances were less than sending it for greater distances through a pipeline.

And frankly, I totally doubt the petroleum pollution was less in the 1950s than it is today. In those days, spills and sumps were essentially ignored. That’s hardly the case today. If one looks around in almost any city (if one know what one is looking for) one will see the remnants of establishments on now-unused ground that was hopelessly polluted by petroleum distillates back in the 1940s and 1950s. That’s why commercial builders always have environmental studies done on development land. They don’t want to inadvertently buy one of those places and get charged millions by the EPA as soon as they take title.

But it’s no news that oil now costs more to recover than it did when it poured out of the ground on its own in Pennsylvania years ago, or than it would off the coast of California today, where untapped oil constantly seeps to the surface of the ocean. Maybe that’s a better argument for tapping the coastal resources than it is to curtail development of the Bakken Formation.
 
Actually, hardwood is used in making paper. ehow.com/list_6631895_species-trees-used-make-paper_.html

It’s interesting that in pre-Columbian U.S., much of what we think of as “endless primeval forests” were actually “orchards”. Indians thinned trees, eliminated some, and planted varieties (particularly nut producers) that were useful to them. There were huge areas of cleared land in the eastern U.S. before the first white settlers. In Georgia, for instance, the American Chestnut was far and away the most common tree until disease essentially wiped them out. The otherwise curious presence of fruiting trees (many from elsewhere) in the Amazon Basin have led to the conclusion by some that the area was “garden-like” before European diseases wiped out most of the tending populations there.

I was amused to read, not too long ago, that “native pecans” in my own Ozark region, which the Forest Service prized and tended carefully, were actually brought here by Indians from Texas by way of Oklahoma long ago.
Changes in the Land: Indians, Colonists, and the Ecology of New England by William Cronon is at great book that examines the impact of Native American vs. English land use based on their different ideological views. You might find it interesting.
But that’s not to say no attention should be given to interspersing agriculture with silvoculture today, and in my opinion it deserves a great deal more attention than it is commonly given. It may be observed, however, that there is an increasing recommendation of it on the part of university agriculture departments.

It has been my observation that most farmers and ranchers do care about the enrivonments in which they operate. After all, they are obliged to live in them too.
Watching Ken Burns The Dust Bowl - made me realize how vital it was to get local land owners to support rather draconian laws regulating farming techniques that would preserve the topsoil.

Also, many conservationists are people who love to hunt and fish. Which makes sense. Being pro-environment doesn’t mean you are some new age hippie.
However, there is almost zero encouragement of it in any economic way, let alone as a public policy issue. Improvements like silvoculture (or “mob grazing” in paddocks for that matter) are costly to farmers and do not promise immediate return in the same way crops do. If the creation of massive “heat sinks” through desertification is threatening to the environment (and it may be greatly more so than CO2 emissions) and human life, then perhaps governments would be wiser not to worry about things like CAFE standards that would have almost no impact on emissions or “money for pollution swaps” like “cap and trade”, but to encourage practices that would actually have a favorable impact on the environment as well as on the totality of resources available for human use.
CAFE standards are good for many reasons. Not only do they reduce emission, but they encourage the design of more fuel efficient cars. This reduces the demand for fossil fuels and makes people less vulnerable to price fluctuations in the market.
An interesting thing about the environment is that, while there have been massive environmental improvements in the U.S. in the last decades (including in emissions, which have been essentially flat for a long time) it is not realistic to ask the rest of the world to, e.g., curb carbon emissions when the price of doing so is a reduction in their economic prospects. If one looks at China, for instance, a horribly polluted environment is a price they are obviously willing to pay for better living standards. We can say all we want about emissions, but they pay absolutely no attention, and won’t.

On the other hand, some things actually might be adopted by others if we are able to demonstrate that they produce tangible benefits. Desertification is, for example, a terrible problem in China, and it’s getting worse. But China can’t point to economic benefits from desertification. If we have any expectation of influencing others in the world to adopt more environmentally friendly policies, we have to demonstrate that they’re economically beneficial here. We could do that, but we don’t. Instead, our policymakers insist on policies that adversely impact the economies of individuals and the country as a whole, and vainly expect that somehow others on this planet will follow suit.
Hasn’t China taken the lead in research on renewable energy? Most of the world isn’t the problem - it is climate change deniers in the US that is the problem.

As you have said before, as soon as the technology makes alternatives more economical, people will change their behavior. However, unless we start investing in research, the US will be importing rather than exporting the new technology.
 
Changes in the Land: Indians, Colonists, and the Ecology of New England by William Cronon is at great book that examines the impact of Native American vs. English land use based on their different ideological views. You might find it interesting.

Watching Ken Burns The Dust Bowl - made me realize how vital it was to get local land owners to support rather draconian laws regulating farming techniques that would preserve the topsoil.

Also, many conservationists are people who love to hunt and fish. Which makes sense. Being pro-environment doesn’t mean you are some new age hippie.

CAFE standards are good for many reasons. Not only do they reduce emission, but they encourage the design of more fuel efficient cars. This reduces the demand for fossil fuels and makes people less vulnerable to price fluctuations in the market.

Hasn’t China taken the lead in research on renewable energy? Most of the world isn’t the problem - it is climate change deniers in the US that is the problem.

As you have said before, as soon as the technology makes alternatives more economical, people will change their behavior. However, unless we start investing in research, the US will be importing rather than exporting the new technology.
Thank you for the references.

China might well be the foremost manufacturer of solar equipment…to sell here. But China adds a new coal-fired plant every ten days and is the world’s greatest single polluter of virtually every kind.

If the U.S. stopped all emissions tomorrow, it would curtail about 17% of the world’s total, but it would be quickly made up by the fact that India and China alone increase theirs by about 10% annually. Insulting those who are less impressed than some by MMGW by calling us “deniers” will do nothing to change the minds of people like myself and certainly will have no effect on India or China.

The new CAFE standards will, if adhered to, reduce the TOTAL predicted accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere between now and 2040 by approximately 1/12 of the production for that year. That’s it.

The MMGW movement is, I am afraid, out of good new ideas. Perhaps the worst misconception it has is that it has any real likelihood of influencing the practices of other societies (and thus their emissions output) who are determined to improve their living standards at any cost. If, indeed, they see misguided U.S. policies drive industry away or reduce the living standards of Americans, they will be even less impressed than they are now.

New ideas are needed; ideas that hold some promise of improved, not straitened, lives among those who adopt them.

And therefore, in direct response to the title question, we in this country should all feel responsibility precisely because our political elites (whom we elected) are advocating policies that hold little promise for reducing emissions, but which are really nothing more than punishments for our own peoples’ standard of living, and which give the rest of the world a terrible example.
 
I haven’t read through the whole thread, but it looks like it’s been a good discussion.

One of the ways I take responsibility for action on climate change is with my voting intentions. Of our two major parties in Australia one is taking action on, with a “carbon tax”, and the other opposes it. This is an important factor for my vote. Unfortunately (for the climate change vote) there are other issues they differ on which are more fundamental for the Catholic vote, but nevertheless this is an important factor for my vote. When there is an opportunity to raise it with my politicians (eg. surveys, door knocking), I do raise it. In general, I try to support the carbon tax whenever there is an opportunity, such as in discussions with friends, and by accepting the changes that this imposes on electricity bills, etc. My first-hand impression is that the carbon tax has mostly been accepted in Australia, as we are conscious of the need for action.

I strongly agree with the principle that we must be taking action now to protect the climate which we will be imposing on our children and grandchildren (and God’s earth), and that we accept the scientific consensus on AGW.
 
…If one looks at China, for instance, a horribly polluted environment is a price they are obviously willing to pay for better living standards. We can say all we want about emissions, but they pay absolutely no attention, and won’t.

On the other hand, some things actually might be adopted by others if we are able to demonstrate that they produce tangible benefits. Desertification is, for example, a terrible problem in China, and it’s getting worse. But China can’t point to economic benefits from desertification. If we have any expectation of influencing others in the world to adopt more environmentally friendly policies, we have to demonstrate that they’re economically beneficial here. We could do that, but we don’t. Instead, our policymakers insist on policies that adversely impact the economies of individuals and the country as a whole, and vainly expect that somehow others on this planet will follow suit.
China is a truly pathetic country. Acc to a docu I saw the costs of its environmental harms outweigh its growth in GDP/year (and their “EPA” has absolutely no authority at all). They are going backwards fast.

Which brings up another issue – anti-environmentalists and climate change skeptics often say AGW is a hoax that is being perpetrated by “warmers” who want to bring the world into totalitarian communism.

The point is the totalitarian nations like China (and Russia) have a much worse track record on the environment than do democratic nations.

However the problem is we can hardly call ourselves a democracy when the multinationals own the goverment and the media (including a big presence on the internet), and have enormous influence on our public educational systems and also in our local parishes.

We just don’t get the truth and are flying blind by not understanding that AGW is real and needs to be addressed by everyone starting 20 years ago.

The world is as pathetic as China.

But talking about why people reject AGW is getting off topic. On good thing China is doing is getting in to making alt energy products… So if the US refuses to encourage such production, at least we have some source from which to buy things we want…
 
…If the U.S. stopped all emissions tomorrow, it would curtail about 17% of the world’s total, but it would be quickly made up by the fact that India and China alone increase theirs by about 10% annually. Insulting those who are less impressed than some by MMGW by calling us “deniers” will do nothing to change the minds of people like myself and certainly will have no effect on India or China.
If one considers that China has 4 times the pop as the US, and per capita emits about 1/4 the GHG emissions of America, we can’t really throw rotten eggs at them yet.

Also, if you figure that much of the product goes to the US and other rich countries – well, those are our GHGs, not their. We buy it, we emit it.

India is still a very poor nation, some villages still don’t have electricty, and those that do, a typical family may have a fan and one or two 40-watt tub lights. I think is it really wrong to expect a poor villager in India to give up his tube-light and the chance for his children to study at night so they might hope to go to college.

I’m thinking what we could do is help those nations in whatever way we can to develop along a “soft path” as Amory Lovins suggests (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_energy_path). There are lots of things that can help those people both environmentally and economically – like solar ovens and biogas operations for generators to light their villages, etc. I’ve seen some documentaries on a few successful projects.

Here is something designed for poor countries (and us when our power fails or we go camping): The WakaWaka Solar Light: wakawakalight.com/
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The new CAFE standards will, if adhered to, reduce the TOTAL predicted accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere between now and 2040 by approximately 1/12 of the production for that year. That’s it.
Every tiny bit helps. That’s the Little Way of Environmental Healing.

Too bad we were putting auto tech advances into bigger and more powerful cars these past 3 decades rather than into more fuel efficient cars. The luxuries of us super-rich
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I think the "gravity-powered light is cooler myself. hiconsumption.com/2012/12/gravity-powered-lights/

Essentially works on the same principles as your grandfathers clock. (Weight drops over time) Pretty awesome third world solution!
I was just thinking of that the other day, except the one I saw was a regular-looking standing lamp. One simply lifts the weight at the base up close to the light, then releases and it spirals down very slowly, I think for an hour or so, power the light. And i guess us couch-potatoes could use that exercise.

Then I remember a product sold by Real Goods (which has since sold out to Gaiam). A bicycle power-gnerator rack; you set you bicycle on it, and peddle away to create power. The picture they featured was of a kid cycling in front of the TV, with the caption, “have your kids generate their own power for watching TV.” Something like this:
http://www.yesmagazine.org/images/issues/103/50Rev_generator.jpg

Those were the “can-do” days without all this whinning about “there’s nothing we could do anyway [read: nothing I want to do].”
 
There’s a certain truth to the CAFE comment that is interesting to ponder. I bought my first new car in 1995, a Saturn SL stick shift rated 40 mpg highway. In 2003 when I went to replace it there were NO conventional cars (gasoline, non-hybrid) cars on the market rated 40 or better. Finally, in 2011 GM caught back up to where they were in 1995 when they introduced the 2011 Chevy Cruze Eco model rated 42. Today they’ve got several cars rated over 40 (including the, IMO, gimmicky Volt).

Unlike the Saturn, the Cruze isn’t even a penalty box car. It has all the safety gadgets, comfort frills and refinement of other cars in its class. It just happens to be the ONLY car sold today that offers a manual transmission with gear ratios optimized for fuel efficiency. All the others are “sport tuned” which is why most of them get worse mpg ratins than the automatic versions (pathetic since even a modern automatic with torque converter is inherently wasteful of energy).

We do have a stupidity problem in America when it comes to wastefulness. One doesn’t have to be a “warmer” to admit that.
 
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