What makes a God who allows eternal suffering worthy of my worship?

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God did not create us in His image to be His slaves. He wants us to love Him of our own free will. That is a beautiful thing. We choose to live with God for all eternity or to be without Him. God created us to love and to live with Him forever.

God created teh angels with free will and the angel, Lucifer, bearer of light, chose to defy God, and had a desire to be equal to God, he was sent to Hell along with the angels who made the same choice against God.

We choose whether to set our hearts and minds on God, or to be led astray by the glamor and attractiveness of sin.

God shows all mercy to those who will have it, it is a free gift, but if we don’t want it, God isn’t going to *force *his salvation upon us. We choose to love God with our whole hearts and minds and to love our neighbors as ourselves, or to reject God’s mercy, forgiveness and a faithful relationship with Him. God is a loving God, a merciful God, not a slave driver.
 
Simply saying something doen’t exists doesn’t make it go away.

You’re acting like the little kid who covers his eyes and tells everyone in the room, “you can’t see me”. It’s rather cute, but totally irrational.

There are some folks who have totally embraced evil, and the hate they have chosen for their lives will continue with them for eternity.

Some folks who have seen it, (as in the kids at Fatima, and a few others) will tell you it’s no tall tale. Hell is there, just as Heaven is there, and God exists.

You can claim you don’t believe from now until the moon turns to green cheese, but that will not make it go away. Live a just life of peace and love, and you don’t have to worry about it. It won’t exist for you. Live a life of selfishness, crime, and evil, and you’re toast, whether you choose to believe it or not.

regards, wc
 
The more pertinent question to ask would be:

What makes us worthy of a God who would become human and die the horrible death Jesus died to save us from hell?
 
Hi Jax,Do you believe there is a Heaven? If so,How do you know you are getting in? What have you done to deserve heaven? :confused: God Bless
 
Another thing to consider, besides the fact that it is not God who condemns us to something we didn’t want, but us actually choosing hell ourselves in preference to choosing God, comes the issue of eternal justice.

We may think that we are holier and more merciful than God in saying that we don’t want anybody to be condemned to hell. . .but tell me how merciful it is to tell somebody who has freely chosen hell and the absence of God to be, as it were, “saved” in spite of himself or herself. What you’re attempting to do, in the spirit of total “equality”, is to force people into an equal situation whether they want it or not, are capable of it or not. . .and you call this “justice” and “fairness” instead of what it is. . .rank injustice and inequality, based solely on the fact that your personal opinion doesn’t want “anyone to suffer”, so you think that God shouldn’t want “anyone to suffer” either. Well, He doesn’t want anyone to suffer, not even His own Son who suffered and died on the cross for us. . .but He also doesn’t want either little robots who agree with Him no matter what, or “forced save” souls who spent their lives denying, denigrating, despising and rejecting Him, and will continue to deny, denigrate, despise and reject Him for eternity, forced into a pseudo ACCEPTANCE of Him, all in the name of “tolerance” and Love. It is a false sort of love that is mostly concerned with the feelings of the one who “hates to see suffering”, rather than the one they are supposedly so concerned with.
 
From Saint Faustina’s Diary:

Today, I was led by an Angel to the chasms of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw: the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it, a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is conditional darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of satan, the seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. **I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like. **

I, sister Faustina, by the order of God, have visited the abysses of hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence. I cannot speak about it now; but I have received a command from God to leave it in writing. The devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God. What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: **that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell. **When I came to, I could hardly recover from the fright. How terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God’s mercy upon them. O my Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, then offend You by the least sin.
 
Steve Andersen:
He doesn’t “allow” it

we choose it

ya places yer bets and ya takes yer chances 😉
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Does that mean that it is out of His control? If so, then He cannot be omnipotent. If we choose it, then another condition exists for Him to not be omnipotent. If we can choose something He would not want us to choose then He certainly is not omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, then He is not merciful.
 
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ahimsaman72:
Does that mean that it is out of His control? If so, then He cannot be omnipotent. If we choose it, then another condition exists for Him to not be omnipotent. If we can choose something He would not want us to choose then He certainly is not omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, then He is not merciful.
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do you think god can draw a square circle?

look, omnipotence is circumscribed by, at the very least, logical possibility: an omnipotent being, though omnipotent, can perform only those acts that are logically possible. which such a being’s not being able, for instance, to create a rock heavier than it can lift does not count against its omnipotence.

in the same way, god cannot cause free choices. since a “caused free choice” is self-contradictory in the same way that a square circle is self-contradictory.

perhaps a better way to think of “omnipotence” is as something like “maximal power”…
 
john doran:
do you think god can draw a square circle?

look, omnipotence is circumscribed by, at the very least, logical possibility: an omnipotent being, though omnipotent, can perform only those acts that are logically possible. which such a being’s not being able, for instance, to create a rock heavier than it can lift does not count against its omnipotence.

in the same way, god cannot cause free choices. since a “caused free choice” is self-contradictory in the same way that a square circle is self-contradictory.

perhaps a better way to think of “omnipotence” is as something like “maximal power”…
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I believe God is outside of logical possibilities. It’s not logical that Christ could raise from the dead. It’s not logical that a person can turn from being “normal” to being a serial murderer. There are some very illogical possibilities in this universe. I’ve had similar conversations with others about logic and God and it gets nowhere.

Far too often attributes of humans are mistakenly given to be identical to the attributes of God - which in my mind is illogical considering God is divine and we simply are not.

Peace…
 
Hi Jaxboy,

You said:

“My own answer to my question is “Nothing about a God who allows eternal suffering is worthy of anyone’s worship.’ Therefore, the God I believe in does not allow eternal suffering. Therefore, there is no hell.”

How do you know this? Since you haven’t died yet, you would have no way of knowing whether or not there is a hell or a place of eternal suffering. And since you haven’t been beyond the grave, to make an absolute statement like that, you would have to know all things before coming to that conclusion. You would have to be omniscient.

When you come to the realization in your life that you don’t know everything, that in fact you don’t know anything, but you do want to know what lies beyond the grave, that you do want to know what God is like, that you want to know Him, then you have the beginning of humility and you can approach God and ask Him.

He has revealed Himself to human beings in the course of history and those humans have written down what they saw and heard. God Himself came down and took on human flesh and became man, the ultimate revelation of God in this life. He established a Church where you can meet Him and learn about Him.

Are you ready?

Grace and peace to you,

Gene
 
john doran:
do you think god can draw a square circle?

look, omnipotence is circumscribed by, at the very least, logical possibility: an omnipotent being, though omnipotent, can perform only those acts that are logically possible. which such a being’s not being able, for instance, to create a rock heavier than it can lift does not count against its omnipotence.

in the same way, god cannot cause free choices. since a “caused free choice” is self-contradictory in the same way that a square circle is self-contradictory.

perhaps a better way to think of “omnipotence” is as something like “maximal power”…
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You are limiting God to your limited understanding of logic.
 
Tantum ergo:
Another thing to consider, besides the fact that it is not God who condemns us to something we didn’t want, but us actually choosing hell ourselves in preference to choosing God, comes the issue of eternal justice.

We may think that we are holier and more merciful than God in saying that we don’t want anybody to be condemned to hell. . .but tell me how merciful it is to tell somebody who has freely chosen hell and the absence of God to be, as it were, “saved” in spite of himself or herself. What you’re attempting to do, in the spirit of total “equality”, is to force people into an equal situation whether they want it or not, are capable of it or not. . .and you call this “justice” and “fairness” instead of what it is. . .rank injustice and inequality, based solely on the fact that your personal opinion doesn’t want “anyone to suffer”, so you think that God shouldn’t want “anyone to suffer” either. Well, He doesn’t want anyone to suffer, not even His own Son who suffered and died on the cross for us. . .but He also doesn’t want either little robots who agree with Him no matter what, or “forced save” souls who spent their lives denying, denigrating, despising and rejecting Him, and will continue to deny, denigrate, despise and reject Him for eternity, forced into a pseudo ACCEPTANCE of Him, all in the name of “tolerance” and Love. It is a false sort of love that is mostly concerned with the feelings of the one who “hates to see suffering”, rather than the one they are supposedly so concerned with.
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I agree. JaxBoy is confusing mercy with justice. God has shown he has perfect mercy. He is also the perfect judge. Each soul will get what it deserves. JaxBoy’s wish that no one suffer is a Hugh capacity of love. He is gifted.
 
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ahimsaman72:
I believe God is outside of logical possibilities. It’s not logical that Christ could raise from the dead. It’s not logical that a person can turn from being “normal” to being a serial murderer. There are some very illogical possibilities in this universe. I’ve had similar conversations with others about logic and God and it gets nowhere.
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you are confusing logic with something like predictability; i am using “logic” in it’s technical sense, as something like “A branch of philosophy and mathematics that deals with the formal principles, methods and criteria of validity of inference, reasoning and knowledge”.

it is impossible to engage in rational conversation with someone else without assuming the laws of logic. so, if you deny them, or try to suspend them, it is no wonder that you get nowhere.
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ahimsaman72:
Far too often attributes of humans are mistakenly given to be identical to the attributes of God - which in my mind is illogical considering God is divine and we simply are not.
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is that sort of like the mistake someone makes when they presume to attribute a concept like “power” to god when they say something like “if we do something god cannot prevent, then he is not omnipotent. if he is omnipotent than he is not merciful”?

just wondering.
 
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Maranatha:
I agree. JaxBoy is confusing mercy with justice. God has shown he has perfect mercy. He is also the perfect judge. Each soul will get what it deserves. JaxBoy’s wish that no one suffer is a Hugh capacity of love. He is gifted.
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From Faustina’s Diary - Jesus’ words in red - Saint Faustina in black

(The next night) I saw my Guardian Angel, who ordered me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames which were burning them did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls called Her the Star of the Sea. She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of that prison of suffering. ( I heard an interior voice) which said, “My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it.” Since that time, I am in closer communion with the suffering souls.
 
"My image already is in your soul. I desire that there be a Feast of Mercy. I want this image, which you will paint with a brush, to be solemnly blessed on the first Sunday after Easter; that Sunday is to be the Feast of Mercy. “I desire that priests proclaim this great mercy of Mine towards souls of sinners. Let the sinner not be afraid to approach Me. The flames of mercy are burning Me- clamoring to be spent; I want to pour them out upon these souls”.

God will not deny His mercy to anyone. Heaven and earth may change, but God’s mercy will never be exhausted. Oh, what immense joy burns in my heart when I contemplate Your incomprehensible goodness, O Jesus! I desire to bring all sinners to Your feet that they may glorify Your mercy throughout endless ages.
 
john doran:
do you think god can draw a square circle?

look, omnipotence is circumscribed by, at the very least, logical possibility: an omnipotent being, though omnipotent, can perform only those acts that are logically possible. which such a being’s not being able, for instance, to create a rock heavier than it can lift does not count against its omnipotence.

in the same way, god cannot cause free choices. since a “caused free choice” is self-contradictory in the same way that a square circle is self-contradictory.

perhaps a better way to think of “omnipotence” is as something like “maximal power”…
Click to expand...
I think you have the right idea about omnipotence. I don’t believe logic is the rule of the order it serves though. God’s omnipotence is rearealized when it is ordered toward the good. Paul said " Nothing is forbidden me but not all does good."

There is no evil in God therefore like any human artist God’s creation never finds it’s source in any other but God. That which lacks God cannot be His doing. In as much as something lacks God it lacks order, freedom, and potency. Omnipotence is not realized in acts that lack the good of God.

God’s wrath isn’t outside of His good. Wrath not ordered as He would order it is in vain. God’s wrath is a good that helps man become directed towards fulfillment.

God did beget a rock that He couldn’t lift but did in fact lift that rock up to Himself.
 
"Write this: before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy. Before the day of justice arrives, there will be given to people a sign in the heavens of this sort.

“My daughter, speak to priests about this inconceivable mercy of Mine. The flames of mercy are burning Me - clamoring to be spent; I want to keep pouring them upon souls; souls just don’t want to believe in My goodness.”

"Mankind will not have peace until it turns with trust to My mercy.
 
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Jaxboy:
Let me start by saying that I am not Catholic, nor am I a Christian. I do believe in God. I do not believe in hell. I ask this question honestly, seeking an answer from the Catholic perspective:

What makes a God who allows eternal suffering worthy of my worship?
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Let me ask you some reverse questions. How would your God deal with the afterlife? Would all be with Him in heaven, no matter how they had lived their lives on earth? Would our earthly lives then have no meaning? Would your God force every person to love Him after death? Or could a person be in heaven and not love God?
 
There’s a certan arrogance in this question… as if God needs our worship, and we are in some position of giving it out to whomever we choose.

Suppose someone offended you and you sent your son to offer forgiveness to these folks. But instead of being grateful for the offer of mercy, they insult and abuse you and your son. And not only that they insist on harassing other folks and commit all sorts of misdeeds.

Personnally, I’d be pretty upset, and let them rot in jail/hell or where ever for all eternity.

Justice will be served, and serious sin unrepented, will ultimately lead to you know where.

Whether you believe in it or not, it is not some place you want to be. Saying it ain’t so, will not make it go away.

WC
 
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