What Michael Moore (and the neocons) Don't Know About Saudi Arabia

[gnjsdad]

Some insightful analysis by Middle East expert Juan Cole

The left and the right have both crudely demonized the desert kingdom. But the ascension of King Abdullah gives the U.S. a chance to solidify relations with this flawed but key ally.

---

By Juan Cole

The entire article…

 

[Scott_Waddell]

gnjsdad:

Some insightful analysis by Middle East expert Juan Cole

The left and the right have both crudely demonized the desert kingdom. But the ascension of King Abdullah gives the U.S. a chance to solidify relations with this flawed but key ally.

---

By Juan Cole

The entire article…

My eyes glazed over in the first sentence and only noted the hyperbolic “America faces the long, daunting task of recovering from George W. Bush’s catastrophic foreign-policy blunders…” Could you give us the main argument?

Scott

 

[Nichevo]

Check out Mr. Cole’s site. Can you say agenda? The ads he displays on his site are blatantly partisan. He seems to do nothing more than regurgitate news stories. He seems to have read a lot of books but never managed to get any sand on his boots. Typical, yet another academic with all the answers and no concept of reality…

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH…

 

[gilliam]

Scott Waddell:

My eyes glazed over in the first sentence and only noted the hyperbolic “America faces the long, daunting task of recovering from George W. Bush’s catastrophic foreign-policy blunders…” Could you give us the main argument?

Scott

Work with the new king of Saudi Arabia

 

[gnjsdad]

gilliam:

Work with the new king of Saudi Arabia

Good advice

 

[gnjsdad]

Scott Waddell:

My eyes glazed over in the first sentence and only noted the hyperbolic “America faces the long, daunting task of recovering from George W. Bush’s catastrophic foreign-policy blunders…” Could you give us the main argument?

Scott

From the article…

*What approach to the Saudis should the United States take? The American right often attempts to imply that the only two choices in foreign policy are either to coddle dictators or to send in the army for regime change. There is no reason, however, that the United States cannot exercise steadfast, firm pressure behind the scenes for increased human rights, more open politics, and more effective steps against terrorism in Saudi Arabia. In the Gulf, where frankness is appropriate only in private, humiliating criticisms of the kingdom by U.S. officials, or the brandishing of implicit threats, will wreak more harm than good. *

*The Americans, however, would be wise to see their relationship with the kingdom as a two-way street. When the Saudi king warns the White House that an explosion will come if progress is not made toward a Palestinian state with its capital in East Jerusalem, the warning should be taken seriously. When a Saudi ruler puts his enormous prestige on the line to advance a comprehensive peace plan, it should not be lightly tossed in the trash bin. When the Saudi establishment warns that American wars waged against regional powers might plunge the area into chaos, it should be listened to carefully. *

With two-thirds of the world’s proven petroleum reserves, the gulf is the cockpit of the global economy, and the Saudis are its pilots. King Abdullah is understandably worried about the Bush administration tossing grenades around in it.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

gilliam:

Work with the new king of Saudi Arabia

Great, I’ll wait for his next article warning us that used kitty litter is not food.

Scott

 

[manualman]

Perhaps he would like us to paint nice neat targets on the forheads of all Israelis for him whiel we are at it. Would that help too?

Israel is just a handy dandy scapegoat. If the arab world got their way tommorrow and machine gunned every single Israeli citizen, they would have a new scapegoat for their rage next week.

Here’s the REAL deal in the arab world. The leaders are scum who use their power to steal EVERYTHING from their own people instead of using it to create a prosperous environment for everyone. Then they create scapegoats to blame for the very real injustice that everyone in the region KNOWS exists. Do you guys have ANY idea how much wealth the Saudi royals squander on themselves??? Same goes for the rest.

 

[walstan]

manualman:

Perhaps he would like us to paint nice neat targets on the forheads of all Israelis for him whiel we are at it. Would that help too?

Israel is just a handy dandy scapegoat. If the arab world got their way tommorrow and machine gunned every single Israeli citizen, they would have a new scapegoat for their rage next week.

Here’s the REAL deal in the arab world. The leaders are scum who use their power to steal EVERYTHING from their own people instead of using it to create a prosperous environment for everyone. Then they create scapegoats to blame for the very real injustice that everyone in the region KNOWS exists. Do you guys have ANY idea how much wealth the Saudi royals squander on themselves??? Same goes for the rest.

Aahhhh… the moderated voice of reason and common sense!!

 

[Franze]

Can you trust in Saudi Arabia? It´s a country that have spreaded the wahabbism in the world, without freedom religion. Only has petroleum. Please don´t sell our soul. We need honor and dignity in addition of money.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Franze:

Can you trust in Saudi Arabia? It´s a country that have spreaded the wahabbism in the world, without freedom religion. Only has petroleum. Please don´t sell our soul. We need honor and dignity in addition of money.

What kind of relationship do you want between the United States and the Saudis? Between Spain and the Saudis?

 

[manualman]

walstan:

Aahhhh… the moderated voice of reason and common sense!!

Oversimplified for a web post, perhaps. But no worse than the oversimplifications of those nitwits who think that if we give up support for Israel the Middle East problems will go away. Giving up support for Israel is just a SLIGHTLY nicer way of saying paint a bullseye on their heads.

As for my Arab leadership judgement, harsh I admit. But from the Taliban to the Saudis, the intrinsic pattern is the same: Use power to squeeze every possible personal gain from the people, then use scapegoat rhetoric to direct their resentment and rage elsewhere.

Would you like to comment on the ideas, or just my approach?

 

[walstan]

manualman:

Oversimplified for a web post, perhaps. But no worse than the oversimplifications of those nitwits who think that if we give up support for Israel the Middle East problems will go away. Giving up support for Israel is just a SLIGHTLY nicer way of saying paint a bullseye on their heads.

As for my Arab leadership judgement, harsh I admit. But from the Taliban to the Saudis, the intrinsic pattern is the same: Use power to squeeze every possible personal gain from the people, then use scapegoat rhetoric to direct their resentment and rage elsewhere.

Would you like to comment on the ideas, or just my approach?

OK here we go…

Ever worked with or even dealt with the saudi’s? probably not, I would suspect your knowledge, like most people from the western world, comes directly from Fox News.

One or two ideas for you to chew over:

1. Not everyone is the same, there are good Saudi’s, there are bad Saudi’s, bit like good and bad Americans really.
2. The Saudi’s “use power to squeeze every possibel gain from people”, your quote. Been to Wall Street recently? Now who do you think the Saudi’s learned it from? The House of Saud have been “in bed” with American business since the formation of ARAMCO in the 1930’s.
3. Whahabyism. It may be the “official” sect in Saudi, unfortunately most Saudi’s are Sunni. Whahabi exists srongest in two towns in the north, Hial and Burraydah, as a amtter if interest thats where the majority of the Saudi’d involved in 7/11 came from.
4. Bin Laden. Know the family, in fact used to work alongside them in construction and Osama’s English teacher lives quite near to me. Try talking to his family, ask them what they think, if you understood Arabic you would learn quite a number of new swear words.
5. Giving up support for Israel? Nobody in their right mind would suggest it but, good friends don’t turn a blind eye when a mate gets things wrong, and believe me Israel often gets things wrong. At the moment Israel may be doing something positive towards peace in Palestine, i.e. pulling out of some of the occupied territory, why hasn’t the Bush administration shouted from the rooftops about how this can only help towards peace in the Middle east?
6. America’s support for the Palestinians. Dog trainers have an old saying, “If you keep on beating a dog, don’t be suprised if he bites you”. And if you want another old saying “The best way of totally destroying your enemies is to make them your friends”. Seems to be a step to far for some, could it be they don’t want to win?

This is getting boring, “prejudice never listens to reason” but I suppose it still has to be said, hopefully, if only for those that are capable of making indepedant decisions not based on others views.

 

[manualman]

I hear your frustration about knee jerk reactions. Unfortunately, I think you are somewhat guilty right here.

Reread my posts and you’ll note that my harsh criticism is for the LEADERSHIP of the arab world, not Osama’s old English teacher or relatives. (In one section, I may have not clearly distinguished between Saudi citizens and the actual House of Saud.)

As to the comments re: Wall Street, you better believe every nation has power hunger tyrant wannabees. We happen to enjoy a system we inherited from some extremely wise men which has done a half decent job of ensuring that the resources of this nation benefit the nation as a whole, not exclusively the Trump & Cheney types.

I stand by my criticism that leadership in that part of the world is criminally self-serving and uses the Israeli scapegoat as a pressure release valve.
P.S. I don’t have cable TV. Never seen Fox News. I read.

As to #5, Bush may wisely sense that any trumpeting on his part may in fact WEAKEN Sharon’s position at home by giving the impression that Bush dictates the Israeli action. Staying quiet allows Sharon to credibly claim the action as his own in the name of decency and fairness, not pressure.

#6 Believe me, I’ve looked for positive Palestinian initiatives to support. Unfortunately, I can’t think of any. Arafat spent most of his last years making arabic statements totally contradictory to his english ones and he destroyed the effectiveness of the PA so thoroughly in the process that Abbas CAN’T do much even if he wants to. Why can’t Palestinians renounce the nazi hate of Haj Amin and admit that it was HIM who birthed these troubles, accept the temporary national loss of Jerusalem as atonement and declare that once Palestine becomes a nation in its own right, it will EARN the right to claim status of Jerusalem as an international city through ten years of peaceful coexistance with Israel. They’d get peace in a hurry. And a chance to build a real nation instead of phantom dreams of vengeance and victory in battle.

 

[Franze]

Ani Ibi:

What kind of relationship do you want between the United States and the Saudis? Between Spain and the Saudis?

I want the same that the apartheid South Africa and western.

 

[walstan]

manualman:

Why can’t Palestinians renounce the nazi hate of Haj Amin and admit that it was HIM who birthed these troubles, accept the temporary national loss of Jerusalem as atonement and declare that once Palestine becomes a nation in its own right, it will EARN the right to claim status of Jerusalem as an international city through ten years of peaceful coexistance with Israel.

For exactly the same reason that the Irish still sing songs about Kevin Barry, The English trumpet numerous heroes that wern’t, the Americans glorify the Old West etc. etc. etc. It’s called HUMAN NATURE. Try telling Hollywood that Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow were just a couple of dumb hoodlums!!!

When all the powers that be and what appears to be the world is against you, everybody needs some form of national hero, if those hero’s can only come from the troubles that have been created then those are the hero’s you will get. Just think, if Santa Anna had won the Battle of the Alamo easily and his subsequent battles he would now be a great American hero. It is certain that Haj Amin is not what we (and in this context I agree with you) would consider a hero but given the current situation try finding somebody else from recent Palestinian history who has not been involved in the troubles?

Your final comment that in ten years the Palestinians could EARN the right to Jerusalem is total (Phonetically BRAVO LIMA XRAY), how about sharing New Mexico and half of Texas with the Mexicans as they had a better claim to it before America became a nation!!! Have a feeling that wouldn’t go down to well in Washington as much as any claim by the Palestinians would go down with the Isreali’s.

 

[manualman]

I think you are wrong and underestimate bulk of the Israeli people. Like the bulk of the Palestinians, they are sick of hate and blood. Unlike the Palestinians, the Israelies really do have a free press where widely diverse ideas are discussed openly.

If a peace plan were put together where Palestinians agreed to accept the current Gaza and West Bank borders as national boundaries for now in return for economic and development aid, I think the Israeli people would very quickly vote into office a government that would accept a treaty stipulation that after a period of time (say 10 years) that PROVED that the Palestinians had outgrown their desire to throw Israel into the sea, Israel would accept international status for at least a substantial portion of Jerusalem.

That’s my read. Yup, there are nutcases in the Israeli public too (so tragically demonstrated a number of years ago), but the bulk are reasonable people, just like the Palestinians. If the Palestinian leadership were willing to accept a long term gradual approach that acknowledged the fact that the Israelis have good reason to fear for their nation’s very life, things WOULD be different.

That would be totally different than a unilateral demand by Mexico today to have Texas and NM back. It would be mutually agreed BEFORE the time period elapsed.