What Mormons Think Of The Trinity

  • Thread starter Thread starter zerinus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Not to mention that he takes things entirely out of context. St. Serapion is the monk who wrote:

“Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, . . . and I know not whom to adore or to address.”

Holland fails to inform his audience of just who this monk was, or the circumstances surrounding his utterance. For the fourth century monk was the heretic Serapion, and the reason why he cried out was that he discovered that the “Anthropomorphite” god that he had been worshiping turned out to be a false god.

When Serapion is confronted with the error of his thinking, according the Early Church Father, John Cassian, Serapion “was drawn to the faith of the Catholic tradition.” During a prayer of thanksgiving Serapion was so emotionally overcome that “he burst into a flood of bitter tears and continual sobs, and cast himself down on the ground and exclaimed with strong groanings” his woeful statement. Therefore, a little context always helps to understand just what is going on, rather than a mere emotional special pleading, and misleading people into thinking something that is contrary to fact.
I think Holland had it right. Sarapion was a “man living a truly good life” except that he didn’t believe in the make up of God of that era. Paphnutius tried to convince him but couldn’t so along came Photinus who said “that unmeasurable, incomprehensible, invisible majesty cannot be limited by a human frame or likeness. His nature is incorporeal (having no material body or form), uncompounded (having no bounds), simple, and cannot be seen by human eyes nor conceived adequately by a human mind” ()- means I added dictionary meaning. Then as you state they took the anthropomorphic image of god away from him…and that is when he threw himself on the ground.

I’m catching up slowly but at this era God had no body as has been stated in previous posts. I guess that will come along even after the time of the Nicene Creed when the Constantine confirmed the legislation of the council, without the presents of Pope Silvester. I’m puzzled why the Pope who is to receive revelation wasn’t present and he could have cleared up the misconceptions amoungs the Bishop’s and yet he allowed Constantine the emperor to confirm the legislation of the council.

Another question - could you point me to doctrine which would explain why man was not created in god’s image as Bishop Theopphilus letter seemed to state? This seems to be the issue with the monk Sarapion, and the heretics of Egypt, and ascetic brotherhood.
 
Where did you ever get the idea that “the Pope is to receive revelation”?

Jesus is the complete and final revelation of God. Nothing further is needed.

Paul
 
I think Holland had it right. Sarapion was a “man living a truly good life” except that he didn’t believe in the make up of God of that era. Paphnutius tried to convince him but couldn’t so along came Photinus who said “that unmeasurable, incomprehensible, invisible majesty cannot be limited by a human frame or likeness. His nature is incorporeal (having no material body or form), uncompounded (having no bounds), simple, and cannot be seen by human eyes nor conceived adequately by a human mind” ()- means I added dictionary meaning. Then as you state they took the anthropomorphic image of god away from him…and that is when he threw himself on the ground.

I’m catching up slowly but at this era God had no body as has been stated in previous posts. I guess that will come along even after the time of the Nicene Creed when the Constantine confirmed the legislation of the council, without the presents of Pope Silvester. I’m puzzled why the Pope who is to receive revelation wasn’t present and he could have cleared up the misconceptions amoungs the Bishop’s and yet he allowed Constantine the emperor to confirm the legislation of the council.

Another question - could you point me to doctrine which would explain why man was not created in god’s image as Bishop Theopphilus letter seemed to state? This seems to be the issue with the monk Sarapion, and the heretics of Egypt, and ascetic brotherhood.
You’re really confused. :confused:

Trying to decipher what you got going here, I’d say the first problem is that you need to understand the Trinity, as Christians understand it.

God the Father
God the Son - eternally incarnate
God the Holy Spirit

There is precedence for this, in Sacred Tradition, going back to the Apostles. The Nicene Creed did not change What God Is, any more than the Bible changed the message of Christ. Both emerged for the same reasons. Addressing error. Declaring what Christians have always believed.

Also, Serapion was adhering to a belief of the day…paganism. Creating God in man’s image. This was his error, as said by Abbot Isaac:

And against this mistake of theirs this text may be used: “And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of corruptible man.” (Romans 1:23)

And honestly, if you are reading the letters of Theophilus, you should know immediately that they are Catholic teachings. What Catholics know and believe, to this day. I am not sure what bit you have picked out and are questioning, but if you are accepting one line of Theophilus, then you must read it all and accept it all, otherwise, it is not an honest reading.

When I read Theophilus, everything he relates in regards to the Creation is what Catholics believe, and in fact, the copy at CCEL notes where the Nicene Council used Theophilus explanations, directly.

I’m pulling out this bit, I don’t know if this is what you are referring to though:

But as to what relates to the creation of man, his own creation cannot
be explained by man, though it is a succinct account of it which holy
Scripture gives. For when God said, “Let Us make man in Our image,
after Our likeness,” He first intimates the dignity of man. For God
having made all things by His Word, and having reckoned them all mere
bye-works, reckons the creation of man to be the only work worthy of
His own hands. Moreover, God is found, as if needing help, to say, “Let
Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.” But to no one else than
to His own Word and wisdom did He say, “Let Us make.”

His Word is His Son, Jesus Christ, please understand that at least. If you understand that, and understand that God has always said He is One God, then you’re beginning to understand the concept of the Trinity.

If you are truly seeking to understand, I pray you succeed.
 
Jesus is part of The Trinity

Exodus 3:15-18 - The Hebrew consonants for the divine name, I AM, are YHWH. By changing the pronunciation, the term JEHOVAH is made. **Is “Jehovah” (I AM) the Name of the one true God according to Mormonism? **

Do Mormons agree that using the divine Name in vain, or applying it to oneself, would be considered blasphemy in the Old Testament? (cf. Ex. 20:7; Deut. 5:11). What would the penalty for doing this be? (cf. Lev. 24:16).

In John 8:21-59 Jesus repeatedly claims the divine name “I AM” for Himself. The Jews understood that He was calling Himself God and wanted to stone Him for blasphemy (cf. John 5:18, 8:59, 10:30-36). Why would the Jews seek to stone Jesus if He wasn’t claiming to be God, especially since execution by stoning was reserved by Jewish Law for only a few crimes?

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
Jesus is part of The Trinity

Exodus 3:15-18 - The Hebrew consonants for the divine name, I AM, are YHWH. By changing the pronunciation, the term JEHOVAH is made. **Is “Jehovah” (I AM) the Name of the one true God according to Mormonism? **

Do Mormons agree that using the divine Name in vain, or applying it to oneself, would be considered blasphemy in the Old Testament? (cf. Ex. 20:7; Deut. 5:11). What would the penalty for doing this be? (cf. Lev. 24:16).

In John 8:21-59 Jesus repeatedly claims the divine name “I AM” for Himself. The Jews understood that He was calling Himself God and wanted to stone Him for blasphemy (cf. John 5:18, 8:59, 10:30-36). Why would the Jews seek to stone Jesus if He wasn’t claiming to be God, especially since execution by stoning was reserved by Jewish Law for only a few crimes?

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
Mormons believe Jesus is Jehovah. Mormons believe the name for the Father is Elohim. They are considered two separate Gods. The Holy Ghost is another separate God.
 
Mormons believe Jesus is Jehovah. Mormons believe the name for the Father is Elohim. They are considered two separate Gods. The Holy Ghost is another separate God.
Exodus 3:15-18 - “Then Moses said to God, ‘If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, “The God of your fathers has sent me to you,” and they ask me, “What is His Name?” what shall I say to them?’ God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM.’. . . ‘Say this to the people of Israel, “I AM has sent me to you. . . The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.” This is My Name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.’”

So who is talking to Moses here? “Elohim”, “Jehovah”, or "The Holy Ghost."
 
Where did you ever get the idea that “the Pope is to receive revelation”?

Jesus is the complete and final revelation of God. Nothing further is needed.

Paul
From the catholic website. “He is the vicar of Christ, his representative on the Earth. He’s the one who substitutes for Christ. He’s the keeper of the keys.” He can also “make doctrinal judgements”

Now it is clear from your post, the Pope can not receive revelation so when doctrines such as the trinity came up back then a council was held to determine this issue. Makes sense. thank you.
 
Trying to decipher what you got going here, I’d say the first problem is that you need to understand the Trinity, as Christians understand it.

God the Father
God the Son - eternally incarnate
God the Holy Spirit

You have to realize I’m feeling like Sarapion right now. I have read and reread your post. Also looked at what Photinus indicated what God was …My whole life I’ve understood that God the Father was the supreme God with a body of flesh and bones but glorified and perfected (way beyond anything we could imagine), and that his Son Jesus Christ now also has a body of Flesh and bones but glorified and perfect, and the Holy Ghost is a spirit. These 3 form the God Head with the Father at the helm. The three as Paul states are one as we are to be one with them (try anyway) but that one is in purpose not in make up. I will contiue reading… maybe in time I will grasp the concept.
 
[Trying to decipher what you got going here, I’d say the first problem is that you need to understand the Trinity, as Christians understand it.

God the Father
God the Son - eternally incarnate
God the Holy Spirit

You have to realize I’m feeling like Sarapion right now. I have read and reread your post. Also looked at what Photinus indicated what God was …My whole life I’ve understood that God the Father was the supreme God **with a body of flesh and bones
but glorified and perfected (way beyond anything we could imagine), and that his Son Jesus Christ now also has a body of Flesh and bones but glorified and perfect, and the Holy Ghost is a spirit. These 3 form the God Head with the Father at the helm. The three as Paul states are one as we are to be one with them (try anyway) but that one is in purpose not in make up. I will contiue reading… maybe in time I will grasp the concept.

I have only recently heard of God the Father having a body of flesh and bone.

Did God the Father ever have an unglorified body like Jesus?

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
[Trying to decipher what you got going here, I’d say the first problem is that you need to understand the Trinity, as Christians understand it.

God the Father
God the Son - eternally incarnate
God the Holy Spirit

You have to realize I’m feeling like Sarapion right now. I have read and reread your post. Also looked at what Photinus indicated what God was …My whole life I’ve understood that God the Father was the supreme God with a body of flesh and bones but glorified and perfected (way beyond anything we could imagine), and that his Son Jesus Christ now also has a body of Flesh and bones but glorified and perfect, and the Holy Ghost is a spirit. These 3 form the God Head with the Father at the helm. The three as Paul states are one as we are to be one with them (try anyway) but that one is in purpose not in make up. I will contiue reading… maybe in time I will grasp the concept.
How can the Holy Ghost have already progressed to godhood when he doesn’t even have a body yet? In Mormonism, a body of flesh and bone is the first step in eternal progression towards godhood. Your Holy Ghost has not taken that first step yet, so how can you call him a god?

Joseph Smith, before he was killed, was planting the idea that he was the incarnation of the Holy Ghost. Many early Mormons believed to their deaths that JS was the Holy Ghost. But the current LDS church denies this.

If a god must have a body, then what is the status of the Holy Ghost?

Thanks,
Paul
[/quote]
 
I have only recently heard of God the Father having a body of flesh and bone.

Did God the Father ever have an unglorified body like Jesus?

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
God himself was Once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.
I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.
These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. (Joseph Smith’s King Follet Sermon, Delivered in the General Conference of the Church, Sunday, April 7, 1844, as printed in History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 302-317)
“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being” (LDS Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, Nov.16, 1859, p.290).
Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father” (LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47)
“I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions…Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman” (LDS Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Deseret News, Church News, Sept.19, 1936, p.2).
The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same” (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64)
Hope this helps,
Paul
 
If God had a spiritual father (a god) and a physical father (dad), then why wouldn’t God mention this in his scripture? How can you not mention anything about someone you loved so deeply and who you worshipped? We even know a fair amount about Jesus’ step father (St. Joseph) and his genealogy. Why does God completely deny his “god” (or his physical father) of even a small shred of recognition.

It would also be very useful to know how God went about his day worshipping and obeying his god or even his physical parents. What life circumstances challenged him and brought him closer to his god? Wouldn’t a historical document of God the Father’s life be useful to us on our journey to eternity?

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
How can the Holy Ghost have already progressed to godhood when he doesn’t even have a body yet? In Mormonism, a body of flesh and bone is the first step in eternal progression towards godhood. Your Holy Ghost has not taken that first step yet, so how can you call him a god?
Paul
You could say the same thing about Jesus Christ prior to his coming to the earth but we know better. in Genesis 1:26 “and God said, let US (PLURAL) make man in our image after our likness:…” 3:22 man is become as one of us (PLURAL), to know good and evil. Moses 2:1 I am … the almighty God; by mine Only begotten I created these things: yea, in the beginning I created the heaven and the earth.
Joseph Smith, before he was killed, was planting the idea that he was the incarnation of the Holy Ghost. Many early Mormons believed to their deaths that JS was the Holy Ghost. But the current LDS church denies this.

Paul
I would deny it too for it is unfounded in the scriptures … Joseph smith talks about the Holy Ghost throughout the Doctrine and Covenants and even an artical of faith and even talks of receiving revalation via the Holy Ghost…
If a god must have a body, then what is the status of the Holy Ghost?
Paul
He is part of the God Head the same as Christ was prior to his brith her on the earth.

A question for you.
1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Seems that Paul understood that there were many God’s but we are subject to our God, the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
You could say the same thing about Jesus Christ prior to his coming to the earth but we know better. in Genesis 1:26 “and God said, let US (PLURAL) make man in our image after our likness:…” 3:22 man is become as one of us (PLURAL), to know good and evil.
That is not a problem for Christians, because we have no notion of multiple gods, nor the idea that a god must have a body. The Holy Trinity has always existed as one God in three persons. No body required.
A question for you.
1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Seems that Paul understood that there were many God’s but we are subject to our God, the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
No, those “that are called gods” are false gods and demons worshiped by the pagans. There were many pagan “gods” that were believed in where St. Paul lived and preached. That is what he is talking about - there are many beings (real or imaginary) that the pagans call gods, but there is really only one God.

It has nothing to do with Joseph Smith’s multiple gods, and just shows how poorly Mormons understand the bible.

Paul
 
Hope this helps,
Paul
“Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father” (LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47)
Does that statement ever make sense? How can you make sense of it? There is no first god anywhere?
 
It makes no sense whatsoever. The Mormon pantheon has no real God. Their universe is uncreated and has always existed, no God required. The Mormon gods evolved from this universe of eternally-existent matter, with no notion of where that matter came from.

And they say our theology is confusing!

Paul
 
A question for you.
1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Seems that Paul understood that there were many God’s but we are subject to our God, the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
That interpretation does great harm to the text, and is totally inaccurate. Where in the Jewish or Christian religion of that time, or any time, is the belief in many gods? No, Paul is talking about the false gods of paganism, of which there were many at that time. The majority of the known world at that time believed in multiple pagan gods. Israel was the one nation that believed in the *one ***God **of the universe. Paul was constantly preaching to the Gentiles that these pagan gods were false gods, and that there was only one real God. All the gods of the Greek and Roman empires were fabrications made up by men to explain the world around them. It is these gods that Paul is referencing.
 
It makes no sense whatsoever. The Mormon pantheon has no real God. Their universe is uncreated and has always existed, no God required. The Mormon gods evolved from this universe of eternally-existent matter, with no notion of where that matter came from.

And they say our theology is confusing!

Paul
I’ve always wondered what would keep the uncreated material universe of Mormonism from destroying the gods which arose from it.
 
Here’s a clue about that.

Popular LDS author and BYU Religion Professor W. Cleon Skousen wrote:
Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such… But since God ‘acquired’ the honor and sustaining influence of ‘all things’ it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or sense of justice’ of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the ‘power’ of God would disintegrate… ‘He would cease to be God.’ Our Heavenly Father can do only those things which the intelligences under Him are voluntarily willing to support Him in accomplishing (The First 2000 Years, pp. 355-356).
Could the Mormon god cease to be a god simply by losing the popular support of his constituents? Were I still Mormon, that would make me very insecure.

Paul
 
Here’s a clue about that.

Popular LDS author and BYU Religion Professor W. Cleon Skousen wrote:
Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such… But since God ‘acquired’ the honor and sustaining influence of ‘all things’ it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or sense of justice’ of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the ‘power’ of God would disintegrate… ‘He would cease to be God.’ Our Heavenly Father can do only those things which the intelligences under Him are voluntarily willing to support Him in accomplishing (The First 2000 Years, pp. 355-356).
It’s even worse than I thought, Paul! :bigyikes:

We will no doubt hear that this is just one lone Mormon giving his own personal opinion and does not represent the teaching of the LDS. :hypno:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top