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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I would say, if some ignorant Muslims, acting very obviously against the teachings of Quran/Islam/Muhammad do some bad deeds; is it essential that the same response is given by good people of the Catholic/Protestant faith? Aren’t some sane peaceful people left in the world? I think there would be many.
I wonder???
Thanks
I would say, if some ignorant Muslims, acting very obviously against the teachings of Quran/Islam/Muhammad do some bad deeds; is it essential that the same response is given by good people of the Catholic/Protestant faith? Aren’t some sane peaceful people left in the world? I think there would be many.
I wonder???
Thanks
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Montalban
Guest
That’s right, I recall some teachers were upset by the radialisation of the school. By the way both your links to the Age are broken
Here’s the link
theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20963226-2702,00.html
I’m certainly glad that the Moslem community did not riot because a single Koran was so treated.
Your point being then that after Moslems in a school defiled the Bible in a school that teachers feared was becoming radicalised* that when the Koran was defiled in apparent retaliation, by persons unknown (who do they target?), Moslems didn’t riot, therefore Moslems are peaceful people?
Very strange.
So when Moslems continually taunt teachers, and then finally burn a Bible, but they don’t do anything further, because they’re under the spot-light, they’re good people!
Anxious teachers at the school have also petitioned principal Shaheem Doutie, expressing “grave concern” about an “inculcation of hatred and radical attitudes towards non-Muslims” at the school, including towards non-Muslim teachers.
“This whole incident implies a deep hatred inculcated in the students towards the Christians/non-Muslim teachers,” it says.
The petition said there had been “previous incidents of students misbehaving towards non-Muslim teachers”
theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20879483-2702,00.html
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Montalban
Guest
Indeed. It seems Fatma’s argument would be like saying “A Moslem boy punched a Christian boy 10 times. The Christian boy punched back once. The Moslem boy didn’t punch anymore. Therefore the Moslem boy is peaceful”
Because the Moslem incidents have been going on for quite some time - according to the very articles Fatma cites!
And we’re to congratulate the Moslems for doing no more after all that! Wow! That must have taken an awful lot of effort
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
When you judge the many based on the actions of a few, then perhaps an apology should be forthcoming. When broad generalizations are used as a way to think about individuals, then again maybe an apology should be forthcoming. When we treat others differently than we wish to be treated outselves, then indeed, maybe an apology should be forthcoming.
I am not here talking about terrorists. But then not all Muslims are terrorists. I am not talking about those who blow up cars and planes and buildings. But how many Muslims do you know who have done such things? How many do you know who even approve of such things? You see, I know of no Muslims who even condone such things, yet I know many Muslims. And when you speak badly of all Muslims in general, you are speaking of them as well. You are speaking of my family and friends. And I will defend them from such false accusation as I have seen made with regard to Muslims in this thread.
Montalban, I don’t know you personally, so I hesitate to actually make judgments about you as a person. Indeed, you have been quite civil in this discussion. But what I also see you doing in this thread is to judge a whole group of people because some who claim to worship the same God they do, have in that God’s name done horrible things. It is guilt by association and this simply does not make sense to me.
These same guilt by association pronouncements could be probably be made every religion, certainly every major religion. There are those who, in the name of Christ, have committed heinous acts, barborous behavior. And I do not just mean the crusades. In my own lifetime, I have seen people firebomb and murder others supposedly in the name of Jesus. The truth is that they were not real Christians (at least not in my estimation), but they claimed they were. And there are some who, not knowing the difference, equated them with all Christians.
I’m asking for you, and others here who have chosen to paint all Muslims with one single brush to quit doing that. I am asking you to recognize that the actions of those who are engaged in terror and who do so while claiming to act in the name of Allah, may in fact not be the truest representatives of Islam in the world today. I am asking you to quite painting my friends and family with the same brush you paint these terrorists, for the only thing they have in common with them is that they pray to Allah. Just as not all who call on the name of Jesus, behave as Christ would have us behave, though they may actually think they do; so it is that, though they may actually think they do, not all who pray to Allah actually live as Allah would have them live.
You may believe what you want about those who are calling for terror, but please quit attributing such attitudes to those who are not just because they happen to be Muslims. It is an injustice to them and an injustice to the truth. Yes, I do think you owe them an apology.
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Montalban
Guest
When you get around to dealing with the evidence I put here, then get back to me, else you’re just repeating your ‘just-so’ (that: I have done what you think I’ve done.)
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RobHom
Guest
Grace Seeker…it is very difficult to feel sympathetic to a group of people who refuse to put there “money where their mouth is” so to speak. If they are such wonderful and peace loving people, then why are they not en mass speaking out against the terrorist and others who persecute people of other faiths?
It is also hard for westerners, of any religion to feel sympathy for a cleric like this one:
No, I don’t think they are owed and apology, but I do think they owe it to the rest of the world to not expect special treatment or expect the balance of the world to respect them and their beliefs all the while they show disrespect and disdain for all things non-muslim.
It is also hard for westerners, of any religion to feel sympathy for a cleric like this one:
That clerics statements and sentiments run against the grain of all religions and creeds, other than apparently islamics. When I saw that…I could not believe that any “cleric” would be foolish enough to even think that. And that muslims are “remaining angry” over the humiliation this cleric brought on himself and his religion…is not our problem. It is a problem within the muslim communities, and the screwed up mentality where women are concerned.
No, I don’t think they are owed and apology, but I do think they owe it to the rest of the world to not expect special treatment or expect the balance of the world to respect them and their beliefs all the while they show disrespect and disdain for all things non-muslim.
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
So you deny that you’ve made broad generalizations that are tantamount to labeling all Muslims as condoning terrorism simply because they happen to be Muslim?When you get around to dealing with the evidence I put here, then get back to me, else you’re just repeating your ‘just-so’ (that: I have done what you think I’ve done.)
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RobHom
Guest
I have made statements along those lines…but the labeling is not due to the fact that they are muslim, but rather because they claim to be a “peaceful religion”…yet the vast majority literally sit on their hands and don’t even utter a single peep against it. Why is this? Are they afraid of masked “hit squads” of terrorists (their own people) shooting them down in the streets of the US or Britain or anywhere else.
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
When you use the word “they” you are including my daughter who is Muslim. When you include my daughter in those statements and describe her as you have done you are not speaking the truth.
My daughter never did any of those things that you speak of. She never showed disrespect to any person because simply because his or her faith was different than her own. Indeed, though a Muslim, except for politely not partaking of the Eucharist she participated with the youth of my church in all of their activities, including joining with us in worship and even had a part in the youth’s Christmas Eve service. Hardly the behavior of a person showing disdain for all things non-Muslim.
I take it as a personal affront that you would smear a member of my family as you have done. I ask you to retract your statement or edit it to reflect the truth.
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Tracyms1974
Guest
Well, I hate to break it to ya, but if a person, Christian or otherwise, is “hateful” to me, I can walk away with little more than hurt feelings. If somebody, Muslim or otherwise, detonates a shop where I happen to be shopping that day, I’m not walking away from that. Let’s not compare apples and oranges here. I’d rather be upset than DEAD any day.
Tracy
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fatma
Guest
That is simply not true. I can only spek for australia but time and time again muslim leaders speak out against terrorism. They do not get the same access to the media however the Sheik that has been referred to above is well known for his condemnation of terrorism along with every other leader from the community. Unfortunately this is never front page news because the media seems to overlook anything that the muslim community says. The muslim community has been responsible for all terrorism related arrests in australia. They have not sat on their hands and kept quiet at all.
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Montalban
Guest
So you deny you’ve made generalisations about other posters ignoring evidence from the Koran, Hadith and Islamic opinion sites, as well as other commentators such as Bostom?
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Montalban
Guest
She’s signed up to a faith that does this. If she doesn’t personally do it, great, but she’s supporting it by being a member of that group.
Muhammed was evil. Anyone who ascribes to a belief-system that puts him as the most ideal-type of person is supporting evil.
Muhammed had sexual relations with a child!!!
What more proofs would you require than that?Moslems, even today, think that that sort of behaviour is excusable. Some, even deny it. Some don’t…
"Of the four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from cAishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abû Hishâm (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim have cAishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahâdîth in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when cAishah was “six years old”, but was not consummated until she was “nine years old”. Additionally, a hadîth with the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abû Dâwûd. Needless to say, this evidence is - Islamically speaking - overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.
This evidence having been established, there doesn’t seem much room for debate about cAishah’s age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language “nine years old” means something other than “nine years old”, then we should all be firm in our belief that she was “nine years old” (as if there’s a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!). In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push cAishah’s age out to as far as “fourteen or fifteen years old” at the time of her marriage to the Prophet(P). It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions. This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadîth collections of Imâms al-Bukhârî and Muslim! Based on the research that I’ve done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that cAishah’s age was “fourteen or fifteen years old” at the time of the marriage. This source is The Biographies of Prominent Muslims which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet. Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . ."
islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html
(We concur with the general contents of the article.
and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best Mufti Ebrahim Desai islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6618)
That doesn’t mean all Moslems are going to do this, but signing onto such a faith is to support that.
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fatma
Guest
smh.com.au/articles/2007/08/30/1188067266454.html
Are all Christians responsible for this? along with every other example of sexual abuse perpetrated by clergy?
Pastor had sex with daughters
August 30, 2007 - 5:37PM
A fundamentalist church pastor had sex with two of his teenage daughters to educate them on how to be good wives, a South Australian court has heard.
The 54-year-old man, who cannot be named, was today sentenced in the SA District Court to eight and a half years jail after pleading guilty to seven counts each of incest and unlawful sexual intercourse.
The court heard that the man had sex with his daughters for nearly a decade from 1991 when they were aged 13 and 15 at the family property.
The sex took place at various locations including in a shearer’s shed, a paddock, on the back of a ute and, on one occasion, at the girls’ grandparents house.
**The man told the court the sex was not about fulfilling his desires but about teaching his daughters how to behave for their husbands when they eventually married, as dictated in scripture.
**In sentencing, Judge David Lovell said the misrepresentation of scripture used to justify the abuse of the girls “defied belief”, and that he had “hypocritically betrayed” his religion and principles.
“You said the acts were about learning about sex rather than engaging in the acts of sex,” Judge Lovell said.
"I do not accept that.
“You treated your daughters as your property … using them to satisfy and gratify your sexual urges.”
Judge Lovell gave full credit for the man’s guilty pleas, saying he was genuinely remorseful and had a good chance of rehabilitation as his wife and the church remained supportive.:tsktsk:
The man will be eligible for parole in four years.
AAP
Are all Christians responsible for this? along with every other example of sexual abuse perpetrated by clergy?
Pastor had sex with daughters
August 30, 2007 - 5:37PM
A fundamentalist church pastor had sex with two of his teenage daughters to educate them on how to be good wives, a South Australian court has heard.
The 54-year-old man, who cannot be named, was today sentenced in the SA District Court to eight and a half years jail after pleading guilty to seven counts each of incest and unlawful sexual intercourse.
The court heard that the man had sex with his daughters for nearly a decade from 1991 when they were aged 13 and 15 at the family property.
The sex took place at various locations including in a shearer’s shed, a paddock, on the back of a ute and, on one occasion, at the girls’ grandparents house.
**The man told the court the sex was not about fulfilling his desires but about teaching his daughters how to behave for their husbands when they eventually married, as dictated in scripture.
**In sentencing, Judge David Lovell said the misrepresentation of scripture used to justify the abuse of the girls “defied belief”, and that he had “hypocritically betrayed” his religion and principles.
“You said the acts were about learning about sex rather than engaging in the acts of sex,” Judge Lovell said.
"I do not accept that.
“You treated your daughters as your property … using them to satisfy and gratify your sexual urges.”
Judge Lovell gave full credit for the man’s guilty pleas, saying he was genuinely remorseful and had a good chance of rehabilitation as his wife and the church remained supportive.:tsktsk:
The man will be eligible for parole in four years.
AAP
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Tracyms1974
Guest
I think you’re taking this a little hard.
If your daughter is Muslim, what is she doing in a Christmas Eve service? I’ll be danged if you would **ever **see me in a mosque, except maybe to take pictures.
Are Muslims like your daughter who choose not to take up the sword in the name of Allah really being true to their faith? To me, no offense, Muslims of this nature would actually make good Christians.
Tracy
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Montalban
Guest
Of course not. Unless you can find a causal link from the teachings of Christ.
Funny you should post that AFTER my post about Muhammed and his child-bride.
There now is a causal link.
Muhammed had relations with a child.
Moslems have said this is normal.
It continues today.
I guess being an Islamic apologist it is now in your realm to keep digging up singular examples such as the one you link above - and offer no such causal evidence whatsoever, whilst at the same time ignoring evidence presented to you.
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Montalban
Guest
I think so too. Now I’ve learnt this bit of information GraceSeeker appears to be defending a daugther’s choice more than anything else.
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Tracyms1974
Guest
You’re comparing apples and oranges.
This guy (forgot to look, sorry) said that Mohammed had sex with a child. Mohammed, a human being, FOUNDED Islam. There are cult leaders who have had sex with children, recall.
I would like to remind you that JESUS, the FOUNDER of Christianity had sex with NO ONE. He was 200% devoted to His work and His people. He was also both human and Divine, so obviously this helped Him not to sin in any way, shape or form. Sorry, but I’d rather follow this Guy, given the choice.
Priests who abuse children or break their vows of chastity are 100% human. Therefore, they, unlike Jesus, can sin. These priests are chastised just as anyone else is who does something wrong. My parish priest says that dirty priests are like dirty cops - there’s always going to be a few, but that shouldn’t keep you from trusting them by and large.
Tracy
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Montalban
Guest
Whilst it’s commendable (per se) to defend one’s daugther, it’s illogical to argue for Islam based on her singular example
It’s not polite to continue to down-play or ignore evidence of a general Islamic nature -that goes directly to addressing Islam as a whole
Sure there’s heaps of other Moslems who are nice people, but the faith as a whole ascribes to certain values. One of these is to place Muhammed as the ‘ideal-type’ of person.
And what sort of ideal did he present?
a) when in danger, he ran away - only to return later and systematically slaughter all those who had ever opposed him, in any form, including a woman who simply lampooned him with witty verses. He was a man of revenge
b) he over-saw the execution of 900 of the Banu Quaresh - he was not a man of mercy
c) he desired then had sex with a child - he was a man given over to his lusts
d) he personally lead, or encouraged war - and the extermination of pagan Arabs -he was not a man of peace
e) he encouraged people to lie, and his book “The Koran” shows a god that’s deceiving, unloving, and arbitrary in the application of mercy
the list could go on.
You’re daughter may personally have no ill-feelings towards anyone, but she’s signed up to a faith that holds as ideal a man who was evil
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