What Muslims are taught in their mosques - unbiased

[Contarini]

Slavery: Leviticus 25: 44-46; Exodus 21: 2-6. Exodus 21:7-11 lays down the law about how to sell your daughter into prostitution, and no, she doesn’t get to go free or into indenture after six years like a male Israelite slave would.

You need to defend your use of the word “prostitution.” “Concubinage” would be defensible. The OT makes it clear that a slave woman whose master engages in sexual intercourse with her cannot sell her to someone else but must give her the rights of a wife or else set her free.

Rape: the Israelites prefigured the ravishing of the Sabine women by Romans in Judges 21: 10-12, except they were picky and only ‘spared’ virgin girls; everybody else was slain. In Numbers 31: 14-18, God gets ticked off that the Israelites spared the Midianite women; through Moses, he orders that all of them who had not been deflowered at that point were to be killed, only the virgins left alive.

That sentence makes no sense (a woman who has been “deflowered” is not a virgin!). The point of that horrible story was that the women who were sexually experienced were collectively complicit in the seduction of Israelite men into idolatry, and so should be killed along with the Midianite men.

I am, of course, not disagreeing with your general point that taken literally there is much that is morally disturbing in the Bible!

Edwin

 

[Booklover]

You’re completely wrong. Incest, genocide, political assassination, polygamy, senseless slaughter, draconian punishments, and all manner of horror is not only in the Bible, it’s commanded, permitted, or in some cases even performed by your God who later got an engaged woman with child. And that doesn’t even go into the ‘ugly’ things present in the Bible that God could be bothered to take issue with: child sacrifice (although, in a certain perspective, what else was the crucifixion of Jesus than this?), adultery, rape, theft, blasphemy.

One who says the Bible is made of smiles, candy, puppies, sunshine, rainbows and unicorns hasn’t read it.

God had sex with Mary?? And you claim that you were once Catholic? You’re Muslim pure and simple! You were never Catholic and are just here to stir up trouble and get help from the PC crowd.

Vickie

 

[Contarini]

God had sex with Mary?? And you claim that you were once Catholic? You’re Muslim pure and simple! You were never Catholic and are just here to stir up trouble and get help from the PC crowd.

Vickie

Wow. You really do see Muslims everywhere.

Perhaps the emperor Nero was really a Muslim who stole a time travel machine and tried to wipe out Christianity in its cradle?

Edwin

 

[dolphinlove]

Wow. You really do see Muslims everywhere.

Perhaps the emperor Nero was really a Muslim who stole a time travel machine and tried to wipe out Christianity in its cradle?

Edwin

Its not a case of Vickie seeing muslims everywhere. I know exactly what she means by her post.
If you read of what some of Mirdath writes, it does seem she is only here to stir up things from the posters.

 

[Contarini]

Its not a case of Vickie seeing muslims everywhere. I know exactly what she means by her post.
If you read of what some of Mirdath writes, it does seem she is only here to stir up things from the posters.

Sure. But he’s doing so as an agnostic, not as a Muslim.

Edwin

 

[Booklover]

Sure. But he’s doing so as an agnostic, not as a Muslim.

Edwin

So what does this agnostic claim of his prove? Muslims are allowed to lie to protect or spread Islam.

Vickie

 

[dolphinlove]

Sure. But he’s doing so as an agnostic, not as a Muslim.

Edwin

Well I can speak for Vickie and for the way she views Mirdath.
As for me, its not about what she believes, but what she does to stir up people on this forum.

 

[Contarini]

So what does this agnostic claim of his prove? Muslims are allowed to lie to protect or spread Islam.

Vickie

First of all, this appears to be true of Shi’ites primarily, not Sunnis. In the second place, even if it were true, your argument would be logically flawed:

1. A person claiming not to be a Muslim may in fact be a Muslim
2. Mirdath claims to be an agnostic (and therefore not a Muslim)
3. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that he is a Muslim.

You need positive evidence that he is a Muslim. You apparently consider any statement that opposes your anti-Islamic arguments as evidence that the person making the statement is a Muslim. This is what I mean by “seeing Muslims everywhere.” You discount the very real possibility that many people who are not Muslims may disagree with some of the things you say about Islam.

Since I know that I am not a Muslim, and I disagree with many of the things you say, I know how false this argument is. But of course this will not convince you, since for all you know I could be a Muslim as well. You have painted yourself into a paranoid corner in which theoretically anyone could be a Muslim. This is a pretty miserable way to live. It fits Chesterton’s definition of insanity–it’s logically unassailable, but it shuts you up in a sort of mental prison.

Edwin

 

[Booklover]

You are shifting the ground. You said originally that Muslims are in the news committing atrocities, and therefore Islam can’t be a religion of peace. Now you are making a completely different comparison.

You will get no argument out of me on the proposition that the character and teaching of Christ are immeasurably superior to that of Muhammad!

Edwin

He made a remark and I responded to it! Period.

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

First of all, this appears to be true of Shi’ites primarily, not Sunnis. In the second place, even if it were true, your argument would be logically flawed:

1. A person claiming not to be a Muslim may in fact be a Muslim
2. Mirdath claims to be an agnostic (and therefore not a Muslim)
3. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that he is a Muslim.

You need positive evidence that he is a Muslim. You apparently consider any statement that opposes your anti-Islamic arguments as evidence that the person making the statement is a Muslim. This is what I mean by “seeing Muslims everywhere.” You discount the very real possibility that many people who are not Muslims may disagree with some of the things you say about Islam.

Since I know that I am not a Muslim, and I disagree with many of the things you say, I know how false this argument is. But of course this will not convince you, since for all you know I could be a Muslim as well. You have painted yourself into a paranoid corner in which theoretically anyone could be a Muslim. This is a pretty miserable way to live. It fits Chesterton’s definition of insanity–it’s logically unassailable, but it shuts you up in a sort of mental prison.

Edwin

So now you’re resorting to insults!

Vickie

 

[Contarini]

So now you’re resorting to insults!

Vickie

I am making a substantive point. If you choose to reject Chesterton’s description of insanity, you are welcome to do so. But your posts fit his description–you are arguing in a circle that cannot be rationally broken, because you can explain any apparently contrary evidence as the result of Islamic lies.

Edwin

 

[Booklover]

I am making a substantive point. If you choose to reject Chesterton’s description of insanity, you are welcome to do so. But your posts fit his description–you are arguing in a circle that cannot be rationally broken, because you can explain any apparently contrary evidence as the result of Islamic lies.

Edwin

The same argument you’re using against me can also be used against Islam!

The Quran is the word of God.

How do you know that?

Muhammad said so.

How do you know that Muhammad is the prophet of God?

The Quran says so.

Vickie

 

[Contarini]

The same argument you’re using against me can also be used against Islam!

It’s not an argument. My point is that your position is logically unassailable. Similarly, if I were to say that George W. Bush is an alien from another galaxy, this would not be logically disprovable. One could simply ask whether there was sufficient evidence to support such a speculation. And I could respond that the Bush administration is suppressing the evidence. This is unanswerable. There’s just no good reason for a sane person to believe it.

Postulating that Mirdath is a Muslim is not as crazy as that, admittedly, but it’s similarly unwarranted. You are violating Occam’s Razor–so I guess your position is logically assailable in a sense, and Chesterton was wrong (not for the first time).

Edwin

 

[Mirdath]

You need to defend your use of the word “prostitution.” “Concubinage” would be defensible. The OT makes it clear that a slave woman whose master engages in sexual intercourse with her cannot sell her to someone else but must give her the rights of a wife or else set her free.

True. ‘Prostitution’ is the nice word – and inaccurate, since it implies that she makes a profit from it. How about ‘sex slavery’?

That sentence makes no sense (a woman who has been “deflowered” is not a virgin!). The point of that horrible story was that the women who were sexually experienced were collectively complicit in the seduction of Israelite men into idolatry, and so should be killed along with the Midianite men.

Extra ‘not’ :doh2: But as I recall, that wasn’t the point of that particular horrible story: nice married (Midianite to Midianite) women were somehow complicit in seducing Israelite men? I don’t see that being the case. Any woman who was not a virgin was killed, wicked temptress or no.

Booklover:

God had sex with Mary??

I said ‘got her with child’. You believe that, don’t you? Whether he did so by a miracle or by a slightly more mundane method I do not know, nor do I care to speculate. The point is that she was engaged to someone who was most manifestly not God, and got pregnant out of wedlock by someone else.

You’re Muslim pure and simple! You were never Catholic and are just here to stir up trouble and get help from the PC crowd.

Contarini:

1. A person claiming not to be a Muslim may in fact be a Muslim
2. Mirdath claims to be an agnostic (and therefore not a Muslim)
3. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that he is a Muslim.

Edwin, I love you for this

 

[Booklover]

It’s not an argument. My point is that your position is logically unassailable. Similarly, if I were to say that George W. Bush is an alien from another galaxy, this would not be logically disprovable. One could simply ask whether there was sufficient evidence to support such a speculation. And I could respond that the Bush administration is suppressing the evidence. This is unanswerable. There’s just no good reason for a sane person to believe it.

Postulating that Mirdath is a Muslim is not as crazy as that, admittedly, but it’s similarly unwarranted. You are violating Occam’s Razor–so I guess your position is logically assailable in a sense, and Chesterton was wrong (not for the first time).

Edwin

Are you reappraising your position now and saying my statement is not so crazy?

The reason I made that statement about Mirdath is because I’ve seen the same arguments used by Islamic apologists on these forums for too long not to recognize the formula by now. His way of using “your God” when referring to the God in the OT is also used extensively by Muslims when claiming that God in the OT is more violent than Allah. They keep insisting that Allah is the God of Abraham but then disown him when convenient. (Circular reasoning?)

Enough with the cheap insults, please!

Vickie

 

[Contarini]

Are you reappraising your position now and saying my statement is not so crazy?

It still fits Chesterton’s definition of insanity. But Chesterton didn’t take into account Occam’s Razor, which militates against paranoid conspiracy theories.

The reason I made that statement about Mirdath is because I’ve seen the same arguments used by Islamic apologists on these forums for too long not to recognize the formula by now.

Well, this proves my point. You only think about Muslims, so you see Muslims anywhere. This language is typical of secular opponents of Christianity, not peculiar to Muslims at all. That’s what I mean by violating Occam’s razor. We have two groups of people who use this kind of argument; Mirdath says he belongs to one and not the other; and we have no reason to disbelieve him.

Edwin

 

[Grace_Seeker]

OK. I tried, but I just couldn’t stomach reading this thread. I doubt if anyone left in this “discussion” (and that is using the term generously) will get this, but if you want to know what Muslims are taught in their mosques, go to one. They have their main time of prayers on Friday evening. Most also have classes other days during the week. My experience is that one will get a warm reception, and time has taught me that these receptions have been sincere, not just because I was a visitor or a false front put on for the general public.

If you travel the globe, most certainly you will find some mosques that preach hate not peace. But I once experienced that as a protestant attending a Catholic church in Louisiana. I think that you will find this to be the exception, not the rule, in Islam just like it is in Catholicism. But again, if you want to find out what is actually being taught there, just attend. Women should cover their heads, everyone take off your shoes, get in line appropriate to your gender and pray. You don’t have to verbalize a Muslim prayer, but just pray to God who is every bit as much present in a mosque as in a church (or a field or any other place). And then when it is time for the sermon, listen. Don’t make a big deal out of your first experience, but go back a couple of more times and see what you take away from it. My guess is that you will find that the issues important to and addressed by Muslims in their mosques are the same that non-Muslims of other faiths care about to. They care about how to raise their families to righteous living in an increasingly secular society. They care abuot how to live faithful lives themselves. They care about knowing that they can truly depend on the God they worship in the difficult situations they find themvles in life that try one’s faith such as illness, family turmoil, loss of jobs, and a world at war. Some of their ideas on how those answer are best achieved might be different. Rather than relying on the grace of God as being sufficient, Muslims will often encourage works of faith, especially the saying of certain prayers, as a response.

The month of Ramandan is approaching. Those who are really serious about knowing what takes place inside a mosque might find this a particularly good time to investigate.

 

[Mirdath]

The reason I made that statement about Mirdath is because I’ve seen the same arguments used by Islamic apologists on these forums for too long not to recognize the formula by now. His way of using “your God” when referring to the God in the OT is also used extensively by Muslims when claiming that God in the OT is more violent than Allah. They keep insisting that Allah is the God of Abraham but then disown him when convenient. (Circular reasoning?)

I say ‘your God’ because he is not my God; I do not worship any deity, whether his name be four letters long or five. Nor have I claimed to do so.

Contarini, I’d hope not to be labeled an opponent of either Christianity or Islam – I have little against either faith (though to be perfectly honest, a good deal more against some of their followers) and I have no interest in stamping either out. As I am interested in fomenting universal brotherhood and peace, however, I feel called to defend points of view I do not hold when they are unjustly attacked. Christianity does not exactly suffer from that problem on CAF, nor does it have any dearth of defenders; other faiths, and Islam in particular, are not so fortunate here.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

First of all, this appears to be true of Shi’ites primarily, not Sunnis.

That is just untrue. Sure the Shias have a doctrine of taqiyya, but the Sunnis also condone lying in certain circumstances.

The murder of Ka’ab bin al-Ashraf where Muhammad gave permission to lie is reported in Sunni, not Shia, hadiths. Bukhari, Volume 5, #369

This is what Ibn Taymiyya, a Sufi or Sunni theologian and teacher of Ibn Kathir, wrote:
“Lying against an individual is completely forbidden, regardless if he is a Muslim, a disbeliever or an evil sinner. However, fabricating a lie against a believer is more severe. In spite of all forms of lying on someone is forbidden, it is allowable during times of a legitimate necessity.” Majmoo’at-ur-Rasaa’il wal-Masaa’il (5/105)
muttaqun.com/lying.html

The Shias hate Ibn Taymiyya and he hated them in return.

Imam al-Ghazali, a major Sunni theologian, had this to say:
" When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible " (Ref: Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller , Amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Contarini:

In the second place, even if it were true, your argument would be logically flawed:

1. A person claiming not to be a Muslim may in fact be a Muslim
2. Mirdath claims to be an agnostic (and therefore not a Muslim)
3. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that he is a Muslim.

You need positive evidence that he is a Muslim. You apparently consider any statement that opposes your anti-Islamic arguments as evidence that the person making the statement is a Muslim. This is what I mean by “seeing Muslims everywhere.” You discount the very real possibility that many people who are not Muslims may disagree with some of the things you say about Islam.

It was an opinion - nothing more based on suspicion. What do you want now? A certificate?

Since I know that I am not a Muslim, and I disagree with many of the things you say, I know how false this argument is. But of course this will not convince you, since for all you know I could be a Muslim as well. You have painted yourself into a paranoid corner in which theoretically anyone could be a Muslim. This is a pretty miserable way to live. It fits Chesterton’s definition of insanity–it’s logically unassailable, but it shuts you up in a sort of mental prison.

Edwin

Can you please cut the insults? Are you a qualified psychiatrist or just a quack?

 

[famdigy]

OK. I tried, but I just couldn’t stomach reading this thread. I doubt if anyone left in this “discussion” (and that is using the term generously) will get this, but if you want to know what Muslims are taught in their mosques, go to one. They have their main time of prayers on Friday evening. Most also have classes other days during the week. My experience is that one will get a warm reception, and time has taught me that these receptions have been sincere, not just because I was a visitor or a false front put on for the general public.

If you travel the globe, most certainly you will find some mosques that preach hate not peace. But I once experienced that as a protestant attending a Catholic church in Louisiana. I think that you will find this to be the exception, not the rule, in Islam just like it is in Catholicism. But again, if you want to find out what is actually being taught there, just attend. Women should cover their heads, everyone take off your shoes, get in line appropriate to your gender and pray. You don’t have to verbalize a Muslim prayer, but just pray to God who is every bit as much present in a mosque as in a church (or a field or any other place). And then when it is time for the sermon, listen. Don’t make a big deal out of your first experience, but go back a couple of more times and see what you take away from it. My guess is that you will find that the issues important to and addressed by Muslims in their mosques are the same that non-Muslims of other faiths care about to. They care about how to raise their families to righteous living in an increasingly secular society. They care abuot how to live faithful lives themselves. They care about knowing that they can truly depend on the God they worship in the difficult situations they find themvles in life that try one’s faith such as illness, family turmoil, loss of jobs, and a world at war. Some of their ideas on how those answer are best achieved might be different. Rather than relying on the grace of God as being sufficient, Muslims will often encourage works of faith, especially the saying of certain prayers, as a response.

The month of Ramandan is approaching. Those who are really serious about knowing what takes place inside a mosque might find this a particularly good time to investigate.

Thank you Grace. This post was much needed here. God bless.