What Muslims are taught in their mosques - unbiased

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

There is nothing sacred about Ramadan. It is the killing month in Iraq. It is also the month Muhammad supposedly received his first revelation from Jibril and the month he conquered Mecca.

But many Muslims today have fear of Ramadan - for this is the month that Muslim terrorists are most active in Iraq. It’s to do with the congregation of worshippers, I believe. The place becomes more ‘target-rich’.

 

[famdigy]

Ofcourse there is nothing sacred about the month of Ramadan from a non-muslim point of view. But it is very sacred to Muslims.

Ramadhan is the month in which All of God’s heavenly books were revealed to mankind. The scriptures of Abaham, The psalms of David, the Torah, the Gospels and the Quran all descended in the month of Ramadhan. Source: Kulayni, al-kafi vol.2 page 628

The month of Ramadhan contains “the night of power” where worshiping in this one night is greater than worshiping for 1000 consecutive months.Source: (Quran 97) & kulayni, al-kafi vol.4 page 60.

Rewards are multiplied in the month of Ramadan, whomever performs an obligatory worship receives the rewards of 70 acts of worship. Source: kulayni, al-kafi vol.4 page 66

In Ramadan the gates of heaven and mercy are opened, the gates of hell are closed and God replies to all prayers, and forgives anyone who asks Him for forgiveness. Source: kulayni, al-kafi vol.4 page 67

I could go on and on. It is a sacred month for all Muslims and there couldn’t be a better time to visit a mosque.

 

[Montalban]

There is a lot more in the Bible than the teachings of Jesus.

For Christians the teachings of Jesus is all there is.

That is the basic fallacy in what you are saying.

It’s not a fallacy because you’re trying to use ‘examples’ Christians don’t follow and blame Christianity for those. It’s you following a fallacy, not I.

To make the Bible teach total non-violence, you have to adopt a hermeneutic in which the Sermon on the Mount is key to everything else.

No. Jesus was continually non-violent not just restricted to one lesson. Try again!

If you give the OT equal importance with the NT, you wind up justifying all sorts of religious violence. If you privilege Paul, you get something else again.

Now you state the reason you’re argument is false!

The same is true of the Qur’an. The view that has dominated Islam historically, and that on the whole you and other anti-Islamic Christians refer to as the true Islamic position (though you ignore the places where Bin Laden and other radical Muslims today depart from this historic consensus), holds as I understand it that the Medina suras trump the Meccan ones. ]

That’s what most Moslems believe; abrogation. Try again!

Moderate Muslims do the opposite.

No they don’t. Moderate Moslems ignore the calls to violence because they choose to live peacefully. It’s the same internal justification that a gay Catholic might adopt in order to justify his staying with the church.

Again, it’s a question of hermeneutics. There is a spectrum of interpretation in both Islam and Christianity, but since the Bible is far more diverse than the Qur’an the spectrum is much wider in Christianity, and the Bible is certainly much easier to interpret in a non-violent way than the Qur’an (and by and large, harder to interpret, taken as a whole, as sanctioning ruthless violence, though there are certainly passages that could be and have been used that way).

Edwin

Go read Bostom’s *The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims *where he catalogues Islamic opinion on Jihad over the four major schools, even the Sufis are cited - over the life of Islam.

 

[fatma]

First of all, this appears to be true of Shi’ites primarily, not Sunnis. In the second place, even if it were true, your argument would be logically flawed:

1. A person claiming not to be a Muslim may in fact be a Muslim
2. Mirdath claims to be an agnostic (and therefore not a Muslim)
3. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that he is a Muslim.

You need positive evidence that he is a Muslim. You apparently consider any statement that opposes your anti-Islamic arguments as evidence that the person making the statement is a Muslim. This is what I mean by “seeing Muslims everywhere.” You discount the very real possibility that many people who are not Muslims may disagree with some of the things you say about Islam.

Since I know that I am not a Muslim, and I disagree with many of the things you say, I know how false this argument is. But of course this will not convince you, since for all you know I could be a Muslim as well. You have painted yourself into a paranoid corner in which theoretically anyone could be a Muslim. This is a pretty miserable way to live. It fits Chesterton’s definition of insanity–it’s logically unassailable, but it shuts you up in a sort of mental prison.

Edwin

Santa Claus is a muslim too!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Santa Claus is a muslim too!

Don’t be silly. Contarini is merely engaging in sophistry. Vickie did not say that anyone who disagrees with her is a Muslim. That’s just Contarini putting words in people’s mouths.

 

[Booklover]

I say ‘your God’ because he is not my God; I do not worship any deity, whether his name be four letters long or five. Nor have I claimed to do so.

Suit yourself!

Contarini, I’d hope not to be labeled an opponent of either Christianity or Islam – I have little against either faith (though to be perfectly honest, a good deal more against some of their followers) and I have no interest in stamping either out.

Really? You claim to be “neutral” but your posts are nothing of the sort! Why is that??

As I am interested in fomenting universal brotherhood and peace, however, I feel called to defend points of view I do not hold when they are unjustly attacked.

What universal brotherhood are you trying to foment by your posts? So your point of view is the only one that is correct and everyone who does not hold the same ideas you do is wrong?

Christianity does not exactly suffer from that problem on CAF, nor does it have any dearth of defenders;

Why should it? In case you’ve forgotten, this a Catholic Christian site, and since you appear to be myopic when it comes to comments made by Muslims, we spend a lot of time defending our beliefs against their attacks.

other faiths, and Islam in particular, are not so fortunate here.

How can you possibly say that, with Contarini on the job!

Vickie

 

[Mirdath]

Really? You claim to be “neutral” but your posts are nothing of the sort! Why is that??

Why should I stand idly by and let you run off at the mouth about the evils of a particular faith unchallenged? I have no stake either in it or in your religion, but I do not have any reason to wish the smarmy slander that seems to be your stock in trade on anyone, and plenty of reason to want it to stop.

I have to wonder, Vickie, just why you are so obsessed with Islam. I think I may have seen one or two posts of yours that didn’t concern it. Are you so assured of your own salvation by now that the only thing left to do is criticize others?

What universal brotherhood are you trying to foment by your posts? So your point of view is the only one that is correct and everyone who does not hold the same ideas you do is wrong?

Nope, it’s just you I want, at the end of the day, for any two people to be able to sit down and talk about their beliefs, then get up, shake hands, and go away thinking highly of each other. You want to see the end of Islam (and potentially the end of every faith other than Catholicism), if I’m not mistaken. These two goals are just a little incompatible.

Why should it? In case you’ve forgotten, this a Catholic Christian site, and since you appear to be myopic when it comes to comments made by Muslims, we spend a lot of time defending our beliefs against their attacks.

Even these are dwarfed by the unprovoked attacks Catholics make on Islam – of which efforts you have authored many yourself. I actually see Muslim posters dragging up atrocities out of the Bible quite rarely; Catholics, it seems, regularly scan the Quran for ammunition.

How can you possibly say that, with Contarini on the job!

And believe me, I thank him most gratefully for his efforts!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Mirdath:

slan·der (slndr)
n.

1. Law Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person’s reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

You have to prove falsehood. So far you haven’t.
Mirdaht:

unprovoked attacks Catholics make on Islam

You mean like this?

Thousands Protest Egypt's Neglect of Coptic Persecution

Hundreds to thousands of Coptic demonstrators in the Egyptian provinces of Cairo, el-Minia, el-Behara and Assiut gathered Dec 5-6 to protest the recent escalation in anti-Coptic hate crimes and the

www.christianpost.com

In the most recent incident, Wafaa Constantine Messiha, the wife of a Coptic priest, was reportedly abducted and forced to convert to Islam.

“Muslims are regularly attacking Copts, and they kidnapped the wife of a priest to force her to convert to Islam,” Zaki stated.

According to sources, the on-going two-day protest is a response to the Egyptian government’s sanction of anti-Coptic hate crimes such as arson, torture, murder, and the abduction, rape, and forced conversion of young Coptic women.

Other crimes protested by the Coptic community included the rise in the kidnapping, rape, and forced conversion of young Coptic women such as 19-year old Manal Gurguis Abd El Malak, whose kidnappers have yet to face justice due to discriminatory police neglect.

Note: paras not in original order.

Are these the unprovoked attacks on Muslims you were referring to?

You mean unprovoked attacks like this?

Quran 9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Hilali/Khan)

 

[Mirdath]

You have to prove falsehood. So far you haven’t.

Right from my first post I showed that Islam is just as much a religion of peace as Christianity is a religion of love, contrary to Booklover’s claims. Later, she claimed that a Catholic and an agnostic were actually Muslim conspirators, lying and conniving – and given my ten-month-long posting career here, do you really have any reason to doubt I’m anything other than what I say I am?

Are these the unprovoked attacks on Muslims you were referring to?

I was referring – quite clearly and explicitly, I might add – to posts on CAF, nothing more. Kindly refrain from twisting my words.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I too find many non-Muslims who unknowingly or knowingly apologize for Muslims and Islam.

This mantra that not all Muslims are terrorists so they must be peaceful and good is nothing short of ignorance to someone like me who’s lived in Islamic countries and experienced at first hand what those ‘peaceful and good’ Muslims do to non-Muslims.

Just because most Muslims do not kill non-Muslims does not mean they’re peaceful and good. Each and every one of those ‘peaceful and good’ Muslims have no problems, no problems at all, with discriminating against and oppressing non-Muslims.

Do people think that the peaceful and good Muslims of Egypt are ashamed of and against the centuries-long persecution of Copts? No. They think the Copts get what they deserve.

Do people think the peaceful and good Muslims of Syria are against the persecution of Assyrian Christians? No. They think the assyrian Christians get what they deserve.

It is the same the Islamic world over. Pakistani Muslims have no problems at all with forcibly converting Christians, including kidnapping and raping young Christian girls to force them to convert to Islam.

Recently Bangladeshi Muslims have been going on a forcible conversion program to force converts to Christianity back to Islam. These peaceful and good Muslims kidnap Christians, take them back to the mosques and make them sign declarations of conversion back to Islam.

You have to understand the Muslims - their sense of morality, right and wrong, comes straight out of the Quran and the Sunnah. If Muhammad told them to do something - it must be moral and good. Hence it is moral and good to persecute Christians because Muhammad said so. They see NOTHING WRONG with that.

Please don’t project your Western Christian sensibilities on Muslims. Their perspective is different from yours.

Back to the topic:
Mirdath,
I merely pointed out that when you accuse someone of slander you had better show that they have lied.

I also find the accusation of ‘unprovoked attacks’ on Islam and Muslims to be condemnable because all we do here is post messages. If you want to talk about ‘unprovoked attacks’ at least walk a mile in the shoes of the true persecuted Christians living in horrendous persecution in Islamic countries according to the teachings of the Islamic Allah.

Hence I showed you what ‘unprovoked attacks’ really mean. Just to bring some perspective back to the table.

Thanks,
Rodrigo

 

[dessert]

Right from my first post I showed that Islam is just as much a religion of peace as Christianity is a religion of love, contrary to Booklover’s claims. Later, she claimed that a Catholic and an agnostic were actually Muslim conspirators, lying and conniving – and given my ten-month-long posting career here, do you really have any reason to doubt I’m anything other than what I say I am?
I say what are you? Who do you say you are?
Agnostic; I’m not saying that I do believe that there is a God, but
I didn’t say I don’t ither.

I was referring – quite clearly and explicitly, I might add – to posts on CAF, nothing more. Kindly refrain from twisting my words

**Be more concerned with what God thinks about you than what people think about you.**Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said,“We ought to obey God rather than men.”
Acts 5; 29.

Dessert

 

[Mirdath]

Just because most Muslims do not kill non-Muslims does not mean they’re peaceful and good. Each and every one of those ‘peaceful and good’ Muslims have no problems, no problems at all, with discriminating against and oppressing non-Muslims.

Has anybody said that? Muslims are just as human as Catholics, with all that entails.

Do people think that the peaceful and good Muslims of Egypt are ashamed of and against the centuries-long persecution of Copts? No. They think the Copts get what they deserve.

Do people think the peaceful and good Muslims of Syria are against the persecution of Assyrian Christians? No. They think the assyrian Christians get what they deserve.

I have seen Catholics here defend the barbarity of the Inquisitions – the victims ‘got what they deserved’. I have seen the papal legate’s extermination of the Cathars, down to the last child, defended as those people getting what they had coming to them. I have seen the atrocities committed by Christians during the Crusades portrayed as the wrath of God, just and mighty, and the opposing armies and civilians as its proper targets.

You Catholics are no better than they.

I merely pointed out that when you accuse someone of slander you had better show that they have lied.

And I have done so.

I also find the accusation of ‘unprovoked attacks’ on Islam and Muslims to be condemnable because all we do here is post messages. If you want to talk about ‘unprovoked attacks’ at least walk a mile in the shoes of the true persecuted Christians living in horrendous persecution in Islamic countries according to the teachings of the Islamic Allah.

Hence I showed you what ‘unprovoked attacks’ really mean. Just to bring some perspective back to the table.

Every little thing adds to the pile. Don’t excuse your ugliness by trying to show me someone uglier than you. If you claim to follow Jesus, then follow him, and don’t try to handwave a billion people away as deluded and evil. Exercise charity and show love in all things, and especially towards those you for any reason, no matter how mistaken, consider enemies. Your disingenuous blather isn’t fooling anyone, except possibly yourself.

dessert:

Be more concerned with what God thinks about you than what people think about you.Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said,“We ought to obey God rather than men.”

I am not particularly concerned with what a deity I neither worship nor believe in thinks of me.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Mirdath:

Rodrigo:

Just because most Muslims do not kill non-Muslims does not mean they’re peaceful and good. Each and every one of those ‘peaceful and good’ Muslims have no problems, no problems at all, with discriminating against and oppressing non-Muslims.

Has anybody said that? Muslims are just as human as Catholics, with all that entails.

Yes. Even in this thread I think there are people who claim this.

Mirdath:

Rodrigo:

Do people think that the peaceful and good Muslims of Egypt are ashamed of and against the centuries-long persecution of Copts? No. They think the Copts get what they deserve.

Do people think the peaceful and good Muslims of Syria are against the persecution of Assyrian Christians? No. They think the assyrian Christians get what they deserve.

I have seen Catholics here defend the barbarity of the Inquisitions – the victims ‘got what they deserved’. I have seen the papal legate’s extermination of the Cathars, down to the last child, defended as those people getting what they had coming to them. I have seen the atrocities committed by Christians during the Crusades portrayed as the wrath of God, just and mighty, and the opposing armies and civilians as its proper targets.

You Catholics are no better than they.

Is that not a tu quoque you’re about to accuse me of committing in your response below?

Mirdath:

Rodrigo:

I merely pointed out that when you accuse someone of slander you had better show that they have lied.

And I have done so.

That’s not evident to me, I’m afraid.

Mirdath:

Rodrigo:

I also find the accusation of ‘unprovoked attacks’ on Islam and Muslims to be condemnable because all we do here is post messages. If you want to talk about ‘unprovoked attacks’ at least walk a mile in the shoes of the true persecuted Christians living in horrendous persecution in Islamic countries according to the teachings of the Islamic Allah.

Hence I showed you what ‘unprovoked attacks’ really mean. Just to bring some perspective back to the table.

Every little thing adds to the pile. Don’t excuse your ugliness by trying to show me someone uglier than you. If you claim to follow Jesus, then follow him, and don’t try to handwave a billion people away as deluded and evil. Exercise charity and show love in all things, and especially towards those you for any reason, no matter how mistaken, consider enemies. Your disingenuous blather isn’t fooling anyone, except possibly yourself.

Sorry but I am not ugly and my criticism of Islam is not ugly. Do you consider fighting against evil and injustice to be ugly?

How do you show charity and love towards evil?

Whatever I’m doing is definitely heart-felt and honest, and not disingenuous. I am against Islam 100% because I recognize that it is an evil theology.

By the way to all Christians who sympathize with Islam – there is only one theology that specifically oppresses Christians. Do you know the name of this religion of peace? Let me give you a hint – the name has five letters, beginning with I and ending with M, and rhymes with slam.

How do you absolve 1.2 billion Muslims for condoning, supporting, perpetuating and teaching an ideology that ‘hates the infidels’? It is like absolving Nazis for believing in Nazism. Muslims have the free choice to believe in this ‘hate the infidels’ ideology or apostatize. If they choose the former, then they must bear some of the responsibility.

This ‘hate the infidels’ ideology can only perpetuate itself with the tacit support of Muslims.

 

[jedi]

Rodrigo Bivar i agreed… what Rodrigo say is Truth… no doubt…
Bangladeshi Muslims have been going on a forcible conversion program to force converts to Christianity back to Islam, not only bangladeshi but most of the muslim country also practice this force converts… you convert or you die…

if i having this kind of situation… i will say…“I LOVE YOU JESUS CHRIST, I ALWAYS LOVE YOU”…

God bless the minority Catholics especially in asian country…

 

[Montalban]

Every little thing adds to the pile. Don’t excuse your ugliness by trying to show me someone uglier than you. If you claim to follow Jesus, then follow him, and don’t try to handwave a billion people away as deluded and evil. Exercise charity and show love in all things, and especially towards those you for any reason, no matter how mistaken, consider enemies. Your disingenuous blather isn’t fooling anyone, except possibly yourself.

When someone points out an evil, they’re branded as evil! The world’s really screwy!

 

[fatma]

Yes let’s just recap on the arguments against islam on this thread:

Salaam fellow lovers of Jesus (pbuh)! Although I don’t agree with Muhammed (swt) I’d like to address a few misconceptions about Islam.

I’m not here to promote Islam but if you look at this site (insert site by some Mufti) you’ll see that you’re greatly misinformed about this very peaceful (and really honest) religion…

etc…

May your camel always spit dates
-Max Klinger (Cpl.) 4077th MAS*H

Sarcasm

Yes, on another site discussing religion and ethics there was quite a lot of Islamo-infantalism … forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

putdowns

No im not saying they are purely evil at all, what im saying here is she has been listening to what muslims themselves say about their religion, in which they have been know to twist the truth. …
.

??? muslims are all liars???

Certainly Islam is evil.
Can we not judge, for instance, Nazis by Nazi ideology? (even though not all Nazis killed Jews).

…
It’s our God given dignity of all things good to try to destroy all non-catholic belief structures. …We cant be a practising catholic if we let heathens even think for a moment that we respect their religion, … and just dont even think about calling aussies bigots here either, there are too many of us here to back each other up to let that go unanswered.
God Bless.

I have never encountered these sentiments from catholic teaching. Someone who is intolerant on the basis of religion is a bigot. I believe that i said that in response to a quote that declared that islam turns people into liars.

…
Islam was invented by essentially a caravan-raider.

Insults

… You’re Muslim pure and simple! You were never Catholic and are just here to stir up trouble and get help from the PC crowd.

Vickie

So now you’re resorting to insults!

Vickie

There is nothing sacred about Ramadan. It is the killing month in Iraq.

Disrespectful

As for the people who decided that I was a muslim because i didn’t agree with their attitudes, well that just supports Contarini’s argument that some people are seeing muslims everywhere. It would seem that some people need to prove another religion wrong to sustain their own faith. They are defining themselves and their faith by being reactionary. I believe that catholicism stands alone, it is not necessary to prove anything else wrong or evil. It is not to be defined in opposition to Islam or any other religion. The people that feel the need to attack Islam with insults and sarcasm, to prop up their own faith are the people that are living in fear.IMO, living in fear shows a distinct lack of faith in a loving and benevolent god.

 

[Palladio]

You have not a few put downs in your own rambling post which quotes out of context (all very charitable) and end with grand bit of wisdom having no basis in fact or the Bible: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov. 1:7).

Muslims everywhere?

No, and that’s why we are talking about them, to see what there is to see, to exchange frank views, to show up the clowning, like your own, on the internet and media that poses as serious discussion.

 

[edwinmvibar]

Dear Fatma:

   I do not know what to talk about.

   Maybe I should talk about my relationship with everyone regardless of his or her religion although I am a Catholic.

   I think I should live by the code "Laisses Faire', or "live and let live." I have known about this since I was a kid and I think it is a universal truth no matter who you might be.

   I say no more at this ppoint.

 

[Booklover]

Why should I stand idly by and let you run off at the mouth about the evils of a particular faith unchallenged? I have no stake either in it or in your religion, but I do not have any reason to wish the smarmy slander that seems to be your stock in trade on anyone, and plenty of reason to want it to stop.

I simply made a comment based on my observations of certain posts and you’ve blown it completely out of proportion!

I have to wonder, Vickie, just why you are so obsessed with Islam. I think I may have seen one or two posts of yours that didn’t concern it. Are you so assured of your own salvation by now that the only thing left to do is criticize others?

Not that it’s any of your concern, but I became interested in Islam only after 9/11. I hadn’t the slightest interest in it before and wouldn’t now but for the fact that I believe it’s the greatest threat facing our civilization today.

Your other comment does not even deserve a reply. Sour grapes!

Nope, it’s just you I want, at the end of the day, for any two people to be able to sit down and talk about their beliefs, then get up, shake hands, and go away thinking highly of each other. You want to see the end of Islam (and potentially the end of every faith other than Catholicism), if I’m not mistaken. These two goals are just a little incompatible.

Who’s slandering whom? I have never made such a remark!

Even these are dwarfed by the unprovoked attacks Catholics make on Islam – of which efforts you have authored many yourself. I actually see Muslim posters dragging up atrocities out of the Bible quite rarely; Catholics, it seems, regularly scan the Quran for ammunition.

And believe me, I thank him most gratefully for his efforts!

And I thank Montalban and Rodrigo for speaking out fearlessly against Islam!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Right from my first post I showed that Islam is just as much a religion of peace as Christianity is a religion of love, contrary to Booklover’s claims. Later, she claimed that a Catholic and an agnostic were actually Muslim conspirators, lying and conniving – and given my ten-month-long posting career here, do you really have any reason to doubt I’m anything other than what I say I am?

You’re ridiculous, and as mentioned before blowing this whole thing out of proportion. I made some comments, that’s all! I never accused you and Fatma of being conspirators for heaven’s sake! Get a grip on yourself! We all tend to take ourselves too seriously at times.

Vickie