What Muslims are taught in their mosques - unbiased

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You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Tracy
Sadly that’s the role of the Moslem apologist.

It’s a shame that Christians would seek to discredit Christianity with such singular examples of bad behaviour.

Jesus is our example. Not that pastor - though he should have been ‘an’ example
 
When you use the word “they” you are including my daughter who is Muslim.
While your daughter may be the paragon of tolerance and love of her fellow humans regardless of faith, creed, or denomination… I cannot apologize. Muslims have not apologized and they go to the extent of accusing us of being satanic…will the Ayatollah apologize for his actions and statements against my infant granddaughters and grandsons? No, he and the rest of islams clerics will not. Thus it is impertinent for you or anyone else to expect it of me.
 
That is simply not true. I can only spek for australia but time and time again muslim leaders speak out against terrorism. They do not get the same access to the media however the Sheik that has been referred to above is well known for his condemnation of terrorism along with every other leader from the community. Unfortunately this is never front page news because the media seems to overlook anything that the muslim community says. The muslim community has been responsible for all terrorism related arrests in australia. They have not sat on their hands and kept quiet at all.
Then they are to be commended for their positive actions. Your community needs to hound the press into making note of that fact.

On the other hand…perhaps someone should “clue in” the cleric about making wrongful statements in a western culture. 😃
 
She’s signed up to a faith that does this. If she doesn’t personally do it, great, but she’s supporting it by being a member of that group.

That doesn’t mean all Moslems are going to do this, but signing onto such a faith is to support that.
What do you mean she “signed up”?
While your daughter may be the paragon of tolerance and love of her fellow humans regardless of faith, creed, or denomination… I cannot apologize. Muslims have not apologized and they go to the extent of accusing us of being satanic…will the Ayatollah apologize for his actions and statements against my infant granddaughters and grandsons? No, he and the rest of islams clerics will not. Thus it is impertinent for you or anyone else to expect it of me.
I’m not asking you to apologize to the Ayatollah. I’m asking you to apologize to my daughter for the things you said about her which are simply untrue with regard to her.
 
The Ayatollah on Sex with Infants:

*"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives". *(Arabic Sourcehttp://www.al-shia.com/html/ara/books/tahrir/tahrir25.htm#a4 - 12th item under the title “Ketabonnekah”)
 
I’m not asking you to apologize to the Ayatollah. I’m asking you to apologize to my daughter for the things you said about her which are simply untrue with regard to her.
I said “NO”. When the Ayatollah’s and mullahs apologize for their hateful and wrongful statements that reflect on my grandchildren, I will return the favor. Everything ever said by any muslim about christians and Americans are simply untrue where my grandchildren are concerned.
 
Sura 5:51 and many others verses have given rise to cultural & religious divisions and this attitude is even applied today with the infamous and influential Muslim, Ayatollah Khomeini’s contempt for non-Muslims:

“There are eleven things which are impure: urine, excrement, sperm, bones, blood, dogs, pigs, non-Muslim men and women, wine, beer, and the sweat of the excrement-eating camel.Every part of the body of a non-Muslim individual is impure, even the hair on his hand and his body hair, his nails, and all the secretions of the body".

"Any man or woman who denies the existence of Allah, or believes in His partners [the Christian Trinity], or else does not believe in His Prophet Muhammad, is impure (in the same way as are excrement, urine, dog, and wine).
He is so even if he doubts any one of these principles".

"It is forbidden to touch a page of the Qur’an with anything impure; if such a thing should happen, the page must immediately be washed".

"One must avoid giving the Qur’an to an infidel; it is even recommended that it be forcibly taken away from him if he already has it in his hands”.

"***“In the same way that the messenger of God used to chop hands, cut throats, and stone people; in the same way that he massacred the Jews of Bani Qurayza because they were a bunch of discontented people. If the Prophet used to order to burn a house or exterminate a tribe, that was justice.” ***Khomeini.

al-shia.com/html/ara/books/tahrir/tahrir25.htm#a4
 
I said “no”. When the Ayatollah’s and mullahs apologize for their hateful and wrongful statements that reflect on my grandchildren, I will return the favor. Everything ever said by any muslim about christians and Americans are simply untrue where my grandchildren are concerned.
So, you will besmirch my daughter and her character because of the things another person has done or said?

You, sir, are a lout, a cad, a depraved human being. You yourself lack common decency. You soil the name of Christ by such behavior. You want an example of a person who injurs others and claims to do so as a representative of Christ, I encourage you to look into a mirror.

You have said that “Everything ever said by any muslim about christians and Americans are simply untrue where my grandchildren are concerned.” Well, again, my daughter has said that Americans are friendly and generous people. Her Muslim mother taught her that Christians are very caring people. If your grandchildren are Christians and Americans, you are saying that such statements are untrue where they are concerned. Thus you are saying that your grandchildren are not friendly, generous or caring. Interesting that such a statement would come from their grandfather, not a Muslim.
 
Hey, Grace Seeker.
Code:
 It says on your public profile that you are a United Methodist preacher.  Aren't you on the wrong side of the fence in this argument?  I'm sure your daughter doesn't say bad things about you - you're her mother.  But to those Islamic nuts we are speaking of, YOU are the infidel.  YOU, my friend.  Are you actually defending their right to call you an infidel and possibly, given the chance, kill you for it?  Would you want one of those nuts in your house *right now*?  Go ahead - invite them over for coffee and cookies and we'll see if you're here next week to post anything else.
Tracy
 
***“when judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire.” ***(Mishkat Al-Masabih, vol. 2, no.5552)

Furthermore, how did the second most authoritative Muslim think about Christians?

Abd Allah ibn Sa’ed (Omr ibn al-Khatab servant) said: “Arab Christians are not Christians, I am not leaving them until they become Muslims or I cut their throats.” (Kanzu ‘umal – al mutka al hindi – vol. 4, No. 11770) Omar ibn al-Khatab (the second caliph)

What does the Saudi Education teach on Christians & Jews

Jews and Christians - Cursed by Allah and Turned into Apes and Pigs: A textbook for 8th grade students explains why Jews and Christians were cursed by Allah and turned into apes and pigs. Quoting Surat Al-Maida, Verse 60, the lesson explains that Jews and Christians have sinned by accepting polytheism and therefore incurred Allah’s wrath. To punish them, Allah has turned them into apes and pigs. www.teachkidspeace.org/doc3516.php (Source: Sharh Kitab Al-Tawheed for 8th grade (2001), p.43)

Even the Qur’an alludes to the fact that Muslims are to not befriend Jews or Christians.

*“O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is one of them. Allah guideth not a people unjust." *Sura 5:51
 
What do you mean she “signed up”?
It’s a loose way of saying she’s now joined up to a belief-system that I find abhorrent.
I’m not asking you to apologize to the Ayatollah. I’m asking you to apologize to my daughter for the things you said about her which are simply untrue with regard to her.
I think you’re taking what he said way to personally.

Why not step back for a moment and deal with some of the facts presented - in your own time, of course.
 
So, you will besmirch my daughter and her character because of the things another person has done or said?
I don’t think you’re getting the subtle argument being presented.

Islam is evil - that’s borne out by the fact (which you’re ignoring).

Not everyone who’s Moslem is a practioner of all that is evil in Islam.

However, they must *support *it, else they’d not be Moslem.

Think of it this way. In Germany in the 1930s a person may not have personally had anything against the Jews, but may have joined up with the Nazi Party - for whatever reasons; job enhancement, social pressures, etc.

This doesn’t mean that person is directly responsible for the deaths of 6,000,000 Jews, but by joining that organisation they bear some responsibility by supporting Nazism.

Your daughter may not believe that having sex with a child is good - but she’s part of a faith who’s founder did. She’s part of a faith who’s founder remains for the majority of Moslems as the ideal example of a man.
 
haaretz.com/hasen/spages/899414.html
Last update - 12:39 01/09/2007
Reform Jewish leader tells U.S. Muslims that Islam is being demonized
By Shlomo Shamir, Haaretz Correspondent and Reuters

The president of the Union for Reform Judaism accused American media, politicians and religious groups on Friday of demonizing Islam.

Addressing the annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America, Rabbi Eric Yoffie said Muslims have been turned into “satanic figures.”

“There exists in this country among all Americans, whether Jews, Christians, or non-believers, a huge and profound ignorance about Islam … there is no shortage of voices prepared to tell us that fanaticism and intolerance are fundamental to Islamic religion, and that violence and even suicide bombing have deep Koranic roots,” he said.

Yoffie said his organization is discussing with Muslim leaders a dialogue and education program in the near future to increase understanding between the two faiths.

He said Americans need to know “how far removed Islam is from the perverse distortions of the terrorists who too often dominate the media, subverting Islam’s image by professing to speak in its name.”

Yoffie also called for an end to racial profiling and legal discrimination of any kind against Muslim Americans, and urged North America’s Muslims to keep condemning violence committed in the name of Islam until the message sinks in.

In his address, Yoffie said “to all those who desecrate God’s name by using religion to justify killing and terror, let us say together: Enough.”

“No cause in the world, and surely no religious cause, can ever justify murdering the innocent or targeting the uninvolved … You cannot honor God if you do not honor the image of God in every human being; and you cannot get to heaven by creating hell on earth,” he said.

“We have expressed these views, and so have you, with your clear statements condemning terrorist attacks. But let us agree that this task will not be done until the message is heard, and others in the Muslim world join with [you] in ringing denunciations of terror that will be heard throughout the globe.”

Yoffie’s progressive wing of Judaism describes itself as the largest Jewish religious movement in North America, with more than 900 congregations and 1.5 million Jews. The annual convention of the largest U.S. Muslim group draws about 30,000 people.
 
I have to do some work but i keep getting distracted by this forum:wave: :coffeeread: :juggle:
 
In his address, Yoffie said “to all those who desecrate God’s name by using religion to justify killing and terror, let us say together: Enough.”

“No cause in the world, and surely no religious cause, can ever justify murdering the innocent or targeting the uninvolved … You cannot honor God if you do not honor the image of God in every human being; and you cannot get to heaven by creating hell on earth,” he said.

Pity Yoffie wasn’t around to tell that to Muhammad around 630AD.
 
It’s a loose way of saying she’s now joined up to a belief-system that I find abhorrent.

I think you’re taking what he said way to personally.

Why not step back for a moment and deal with some of the facts presented - in your own time, of course.
I don’t think you’re getting the subtle argument being presented.

Islam is evil - that’s borne out by the fact (which you’re ignoring).

Not everyone who’s Moslem is a practioner of all that is evil in Islam.

However, they must *support *it, else they’d not be Moslem.

Think of it this way. In Germany in the 1930s a person may not have personally had anything against the Jews, but may have joined up with the Nazi Party - for whatever reasons; job enhancement, social pressures, etc.

This doesn’t mean that person is directly responsible for the deaths of 6,000,000 Jews, but by joining that organisation they bear some responsibility by supporting Nazism.

Your daughter may not believe that having sex with a child is good - but she’s part of a faith who’s founder did. She’s part of a faith who’s founder remains for the majority of Moslems as the ideal example of a man.
You are right I am taking it personally. Indeed, very personally. And what I would like to help others here see, is that we are not talking about just a belief system. I disagree with it theologically. And there are some points where I disagree with it politically, as well. But just like not all Germans were Nazis, so not all Muslims are terrorists. Yes, the USA waged a war against Nazi Germany, but not against Germans. Look at how we responded to the German people. Same thing with Japan and the Japanese, though certainly that comes closer to the religious parallels you may wish to draw.

My father happened to be one who occupied Nagasaki. One day, about 3 weeks after the dropping of the bomb ending the war, he was walking the streets on the outskirts of that levelled city when he came upon a young Japanese girl, about 10 years of age (meaning she would have known nothing but war her whole life, for it started before 1935 for the people of Japan), bouncing a ball up against the steps of the rubble that was once her house. She surprised him by speaking to him in English.
(Now remember, my father was just a 19-year-old American sailor, in uniform.)
Girl: Are you a Christian?
And continuing before he got a chance to answer: Of course you’re a Christian. You’re an American; all Americans are Christians. I’m a Christian too.
And with that she went up to him, and gave him a hug.
I wonder what the people back in the USA were saying about “dirty Japs” at the time? After all, the USA had been attacked. The Japanese were taught to view their emperor as a god. They had been told that Americans could not be trusted, and trained to willingly give their life to kill any and all Americans. Yet, here was one little girl who did not fit that mold. Do you think she was the only one? Where did she learn what she had learned about Americans? Why didn’t she throw rocks at him instead of hugging this man who represented the country that had annihilated her home? I suspect it is because no matter how much evidence we might have to paint a picture of the evils (or good) of a particular group of people, that such stereotypes are just that, sterotypes, and should never be applied universally.

Now, Montalban, you seem to understand this, “Not everyone who’s Moslem is a practioner of all that is evil in Islam,” and I need to be careful to deal with your comments differently than that of others who appear to be ensconced in some other sort of xenophobic bigotry that judges people as a group rather than as indiviiduals. Please forgive me if I attribute or have attributed to you something perhaps is another poster’s point of view.

In the broad view, yes, the government of Japan had to be dealt with, and unfortunately that meant war. The same can be said of Nazi Germany. But that didn’t mean that we had to paint all Japanese or all Germans that way. Nor did we have to paint all Russians, not even all Communists, that way with respect to the Cold War. And we don’t have to, and in my opinion therefore should not, paint all Muslims that way in a war on terror.
 
What do you mean she “signed up”?
It’s a loose way of saying she’s now joined up to a belief-system that I find abhorrent.
With respect to my daughter, she was born Muslim, and knew nothing besides Isalm until she was 17. Yes, she believes what she was taught as a child, but it is not the same Islam that people are trying to paint as being Islam on this thread, and that is why I will continue to object to such portrayals. Indeed, unlike Japan, Nazi Germany, and the Soviet Union, there is no Muslim government seeking to bring an end to the USA. I find the vast majority of Muslims, while wishing to proselytize non-Muslims (as I would gladly share my Christian faith with them), are content with the belief that there should be no compulsion in religion. (Though I would agree with those who say that Sharia laws fall well short of true religious freedom.) I find that the vast majority of Muslims also abhor what they see as a perversion of Islam by those who have adopted terror as a means to their various ends, be they poltical or even religious.

Now, you may say that my personal experience and acquaintance, no matter how broad can only be an infinitesimally small percentage of Muslims. Very true. But, on what grounds would you find them not to be representative? They are people from dozens of countries, some western, some middle eastern, some Asian, some with dominantly Muslim populations and yet secular, and some with a president who seems ready to wage nuclear war with the USA as if it were his personal religious duty. Even those solidiers I know who serve in Iraq, and two Christian friends who are missionaries in Kurdistan report to me that, while they have to be cautious, on the whole they find that they are well received by the common people, Muslims though they be.

Now, surely there are places where those who have adopted terror as a weapon exert great influence and even have some power, but again they do not represent Islam, at best they represent only one aspect of Islam, and by emphasizing it absent other aspect of Islam they have become unbalanced both in their beliefs and in the actions.

So, we must resist those who, having perverted the teachings of Islam to arrive at some sort of quasi-religious justification for their own agendas, now engage in terrorism. But we need not label all who are Muslim as believing in those same set of beliefs, because they don’t. And if instead, we go about convincing ourselves that everything about Islam is evil by citing only those verses that back up this singular view absent others that might provide a more rounded view, then we have merely copied those terrorist in becoming equally unbalanced in our thinking with regard to Isalm just like they have.

And lastly, yes, when this unbalanced view toward Isalm reaches the point where it attributes ideaology and attitudes to my daughter that I know are not true of her then, yes, you can bet it is going to get personal. So, please, take the time to learn the whole story, not just one portion of it.

Are there Muslim terrorists? Yes, there are terrorists who claim to represent Islam. They are terrible people. But they are not truly representative of Islam, even less are they representative of all Muslims. Just think of all the Muslims who are citizens of countries that we are allied with in this “war on terror”, surely that fact alone should convince one that there is no monolithic entity that is Islam. And to act as if there is would be bad politics as a nation, and sinful as individual Christians. As followers of the Christ, I believe we are called to something better than that.
 
Hey, Grace Seeker.
Code:
 It says on your public profile that you are a United Methodist preacher.  Aren't you on the wrong side of the fence in this argument?  I'm sure your daughter doesn't say bad things about you - you're her mother.  But to those Islamic nuts we are speaking of, YOU are the infidel.  YOU, my friend.  Are you actually defending their right to call you an infidel and possibly, given the chance, kill you for it?  Would you want one of those nuts in your house *right now*?  Go ahead - invite them over for coffee and cookies and we'll see if you're here next week to post anything else.
Tracy
I am an infidel even to Muslims who are not nuts, which by the way is the majority of Muslims. And, yes, I would defend their right to consider me an infidel. Just as I once defended the rights of Catholics who call me a heretic. (A not so oblique reference to my former military service, and that as a Protestant I have been labelled a number of things in other threads on this board.)

As to inviting “one of those nuts in [my] house”, indeed just last week I had a friend who happens to be Muslim stay with me. Actually, it was the first time we had met face-to-face, knowing each other previously only from a year’s worth of internet conversations. But, I guess he wasn’t a nut since I’m still here to post this week. What he happens to be is an agronomist, which I found interesting as my grandfather was also an agronomist years ago. The point being, that beside religion, there isn’t as much difference between Muslims and the rest of us as some here would like to think. And I contend, that with the exception of a few dangerous individuals (which can be found in every religion), even those ideological differences might not be so big either.
 
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