What Muslims are Taught in their Mosques

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after reading the posts here (justified as they may be) and the posts in the war on terror threads that seek to justify and even sanctify war, i wonder if christianity is a peaceful religion. i don’t doubt its founder was. but it’s almost as if nothing has changed in the 2000 years since he came and was crucified here – his message seems to have fallen on deaf ears.😦
The problem I have, personally, is not that I think we should “hate” Muslims or anyone else. Rather what bothers me is that so many people want to deceive themselves into thinking that Islam is something that it is not. Jesus said “love your enemies”, he didn’t say “pretend you have no enemies”.
 
Tomarin,

You are correct most posters answer an eye for an eye but the Lord States to turn the other cheek. The Lord states to Love your enemy. He gave the example while teaching his followers and his enemies.

The same must be done here in this forum. I asked the questions so that in the reply an act of reflection must occur. We must show love and respect to each and every person posting even if they insult you like I was no matter how subtle or concealed the attack is. Only then can we as Christians begin to change hearts and minds.

“The harvest is plenty but the laborers are few”
 
what bothers me is that so many people want to deceive themselves into thinking that Islam is something that it is not. Jesus said “love your enemies”, he didn’t say “pretend you have no enemies”.
and don’t forget from Matthew 10:16: “behold i send ye forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves”.

but is there any point distinguishing between islam and a radical or extreme version of the religion? some people say there is a war going within islamic societies between the one and the other, and our wisest choice as westerners would be to make sure our policies support the moderate against the extremist.

for a lot of complex reasons, the extremists seem to be winning this war.
 
The problem I have, personally, is not that I think we should “hate” Muslims or anyone else. Rather what bothers me is that so many people want to deceive themselves into thinking that Islam is something that it is not.
I know I’m a broken record, but I’m going to keep saying it–there is no essence of Islam apart from the specific people who believe and practice it. In other words, one must logically be a nominalist about false religions, and a realist only about one’s own. It makes no sense to say that some self-professed Muslims are “not really Muslims.” Islam is whatever people who consider themselves Muslims say it is.

Now if you want to say, “people are deceiving themselves into thinking that more Muslims are moderate than is in fact the case,” I would tend to agree with you. But it all depends on what we mean by “moderate”–it varies from one issue to another.

Edwin
 
Of course, I don’t believe Islam is True. However, that does not mean that there is not a “true” Islam - one that either really does condone violence or one that is truly peaceful.
Yes, it does mean that. What do you mean by “true Islam”? What criterion determines which version of Islam is “true”? Why are you competent to make this determination? Would you similarly grant non-Christians the authority to read the Bible and early Christian sources for themselves and decide which version of Christianity is “true”?
I don’t feel as if your Episcopalian faith is True, either
Exactly. And so you have no business saying that one Episcopalian is a “true Episcopalian” and another one isn’t. You should sit back and observe what Episcopalians actually believe and practice. Same with Islam.
I would like to know what “true” Islam is
But the term is an oxymoron.
so that I know if I need to be prepared to openly oppose it 100% (as would be the case if it “truly” condones and teaches forced conversion or death) or if I simply need to oppose that radical element that is twisting the teachings to condone their acts of violence and work with the “true” Muslims who are following a peaceful faith in hopes of bringing them to the fullness of Truth found in the Catholic Church.
I know this would be convenient (because you wouldn’t have to deal with the complexity of what actual people believe and do), but it’s not the way things are. There simply are Muslims–that is to say, people who identify themselves with the Islamic tradition. Some of them are relatively more peaceful, and others are relatively more violent. My dad’s cousin, for instance, converted to a version of Sufi Islam that is very peaceful and tolerant. I’m sure many Muslims would consider her “not really” a Muslim.

We should work with those versions of Islam that are closer to the Truth. Why are you, as a Christian, interested in preserving the “purity” of Islam? If (for the sake of argument) much of what Muhammad originally taught was evil, and Islam shows promise of developing into something better than what it originally was, why not welcome this? Obviously we can’t encourage Muslims to be historically dishonest, but we don’t need to do that. I can agree to disagree with my Sufi cousin regarding whether Muhammad actually was the way she thinks he was. But I can welcome the elements of her faith that are good and true, even while doubting whether Muhammad’s own belief and practice was anything like hers.

The danger, as I see it, is that a fundamentalist (“Salafi”) version of Islam has gained a lot of strength in the past few centuries, and is trumpeting itself as the “true” Islam. Christians are only strengthening the hand of the Salafis by accepting these claims and treating the more traditional (pre-1800 or so) versions of Islam (which tend to be heavily Sufi) as the “corruptions” the Salafis say they are (never mind the more radical versions of Sufism and “Islamic modernism” which are certainly different from the historic mainstream of Islam). I can see why fundamentalist Protestants work this way–after all, they believe that the Bible is simple and can be interpreted in only one way. But this is obviously crazy. Catholics have no excuse for treating the Qur’an this way–they recognize that the Bible is complex and that traditions of interpreting it undergo genuine and legitimate development. Why not let Islam do the same thing with the Qur’an?

Here’s a specific example: there are vague statements of tolerance in the Qur’an (most famously “there is no compulsion in religion”), and then there are the “verses of the sword,” etc. Many Muslims claim that the “verses of the sword” must be used to interpret the “no compulsion” passage rather than the other way round, because they were written later and later passages supercede earlier ones. Other Muslims do not accept this hermeneutical principle. Why on earth should Christians accept this as the only way to read the Qur’an? Yet I hear that argument on these boards and elsewhere all the time from conservative Christians, totally dismissing those Muslims who in good faith believe that the “no compulsion” passage can be interpreted so as to nullify the more violent and intolerant aspects of Islam. Yet we Christians do this sort of thing with the Bible all the time. We find specific statements or actions (particularly in the OT) that seem morally objectionable, and we find basic principles elsewhere in Scripture that provide a basis for interpreting the troubling passages in a morally acceptable manner. I for one do not have a lot of patience for people like Sam Harris who say things like “the Bible authorizes slavery,” because he’s ignoring the way Christians today interpret the Bible, and ignoring the mitigating factors in the original historical context. Yet Christians do exactly this to Islam.

Edwin
 
I know I’m a broken record, but I’m going to keep saying it–there is no essence of Islam apart from the specific people who believe and practice it. In other words, one must logically be a nominalist about false religions, and a realist only about one’s own.
don’t worry about being a broken record, as long as what you’re saying bears repeating. i read exoflare’s post as agreeing with yours by the way – saying there’s no point in sugarcoating the reality of muslim antipathy towards christians.

but what you say about being a nominalist about false religions and a realist about one’s own – does this mean not acknowledging that the muslim world is not monolithic, i.e. doesn’t have its own internal divisions due to schism, nationality, ethnicity etc?

i guess i’m trying to work out what is the “proper” disposition for a catholic towards non-christian religions especially islam. i’m generally a live-and-let-live type of person by temperament, so i’m confused by the anti-muslim posts on this forum which in their crudest form appear to be little more than hate speech and contradict church leaders’ teachings (as i understand them) about the value of dialogue and the importance of mutual respect as a prerequisite for that dialogue.
 
I would hope that there’s at least one thing that could be agreed upon: extremism is a huge part of what can make religion bad. Christians use the Bible to justify persecuting blacks, Jews and Catholics through the Ku Klux Klan, as well as for the atrocities of the Holocaust (where Catholics were slaughtered, as well as Jews, gypsies and anyone else deemed undesirable.) Catholics themselves led the Crusades and tortured and killed Muslims and Jews. No religion is completely innocent.

The only other thing I can really say is that the Muslims I know are wonderful, loving people who value their friends and families, their relationship with God and who treat guests and strangers warmly and well. Which is a lot like the Catholics and Jews that I know, not to mention pagans, Buddhists, and Christians of other denominations.

I guess my point is, every bushel has bad apples. All religions have things in their past to learn from.
 
but what you say about being a nominalist about false religions and a realist about one’s own – does this mean not acknowledging that the muslim world is not monolithic, i.e. doesn’t have its own internal divisions due to schism, nationality, ethnicity etc?.
A “nominalist” believes that only individual things exist, and all generalizations and abstractions are simply convenient words that we use to describe similar individual things. A “realist” believes that there are essences that make things what they are, and that things are similar because they share a common essence. I used this terminology mostly because GregoryPalamas accused me in an earlier thread on this subject of being a “nominalist” because of my view that there is no “true Islam.” My point is that if (as we both believe) Islam is not true, then there is no “essence” that unites the various Islamic beliefs and practices. There is just the name “Islam” which is a convenient term for what a bunch of people throughout history have believed and practiced. So the quest for a “true Islam” is pointless.

I am a realist with regard to the classic abstractions, such as Truth, Goodness, Beauty, etc. Religions are true and good insofar as they share in these divine ideas. But I do not believe that historical phenomena and movements have essences apart from Truth, Beauty, Goodness, etc. There is no Essence of Islam, or Essence of Anglicanism. There is an Essence of Christianity, because Christianity is the true religion revealed by God. Specific forms of Christianity, and to a lesser extent other religions as well, share in that essence to varying degrees.

Whether, for instance, species of animals have essences is another and very interesting question. Humans definitely do. I’m enough of a scholastic to think that probably all animals have a shared essence, but I’m not sure (in the light of Darwinian theory, which I provisionally accept with regard to common ancestry, though not in all its more philosophical aspects) that specific species of irrational animals have their own essence. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
There is an Essence of Christianity, because Christianity is the true religion revealed by God. Specific forms of Christianity, and to a lesser extent other religions as well, share in that essence to varying degrees.
just curious to know what relationship in your view that essence of christianity has to catholicism – since you’re an anglican i take it they are not exactly identical?
 
just curious to know what relationship in your view that essence of christianity has to catholicism – since you’re an anglican i take it they are not exactly identical?
No, because no specific embodiment of Christianity is perfect (in the sense I mean it, this shouldn’t be controversial–I’m not just talking about official doctrines). But compared to other versions of Christianity, the “Roman” version is pretty close. Closer than Anglicanism, or any other form of Western Christianity for sure (I’m less willing to make generalizations about the Eastern churches).

Edwin
 
I really do not think that islam is a religion of peace. In the qu’ran they are told to kill those who do not believe what they believe. If you take the qu’ran word for word like most muslims do, every terrorist act is justified. When someone says islam is a religion of peace, ask what peace are they are talking about. Are they speaking of peace between those of different beliefs or peace only between fellow muslims. I have a fear that one day in the not to distant future that Europe will be over run and there will be a societal up heaval replacing the tradition of Christianity in Europe with Islam. We are seeing already that European countries such as Denmark and Great Britain are on pace to have a Muslim majority due to immigration imagine what would happen if one day there were more muslims in Italy than Catholics, imagine what would happen to the Vatican.
Unfortunately there isn’t much that we christians can do about Europe , except to pray that somehow the muslim community will get the opportunity to at least read the bible/hear the GOOD NEWS ! A dream perhaps ??? Maybe the good book is right and the time of persecution of christians is close at hand ? One things for sure…i feel sorry for the Europeans who should have known better than to allow people into their countries , without applying their minds as to the possible consequences !
All christians should take cognisance of the fact that a christianity deeply divided amongst itself is joyous news to the forces of hate and evil in this world. Who can bring about the unity we all [secretly] hope and pray for ???! Peace to all in his Name !!!
 
but is there any point distinguishing between islam and a radical or extreme version of the religion?
No. In most cases, the so-called “extremists” are the ones who are practicing Islam as it was taught in the Quran and Hadiths. It’s really no use trying to come up with a “moderate” version of Islam for the majority of lukewarm or secularized Muslims who want to somehow have it both ways. Just because for whatever reason a lot of Muslims don’t take their religion as seriously, or are ignorant of it, does not mean the teachings of Islam suddenly change.
 
I know I’m a broken record, but I’m going to keep saying it–there is no essence of Islam apart from the specific people who believe and practice it. In other words, one must logically be a nominalist about false religions, and a realist only about one’s own. It makes no sense to say that some self-professed Muslims are “not really Muslims.” Islam is whatever people who consider themselves Muslims say it is.
I wouldn’t say that they “aren’t really Muslims”, but again I’m talking about the ideology itself and not the people. IMO what an ideology contains is not restricted by whatever a self-proclaimed adherent to that ideology claims it to be. In that case, different terms for different religions would be useless anyway as everything in the would just boil down to personal interpretation.
 
The problem with your example with Egypt are manifold.

The Copts were exempted from general perseuction (as was the Monastary at Mt Sinai) by their prophet, himself.

Your example would be equivelent to me arguing that the Jews weren’t persecuted during WWII because up until 1945 the population of Jews particular to Hungary escaped perseuction.

Thus the example of a singular exemption would not make the general rule

I don’t know if you meant to deceive people with that bad example, or maybe you’re just not aware of the history of Chrisitanity in that nation.

Because of this special protection the Moslems were able to use the Copts against the Roman Empire - because they didn’t get on with the Orthodox east.

Egypt, further, is not a “Moslem state” in the sense that it was forced to modify it’s laws as long ago as the late 1800s when it was effectively ruled by Great Britain.

The example of Sauid Arabia is pertienent because it is an Islamic state. Conversion is not allowed. Even wearing a cross around one’s neck is forbidden.
iam an egyptian ~Moe

I’m not saying what happened to the Jew isn’t bad it is awful. But, there is no reson to do what is happening to the Palistineions. It is about as bad. I know people that are from that area and it is horrible stuff that is happening because they don’t want to leave. That is there home and there homes are being torn down and constant worry about what will happen next. And they was willing to share the land. They wasnt going to fight about it.
 
And just so you know I have studyed this done resurch. And have talked to menny people about the middle east and everything. DON’T FORGET MY HUSBAND IS FROM THERE THERE FOR HE KNOWS MORE ABOUT ANYTHING THATS HAPPENING OVER THERE THAN AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Just think about it.:mad:
 
Jesicae,

I can see why you think love thy enemy is a bunch of nonsense. Look at Moe’s reply. The contempt and disregard he showed that individual was offensive, rude and disrespectful. The original person posting not once insulted you or your husband. If the person was wrong teach them do not verbally beat them.

It is a perfect example of Arab attitude to the west. We are dogs, we are the great satan the needs to be destroyed, we are uneducated monkeys.

You have not answered any of my questions I have asked you.

You have changed the subject by moving over to the Palestinian / Israeli conflict.

I am not going to answer you further while you have not answered my earlier questions.
 
Yes, it does mean that. What do you mean by “true Islam”? What criterion determines which version of Islam is “true”? Why are you competent to make this determination? Would you similarly grant non-Christians the authority to read the Bible and early Christian sources for themselves and decide which version of Christianity is “true”?
What makes you competent to make this determination? I, for one, never claimed that I had this competence, although it appears you think I did somehow. I was simply trying to get to the heart of what Islam “truly” teaches. After reading your argument I’ve come to the conclusion that it is impossible to come to that determination for the exact same reason that plagues protestantism - no final earthly authority to answer the question of what “true” Islam is.
Exactly. And so you have no business saying that one Episcopalian is a “true Episcopalian” and another one isn’t. You should sit back and observe what Episcopalians actually believe and practice. Same with Islam.
Nor did I claim such business. But, under your logic, I would be justified to sit back, watch people from a religious tradition (let’s say Episcopalians) and if I find they are deceptive, untrustworthy lot, I would then be able to determine by those observations what true Episcopalianism is?
I know this would be convenient (because you wouldn’t have to deal with the complexity of what actual people believe and do), but it’s not the way things are. There simply are Muslims–that is to say, people who identify themselves with the Islamic tradition. Some of them are relatively more peaceful, and others are relatively more violent. My dad’s cousin, for instance, converted to a version of Sufi Islam that is very peaceful and tolerant. I’m sure many Muslims would consider her “not really” a Muslim.

We should work with those versions of Islam that are closer to the Truth. Why are you, as a Christian, interested in preserving the “purity” of Islam? If (for the sake of argument) much of what Muhammad originally taught was evil, and Islam shows promise of developing into something better than what it originally was, why not welcome this? Obviously we can’t encourage Muslims to be historically dishonest, but we don’t need to do that. I can agree to disagree with my Sufi cousin regarding whether Muhammad actually was the way she thinks he was. But I can welcome the elements of her faith that are good and true, even while doubting whether Muhammad’s own belief and practice was anything like hers.

Here’s a specific example: there are vague statements of tolerance in the Qur’an (most famously “there is no compulsion in religion”), and then there are the “verses of the sword,” etc. Many Muslims claim that the “verses of the sword” must be used to interpret the “no compulsion” passage rather than the other way round, because they were written later and later passages supercede earlier ones. Other Muslims do not accept this hermeneutical principle. Why on earth should Christians accept this as the only way to read the Qur’an? Yet I hear that argument on these boards and elsewhere all the time from conservative Christians, totally dismissing those Muslims who in good faith believe that the “no compulsion” passage can be interpreted so as to nullify the more violent and intolerant aspects of Islam. Yet we Christians do this sort of thing with the Bible all the time. We find specific statements or actions (particularly in the OT) that seem morally objectionable, and we find basic principles elsewhere in Scripture that provide a basis for interpreting the troubling passages in a morally acceptable manner. I for one do not have a lot of patience for people like Sam Harris who say things like “the Bible authorizes slavery,” because he’s ignoring the way Christians today interpret the Bible, and ignoring the mitigating factors in the original historical context. Yet Christians do exactly this to Islam.

Edwin
When it comes right down to it, all this just soldifies in my mind how blessed I am to be Catholic. The same issue of authority is basically ripping the Muslim world apart. I think you are right - there is no way to determine whether or not Islam is a peaceful religion, because whether or not it is peaceful is basically determined by how the Quran is interpreted and who is interpreting it. I guess I’m just glad that Christianity has not been as plagued with those who would interpret the Bible to condone violence.

Thank you, Jesus, for the Church, the Pope, and the Magisterium!
 
My daughter’s best friend is an Egyptian Coptic Christian. Her family had to leave Egypt because they could not find work (father an engineer, mother a doctor) and because they would not convert to Islam. My guess is their lives were not entirely pleasant prior to leaving Egypt…
 
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