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David_Castlen
Guest
BTW it appears he was going to do good works, was int he process. he was going to his spouse to tell her the good news.
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BTW it appears he was going to do good works, was int he process. he was going to his spouse to tell her the good news.
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Philthy
Guest
Harsh? I believe that’s a subjective assessment on your part which you are entitled to. I didn’t mean to be harsh, just honest. Did you miss this part of the post…
That doesn’t seem like someone trying to be harsh, and - and this is a big and - I thought she had bailed from the thread and would not be reading it (see “so I’m going to stop” below).
Inaccurate? I simply disagree with you on this one…
Hmmm. Leadee seems to view her inability to be understood as a failure on our end of the dialogue. Nothing could be further from the truth IMO. The truth is that Leadee is not particularly clear in articulating her position, and when she is and some of the implications of that position are brought to light she rejects them, ignores them and leaves them unaddressed, and concludes that we have a problem understanding her. Of course I could be mistaken, but I could show you several points of this thread that provide reasonable justification for me holding that opinion. And I am not exactly alone in my opinion
But perhaps more to the point, did you have a “break through” on a particular issue that leads you to conclude otherwise? Perhaps this gave you cause for optimism…
It all sounds very good (especially for you
) but I don’t quite see the recognition that “Oh I can see where I was mistaken and how what you’ve said makes more sense”. Like I said in the post that you criticized…
I think you have done an outstanding job of planting that seed, and I commend you! .Usually it is best when planting a seed to break the earth and bury it. Perhaps my comments - and my approach - lean more towards breaking the earth so that the seed may be planted. Was I too harsh? I don’t know, but I respect your opinion and will be careful in future posts. This I do know, though: Until Leadee begins to recognize some of her shortcomings (rather than attributing them to us) she won’t be truly ready to entertain the possibility that she has something to learn. And if that were to happen then she might simply “agree to disagree” and not really progress in the truth, and that would be a shame. I think we can both agree on that.
Keep up the good work and I welcome your feedback.
Blessings
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Philthy
Guest
Well welcome back! I was hoping to see you here again. I was waiting for you to “show me” as promised way back in this post 651…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8205063&postcount=654
but you just disappeared :crying:
Let’s pick it up again - it’s an important part of the discussion…
Lastly, the good works that God prepared are His works AND we should walk in them. There is blessing (justification) when we do, and it is sinful when we don’t. Wise up!
I look forward to picking up on the topic of initial, ongoing and final salvation!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8205063&postcount=654
but you just disappeared :crying:
Let’s pick it up again - it’s an important part of the discussion…
Abraham was justified by faith - and by offering Isaac on the altar - prior to the crucifixion. In addition, Jesus told the rich man to “follow me”, which has nothing to do with the Law. You’re a little confused on this point IMHO.
Lastly, the good works that God prepared are His works AND we should walk in them. There is blessing (justification) when we do, and it is sinful when we don’t. Wise up!
I look forward to picking up on the topic of initial, ongoing and final salvation!
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PRmerger
Guest
This is very Catholic of you to say, pesce!
We say: We do not judge him. For we may not be aware of anything against him, but he is not acquitted because of this. The one who judges is the Lord.
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paul_c
Guest
Let me give you the Catholic Perspective on this passage.
You see, we are freely saved when we are baptized, No works were required, merely the commitment to living a life in Christ. For his part, Jesus forgives us all former sin and lets us start out fresh as a member of the church with sufficient grace to do the good works we were created for.
Now we must follow Christ from then on, doing those works he calls us created us for, doing God’s will by cooperating with his grace. If we die in the state of grace we will go to heaven. If however, we turn from God though sin, we will be condemned unless we repent and reconcile with God through the sacrament of reconciliation, which he freely gives to all those that ask.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
But Paul says this quite a bit after Jesus died on the Cross for all of us:
Romans 2:5-8
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
Not that it matters because Jesus brought us salvation through the Gospel, through His life, acts and as WORD and God. FIRST is Jesus Christ for all. And no one gets to put aside any of His Word.
Paul only relates the Truth of Jesus Christ, and only partially, for in Christ is all Truth.
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ddarko
Guest
Hey there,
What exactly happened to all we talked about? You come out of nowhere with one Scripture verse and are trying again to justify something which you think is RIGHT according to your interpretation. I thought we talked about this interpretation business?
So I hope you are asking because you are seeking how to understand it rather than to prove that faith alone is TRUE.
Now as for your passage, the key is
“For by grace you have been saved through faith”
What St. Paul is trying to get at here is the same message he tells to the Philippians i.e. That man, because of his fall, cannot do GOOD WORKS by himself. He needs God’s GRACE.
Therefore, all GOOD WORKS are done BY CO-OPERATION with God’s grace.
So if one does not CO-OPERATE with GRACE by doing GOOD WORKS, then that person is not SAVED.
The above passage says NOTHING about us been saved by FAITH ALONE. It merely points out that OUR GOOD WORKS result from GOD’s GRACE.
But as its been made CLEAR all throughout the Bible, WE ARE FREE TO REJECT THIS GRACE by NOT DOING God’s will i.e. GOOD WORKS. Thus we cannot BOAST about it.
Thus, Salvation is by FAITH and GOOD WORKS through GRACE ALONE. NOT Faith alone.
God Bless
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ddarko
Guest
NOOO. We don’t need to prove our faith (i.e.) mental assent. God knows our mental assent.
The point is that mere mental assent is NOT ENOUGH. One needs to give assent of the WILL. i.e. DO GOOD WORKS.
So you can have mental assent and loose salvation. Why? Because you didn’t do GOOD WORKS. This is why at the last day of judgement, as described in the Bible, Jesus doesn’t blame the people going to hell as “You didn’t believe in me”. He says you didn’t ‘treat me right’. He says ‘I was in prison you didn’t come visit me’, ‘hungry you didn’t feed me’ etc. He doesn’t say you are going to hell because you didn’t believe in me.
Oooooh, sweeet scenario. So here is the answer.
First off, this man who ran across the street had no opportunity to co-operate with God’s grace. ( I would argue, he WAS DOING something by running across the street to tell his wife but lets make it tougher for me and say he got a heart attack right after baptism).
The point then is that the person is NOT GUILTY of anything because he did not refuse God’s will.
You see, GOOD WORKS are God’s will for us. If we don’t care for the poor etc WHEN WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY to DO SO (i.e. to DO GOOD WORKS), then we loose salvation. Why? Because we SAY NO to God’s will.
So you need to get the right picture.
What God wants us to do is have faith in him and DO HIS WILL. If his will is for us to DIE right after we have faith in him or are baptized, we have nothing to worry. We have not VIOLATED his will.
It is in this sense that Faith and Works are both important.
It is a very subtle point so its possible you won’t see it first time. Just ask again.
He goes to heaven BECAUSE he has DONE nothing AGAINST the WILL OF GOD.
GOOD WORKS are things that God wants us to do. He gives us the GRACE to do them. We can’t say no. To say no is to disobey the will of God, the very definition of SIN.
But on the other hand, if we were never given the Grace and God never intended for us to do something, then we have done nothing wrong. But if we went AGAINST the will of God, we loose salvation.
That is why FAITH and WORKS are both necessary for salvation. So while having FAITH, you should also CONTINUOUSLY STRIVE to DO GOOD WORKS.
Btw, just as with the example above, you get a nice counterpart scenario with Works alone. If someone is invincibly ignorant and has never heard of Christ. If he does GOOD WORKS (according to what he knows to be good by natural reason) by co-operating with God’s grace, HE will be saved though he has no FAITH (in the sense you put it) in God and Christ.
In the above case, one could make a theological point that him doing good works is still implicitly believing in Christ the Logos but that is a different thing since we are talking about full mental assent to Christ in your case.
In any case, these are hypothetical scenarios. God in his providence probably never makes such events take place. What we need to know for salvation is that we must always have Faith and always do GOOD works.
P.S. Your hypothetical scenario is a good example which highlights a KEY point in what GOOD WORKS are and WHY they are important. Thanks for raising that up!
God Bless
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
Or we do. Do not keep ignoring the Romans 2 citation, it would make you false to yourself.
Now, here’s the deal:** God doesn’t care** whether we are following Jesus’ commands in order to get to heaven (which means doing acts of charity, accepting humility, practicing honesty) or if we are in the process of drawing close to out Lord and our God so transformed we are moved by the Holy Spriit in compassion and cannot walk by a hungry person, or ignore a plea for help. What we feel at the moment is insignificant.
Do the works to get there or do them by inspiration, God uses the fact of your actions in His judgement. This is what both Jesus and Paul said.
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Philthy
Guest
I wish to publicly say that I am sorry for some of the things I have said regarding our friend Leadee during the course of this thread. Some comments simply cause more harm than good and are best left unsaid. I’m afraid some of mine fall into this category.I also want to thank Paulc for bringing to my attention how “harsh…inaccurate” and “judgemental” some of those comments were. My well constructed defense of these comments - while accurate - simply miss the marks of compassion and humility that we are all called to demonstrate. Again I apologize and most especially to Leadee.
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davidmlamb
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Philthy
Guest
Hi David! :tiphat:
If you cannot get fpesce to recognize that their are different phases of salvation during this life ( initial and ongoing) then the excellent points that you make won’t be appreciated and you will talk past one another IMHO. I hope you don’t mind if I add some comments to clarify…
davidmlamb:
It’s pretty simple to grasp once you realize that despite the context being “salvation” the biblical authors are often talking about slightly different things - different aspects of that one topic. Understanding that the terms saved, salvation, justification and righteousness are used loosely throughout Scripture to refer to different aspects of our salvation is very helpful in understanding verses that otherwise would seem to contradict one another. For example:
Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith…it is not from works…”
James 2:24"…a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Are they contradictory??? No they are not. If someone were to hold that salvation is a moment in time rather than a process throughout our lives, then they would find them irreconcilable - like Luther. In order to attempt to reconcile them - to preserve the correct belief that Scripture cannot contradict itself - they would then abandon the plain sense of the words and offer elaborate explanations for how James is talking about something other than salvation, or that the justification that he speaks of is not really justification that relates to salvation. It gets pretty crazy. The simple truth of the matter is that they are both talking about salvation, just different aspects of salvation and those different aspects have differing criteria.
Paul, in the top verse is referring to our initial salvation (that’s why he puts it in the past tense “have been” - he’s talking to and about Christians- its a done deal). We enter into by grace through faith apart from works. We all say amen to that!
James, in the second verse,** is speaking of ongoing** salvation (that’s why he speaks of it in the present tense). It is worth noting that the context of James comments is established early on : What if a man says he has faith but has no works, can that faith save him? The context is salvation - and it is spoken of as a present and future event. And the answer is a resounding no: James 2:24"For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so faith alone - if it does not have works - is dead"
Without the ability to agree on these basics of salvation it is impossible to truly discuss the issue of “What must I do to be saved”? That is why I often attempt to steer the discussion towards “What must I do to go to Heaven”? This is often spoken of as “inheriting the Kingdom of God” and Paul is very clear in 1Cor6, Eph 5 and Gal 5 that it is not by faith alone.
Blessings!
If you cannot get fpesce to recognize that their are different phases of salvation during this life ( initial and ongoing) then the excellent points that you make won’t be appreciated and you will talk past one another IMHO. I hope you don’t mind if I add some comments to clarify…
This is **initial **salvation being discussed: we have “accepted Jesus” as Lord and as such become a child of God and are “saved”.
This is dealing with ongoing salvation - the Christian walk. We are already a child of God and we have the trials and lures of the world to face. God promises that we can meet the challenge (by grace) and to provide “a way out” for us (1 Cor 10:13)
Castaways indeed, as St Paul said, we have made a “shipwreck of our faith”.
Yes. During our ongoing salvation walking in the good deeds that God has provided justifies us.
It’s pretty simple to grasp once you realize that despite the context being “salvation” the biblical authors are often talking about slightly different things - different aspects of that one topic. Understanding that the terms saved, salvation, justification and righteousness are used loosely throughout Scripture to refer to different aspects of our salvation is very helpful in understanding verses that otherwise would seem to contradict one another. For example:
Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith…it is not from works…”
James 2:24"…a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Are they contradictory??? No they are not. If someone were to hold that salvation is a moment in time rather than a process throughout our lives, then they would find them irreconcilable - like Luther. In order to attempt to reconcile them - to preserve the correct belief that Scripture cannot contradict itself - they would then abandon the plain sense of the words and offer elaborate explanations for how James is talking about something other than salvation, or that the justification that he speaks of is not really justification that relates to salvation. It gets pretty crazy. The simple truth of the matter is that they are both talking about salvation, just different aspects of salvation and those different aspects have differing criteria.
Paul, in the top verse is referring to our initial salvation (that’s why he puts it in the past tense “have been” - he’s talking to and about Christians- its a done deal). We enter into by grace through faith apart from works. We all say amen to that!
James, in the second verse,** is speaking of ongoing** salvation (that’s why he speaks of it in the present tense). It is worth noting that the context of James comments is established early on : What if a man says he has faith but has no works, can that faith save him? The context is salvation - and it is spoken of as a present and future event. And the answer is a resounding no: James 2:24"For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so faith alone - if it does not have works - is dead"
Without the ability to agree on these basics of salvation it is impossible to truly discuss the issue of “What must I do to be saved”? That is why I often attempt to steer the discussion towards “What must I do to go to Heaven”? This is often spoken of as “inheriting the Kingdom of God” and Paul is very clear in 1Cor6, Eph 5 and Gal 5 that it is not by faith alone.
Blessings!
D
davidmlamb
Guest
This was an excellent post Phil! Expounding non it even further, Paul’s Epistle to the Church at Ephesus was speaking from reference to the Mosaic Law. Under the Mosaic Law a person was considered righteous if they followed all the “works” of the law. Paul pointed out that righteousness was never obtained by the observance of the law alone but by the grace of God that comes from faith. Catholic opponants only make emphasis on Ephesians 2:8-9 but not on verse 10 which makes the entire passage take on a much more clarified understanding:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So we were created by God to do good works and grace is what enables us to do those good works. Good works is what justifies us and works is what we will be judged by:
*11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, **according to their works. ***
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man **according to their works **Rev 20:11-13.
The Bible is teaching the Catholic faith and no other gospel!
Pax Vobis.
David
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Philthy
Guest
Well thank you very much.
I like yours as well!You are spot on!
It is very important, however, to clearly articulate WHY these claims do not make the Catholic position a “works” based salvation. For (as our Protestant brethren will wonder) if it is the good works we do that contribute to our salvation, then we have “reason to boast”, no? And the answer is a resounding no! The only good works we are capable of doing are those “which God has prepared beforehand”! We “walk” in them, but God prepares them. And even choosing to walk in them is by grace! So we have no boast: the only reason we are moved to attempt them is…by grace, and the only way we can persevere in the task is…by grace (1 Cor 10:13) and the only reason they are ultimately accomplished is because God prepared them in advance for us. There simply is no boasting on our end.Amen!
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mac1234567
Guest
GO TO: www.gotquestions.org for answers!!!
also you can type how to be saved on google
also you can type how to be saved on google
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