What must I do to be saved?

[paul_c]

Let’s face it, we all sin and will be struggling with it until we die. This is why God had to take care of the punishment for us or not one person would make it to Heaven in the end. When we are born again it doesn’t mean we are made perfect instantly, only our spirit is. Our spirit is what connects us to God because He is spirit. If our spirit is dead we cannot be in relationship with God. It’s the beginning of a new life with Him, the beginning of restored relationship. I think we agree on that.

If you don’t mind, let me give you a little different perspective. The object of this life is to learn to do God’s will, which means learning to love unconditionally and avoiding sin. If you do this, you will go to heaven. You see, we must FOLLOW Jesus, and this is what he taught. Jesus will not save you just because you say that you believe in him. This belief is in fact a lie that Jesus, being God incarnate, will easily see through if you don’t actually live out those beliefs by becoming personally holy.

If all of our sin is not taken care of, then that would mean our spirit dies every time we sin, no matter what form of sin and we need a sacrifice to cover it. Jesus died and rose once and made the final sacrifice otherwise He has to be killed over and over each time someone sins and we know this is not the case.

Actually again, some different perspective. Jesus forgives ALL our prior sins when we are baptized. If we sin again and contritely ask forgiveness for those sins, he will AGAIN forgive our sins. He will in fact do this as often as we request it sacramentally. This is because of his mercy. However, he does NOT condone sin and will condemn us for sins that we don’t confess sacramentally. This is because He is just and sin offends Him, who we should love above all things.

Jesus DID sacrifice himself ONCE for the forgiveness of sins and because of this sacrifice, he can forgive any sin that he wants to. But don’t be misled. Satan loves the half truth that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, ALL our sins are forgiven including ALL future sin. Such a position means that sin has no consequence. In our heart of hearts, we all know that sin does indeed have consequence because it by definition contradicts God’s will for us.

God’s grace is manifest through His Son Jesus, who is complete. What many have a hard time grasping is the magnitude of God’s love. If a person truly grasps it and and truly makes Jesus the Lord of thier life, submitting in obedience to Him so that thier own ego no longer rules, they won’t be able to sin and trample on the gift. They would be consumed by conviction.

Absolutely true. This is the Catholic understanding.

It’s like any relationship. If you fall in love with someone because you see how deeply they love you, and then you cheat on them and treat them like they are worthless and just take advantage of them and still claim that you love them, is that love? No, of course not. That person loves themself first and is the center of their own universe. So if someone claims to love God but treats Him this way it’s pretty clear they don’t love Him and are merely using Him and have not made Him thier Lord. They are still Lord of thier own life. That doesn’t wash with God. You are either in or out, there is no in between. At the same time, you may really love someone and mess up in that relationship from time to time. If that person really loves you, wouldn’t they forgive you rather then break up with you every time you fail?

I’m with you on this. I will add that God is merciful- he will forgive you every time you sincerely ask forgiveness in the sacrament of reconciliation. But if you never ask, you will be condemned for your sin.

The only person that can cheapen God’s grace is one who doesn’t value it in the first place. If they don’t value it, they don’t know God, if they don’t know God, they have not been made alive in the spirit.

Catholics would describe this a little differently. We would say that God offers his grace to all but he also gives us all free will and some people simply choose to decline God’s graces. Why would they do that? Take it from the parable of the sower. Sometimes people succomb to Satan’s temptations, sometimes people can’t withstand the challenges that come with the Graces, sometimes people get enticed by fame, fortune or other things of the world. But some times they do follow God’s will and bear fruit.

 

[ddarko]

If all of our sin is not taken care of, then that would mean our spirit dies every time we sin, no matter what form of sin and we need a sacrifice to cover it. Jesus died and rose once and made the final sacrifice otherwise He has to be killed over and over each time someone sins and we know this is not the case.

Salvation is on going. Christ’s body is mystically united to the Church. So Christ is still persecuted every-time the church is persecuted. We also make up for the sins of others.

Col 1:24
I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.

So Christ has connected our sufferings with his on the cross. Thus, when we sin today, the penance associated with it is offered by our suffering through our tie to Christ on the cross.

God’s grace is manifest through His Son Jesus, who is complete. What many have a hard time grasping is the magnitude of God’s love. If a person truly grasps it and and truly makes Jesus the Lord of thier life, submitting in obedience to Him so that thier own ego no longer rules, they won’t be able to sin and trample on the gift. They would be consumed by conviction.
It’s like any relationship. If you fall in love with someone because you see how deeply they love you, and then you cheat on them and treat them like they are worthless and just take advantage of them and still claim that you love them, is that love? No, of course not. That person loves themself first and is the center of their own universe. So if someone claims to love God but treats Him this way it’s pretty clear they don’t love Him and are merely using Him and have not made Him thier Lord. They are still Lord of thier own life. That doesn’t wash with God. You are either in or out, there is no in between. At the same time, you may really love someone and mess up in that relationship from time to time. If that person really loves you, wouldn’t they forgive you rather then break up with you every time you fail?

Well, I think this is a good analogy and something we can work with.

LOVE is a conscious CHOICE to will the GOOD of the other.

So to say we LOVE someone is DEAD unless we DO GOOD to the other. Mere willing is not LOVE.

Now being in LOVE does not mean we will necessarily do GOOD to the other. There are many couples who break up because one of the spouses won’t stop abusing the other or won’t care about the other. They both cry about breaking up and even promise that they will change. So it means that loving acts (GOOD WORKS) do not follow because someone is simply in LOVE.

The other thing is about forgiveness. In a relationship, unless the other spouse is sorry, they cannot get back together.

Think about the case of an abusive husband. If he keeps saying sorry and comes home every-night and beats up the wife. At some point in time, she is going to have to live separately from him.

So to truly LOVE God, you have to

1. Have FAITH in his promises (Faith)
2. DO his WILL (Good Works)

When a couple stands at the altar, they promise to be faithful to each other. None of them can know for sure it’s true. But they have FAITH in each other.
In the marriage, the couple ACTS (do good works) according to the promises in a way faithful to each other. Just because they promised at the altar, it does not automatically follow that they will ACT in a good way.

So merely saying “I love you” and believing ever so deeply that “I love you” is EMPTY if I don’t back it up with acts of LOVE (good works) for you.

This is why FAITH and WORKS are both inseparably linked and important to salvation.

God Bless

 

[Leadee]

Thanks, Jim. Yes, I meant Scriptures, I should have been more clear! But I also meant “writings” in that the earliest Christians, the Apostles and their disciples, were teaching Tradition, or what we could maybe call an “oral Gospel history.”

I wish she’d told us that, it would have saved a lot of misunderstanding. I think it’s possible for the Holy Spirit to lead some Catholics on a kind of Prodigal Son type journey, so when they come back, they have made a free choice, which, if you are born into Catholicism, you may not feel as if you had, considering how early we do Confirmation now. Could be a very good thing.

Leadee, if you are reading, please come Home. You cannot find Christ in the Eucharist outside the Church. We need Him, we need Him so much to make that transformation you were speaking of.

Besides, things are dangerous out there and we need you.

Leadee, Protestants don’t pray for their deceased relatives, they think people go into some sort of Cosmic Coma at death. They abandon their loved ones in Purgatory. We need you, Leadee, we need your prayers and so do they.

Bring a few Protestants back with you.

God Bless you abundantly and the Holy Spirit lead you Home,

jules

I have not heard about the Cosmic Coma at death concept. You clearly don’t understand what protestants believe.

I can see I’ve made a big mistake trying to engage on this board because I am not being understood. I feel like I’m just stirring up anger so I’m going to stop. I only wish you all the best.

 

[PRmerger]

I have not heard about the Cosmic Coma at death concept. You clearly don’t understand what protestants believe.

I can see I’ve made a big mistake trying to engage on this board because I am not being understood. I feel like I’m just stirring up anger so I’m going to stop. I only wish you all the best.

Leadee, from what I can see, no one is angry. Please do not leave. This is exactly what CAFs is for–dialogue/discussion/debate. You propose, Catholics refute. Catholics propose, you refute.

As long as all is done in charity, there’s no reason for you to leave because you’re “stirring up anger.”

 

[Leadee]

If you don’t mind, let me give you a little different perspective. The object of this life is to learn to do God’s will, which means learning to love unconditionally and avoiding sin. If you do this, you will go to heaven. You see, we must FOLLOW Jesus, and this is what he taught. Jesus will not save you just because you say that you believe in him. This belief is in fact a lie that Jesus, being God incarnate, will easily see through if you don’t actually live out those beliefs by becoming personally holy.

Actually again, some different perspective. Jesus forgives ALL our prior sins when we are baptized. If we sin again and contritely ask forgiveness for those sins, he will AGAIN forgive our sins. He will in fact do this as often as we request it sacramentally. This is because of his mercy. However, he does NOT condone sin and will condemn us for sins that we don’t confess sacramentally. This is because He is just and sin offends Him, who we should love above all things.

Jesus DID sacrifice himself ONCE for the forgiveness of sins and because of this sacrifice, he can forgive any sin that he wants to. But don’t be misled. Satan loves the half truth that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, ALL our sins are forgiven including ALL future sin. Such a position means that sin has no consequence. In our heart of hearts, we all know that sin does indeed have consequence because it by definition contradicts God’s will for us.

Absolutely true. This is the Catholic understanding.

I’m with you on this. I will add that God is merciful- he will forgive you every time you sincerely ask forgiveness in the sacrament of reconciliation. But if you never ask, you will be condemned for your sin.

Catholics would describe this a little differently. We would say that God offers his grace to all but he also gives us all free will and some people simply choose to decline God’s graces. Why would they do that? Take it from the parable of the sower. Sometimes people succomb to Satan’s temptations, sometimes people can’t withstand the challenges that come with the Graces, sometimes people get enticed by fame, fortune or other things of the world. But some times they do follow God’s will and bear fruit.

You are a very sensible person Paul. I can see you have a very good grasp on what you believe and have thought it through. I’m impressed Your responses have helped me the most. I can see that you are trying to see it from my perspective and not just from what you know. I’m able to better understand, in a more positive way, the catholic doctrine on this matter. You are more loving then judgemental. Thanks.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I have not heard about the Cosmic Coma at death concept. You clearly don’t understand what protestants believe.

I’ve been told this by protestants again and again. In fact, the idea that our loved ones are alive - and can be prayed for efficaciously - is considered by many protestants to be heresy and against Scripture. I’ve been told by Protestants that the Catholics “put that in there” when referring to parts of Scripture that support the idea.

Now, there are 30,000 protestants sects. I am not familiar with all of them. I did go look up what some call the thing I referred to as “cosmic coma” because I don’t know all the different names for it. They sometimes call it “soul sleep.”

According to this theology, at death you are judged, going to heaven or hell, and then you are “asleep” until the “last trumpet blast” when you’ll be awakened by Jesus and will come to Earth with Him and get your resurrected, completely physical, body.

You can read about it here: christianity.about.com/od/christiandoctrines/f/whatissoulsleep.htm

I can see I’ve made a big mistake trying to engage on this board because I am not being understood.

We would have understood better if you had told us what your background was. You really can’t blame others for not understanding when you don’t give pertinent information.

Now that we know where you came from, it should be easier to figure out what it is you are in doubt about. But only if you tell us.

 

[pablope]

I’ve been told this by protestants again and again. In fact, the idea that our loved ones are alive -Now, there are 30,000 protestants sects. I am not familiar with all of them. I did go look up what some call the thing I referred to as “cosmic coma” because I don’t know all the different names for it. They sometimes call it “soul sleep.”

According to this theology, at death you are judged, going to heaven or hell, and then you are “asleep” until the “last trumpet blast” when you’ll be awakened by Jesus and will come to Earth with Him and get your resurrected, completely physical, body.

You can read about it here: christianity.about.com/od/christiandoctrines/f/whatissoulsleep.htm

. But only if you tell us.

JulieMae…soul sleep is a concept of the 7th Day Adventist, and their prophetess is Ellen G White.

From what Leedee has presented, i do not think he/she is SDA. But you are right, it would help if leedee divulged her/his religious background.

 

[Philthy]

No offense, but I don’t think Leadee is really up to the challenge intellectually to dissect her views, explore the implications of them and engage in true debate. She does seem like a very nice, sincere person though and I wish her all the best. Perhaps the best that can happen is that she has the seed planted that there is such a thing as a biblically literate Catholic who has some sound opinions which are worthy of her consideration.

 

[paul_c]

No offense, but I don’t think Leadee is really up to the challenge intellectually to dissect her views, explore the implications of them and engage in true debate. She does seem like a very nice, sincere person though and I wish her all the best. Perhaps the best that can happen is that she has the seed planted that there is such a thing as a biblically literate Catholic who has some sound opinions which are worthy of her consideration.

This is both harsh and inaccurate. Why are you being so judgemental?

 

[Julia_Mae]

JulieMae…soul sleep is a concept of the 7th Day Adventist, and their prophetess is Ellen G White.

Well, it’s a belief shared by many non-Catholic Christians today. Take the pulse of a forum like Theology Online. You know the main Protestant denominations aren’t the bulk of non-Catholic Christianity in America, these days. It’s the giant “independent” televangelist churches.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This is both harsh and inaccurate. Why are you being so judgemental?

That’s interesting, it didn’t strike me as harsh, but as a recognition that she seems a bit fragile right now. Which seemed accurate to me.

You take good care of her, paul, assuming she comes to you privately.

 

[raymond_king]

“Accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior,” or “Ask Jesus into your heart” isn’t the biblical answer.

It’s important to be saved from hell, damnation, and the stain of original sin, but what are we saved for? We are saved for union with Christ. Our salvation began when we were born again through baptism and God’s own Divine Life was restored in our souls, making us like Adam and Eve were in the Garden before the Original (first) Sin. As we go through life, we are united with Christ through the Sacraments he left as gifts for us, especially through Penance (forgiveness of our sins committed since Baptism) and the Eucharist (partaking of God’s own Life, His own Divine Nature, 2 Peter 1:4) – until that day when we are truly united with Him in heaven.

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. (For the teaching on venial (non-deadly) and mortal (deadly) sins, see 1 John 5:16-17)

What I must do to be saved:

*I must be baptized with water and the Spirit. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5, Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21. (Exceptions: [1] If I desire Baptism but die before I can be baptized with water and the Spirit, God accepts my desire to be baptized, and [2] If I am killed (martyred) because of my faith, but I have not had the opportunity to be baptized, God accepts my death as my baptism, called the Baptism of Blood).

• I must do the will of God the Father. Matthew 7:21
• I must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:17, 1 Timothy 6:14, and others.
• I must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27. Phil 1:29, and others.
• I must be a member of God’s true church. Acts 2:46-47.
• I must confess my sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9, John 20:19-23
• I must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.
• I must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16-17, 11:23-30.
• I must do unto others as I would have them do unto me and love my neighbor as myself. I must feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prison or give other aid to those in need. Luke 10:33 ff, Mt 25:31-46. “Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are very pleasing to God” Hebrews 13:16. Good works don’t save us, but we will be judged by them.

*I must strive to be holy. “Strive for peace with everyone and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” Hebrews 12:14

*I must endure (persevere) to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.

And … ? What else must I do?

What does it mean: to carry out the commandments? what is this ‘stain’? Did not salvation begin with the creation of the world? Is not jesus the forgivness of sins which we will have our opened our eyes at the resurection of the dead ray

 

[raymond_king]

What does it mean: to carry out the commandments? what is this ‘stain’? Did not salvation begin with the creation of the world? Is not jesus the forgivness of sins which we will have our opened our eyes at the resurection of the dead ray

and the beside : Does not give comedy a way of salvation: Even Steve Martin says nointing,nointin,nointing.ray

 

[fpesce]

Ephesians 2
New American Standard Bible

---

Made Alive in Christ

  1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy,because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This explains it all quite clearly.

 

[David_Castlen]

Ephesians 2
New American Standard Bible

---

Made Alive in Christ

  1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy,because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This explains it all quite clearly.

:thumbsup:Yes! Amen! Absolutely!!! and then after we are saved we must keep the commandments. Exactly!!! We are not saved by our own self but by the grace of God. Thank God for infant baptism. Thank God for the NT, “What must I do to be saved the young rich man said.” We all know the answer.

 

[fpesce]

:thumbsup:Yes! Amen! Absolutely!!! and then after we are saved we must keep the commandments. Exactly!!! We are not saved by our own self but by the grace of God. Thank God for infant baptism. Thank God for the NT, “What must I do to be saved the young rich man said.” We all know the answer.

The answer for the rich man was BEFORE Jesus died on the cross for us. Plus the verse continues in "10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. "

It shows that it is through Christ Jesus’s works not ours.

 

[David_Castlen]

The answer for the rich man was BEFORE Jesus died on the cross for us.

How in the world can one come to that conclusion. On in theology.

So when Jesus told Nicodemus that to be saved one must be born again, that was only valid BEFORE Jesus died on the cross

 

[Cruxis117]

Ephesians 2
New American Standard Bible

---

Made Alive in Christ

  1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy,because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This explains it all quite clearly.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-26[/BIBLEDRB]

That also explains it quite clearly. Look, it even mentions faith alone! Except that it says you are not saved by faith alone.

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 5:6[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 25:31-46[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]John 14:15[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:2-3[/BIBLEDRB]

I think that’s pretty clear, it’s faith and works.

 

[fpesce]

I think that’s pretty clear, it’s faith and works.

Okay, by Faith we are saved, and our works prove our faith. We don’t “do works” to be saved.

For instance, And I used this before, If a person is preached the Word and he believes, repents of his sins and truly accepts Jesus as his savior, then is so happy he runs across the street to tell his wife all about what just happened to him. But forgets to look both ways before he crosses the street and gets hit by a truck and dies.

Is this man going to heaven? He has no works yet, but he had faith. Is he saved in your opinion?

 

[David_Castlen]

Okay, by Faith we are saved, and our works prove our faith. We don’t “do works” to be saved.

For instance, And I used this before, If a person is preached the Word and he believes, repents of his sins and truly accepts Jesus as his savior, then is so happy he runs across the street to tell his wife all about what just happened to him. But forgets to look both ways before he crosses the street and gets hit by a truck and dies.

Is this man going to heaven? He has no works yet, but he had faith. Is he saved in your opinion?

Just based on the facts given, yes; just ask the criminal that died with Jesus. This is assuming he (the road kill) had the heart of love to do the works of faith. This is called Baptism of Desire. Oh I am sorry, you can not ask the criminal that died with Jesus; you guys can not talk to Saints.

But anyone that has Faith can not go to heaven without good works of love. Ask, Jesus who told the young rich man to keep the commands, to love God and love his neighbor…now I know you guys can talk to Jesus.