What must I do to be saved?

[Julia_Mae]

That’s fair enough. Are catholics allowed to even question the catholic doctrine? I know that in my present church, I am not only allowed to question something when I doesn’t seem to line up with all of scripture, I am encouraged to seek answers and ask the Holy Spirit to shed light on it.

Go to your nearest Catholic church and tell them while you really aren’t that interested in converting, but you also really want to understand and go through the RCIA process. Most Parishes will be happy for you to join the group. Then you can question away to your heart’s content.

In practice, Catholics are a contentious bunch always squabbling about some teaching or other. And we question all the time. This is a fairly conservative board but we still argue. On other forums I fight with other Catholics all the time. But not over dogma. Not because we aren’t allowed, really, but because … well, if we are Christians, we believe Jesus Christ.

Your belief that ALL Scripture must line up is wrong. Just plain and simple wrong. You cannot make it line up without adding to it. You can’t make sense of the Noah story without explaining away inconsistencies. You can’t even get through the first 10 verses of Genesis without having to add something to it to have it make sense. You don’t even have all the Scripture in your Bible, I’ll bet. Not all 77 books of the original Canon that were all part of the 1611 KJV.

The Bible is not a book, it’s a lot of different writings from disparate times and places and people that only in modern times have been bound together and only in VERY modern times are able to be read by the average person as we weren’t mostly literate until very recently. The songs don’t have to “line up” with the histories and the poems with the apocalyptic writing. That’s like saying all of Isaac Asimov’s writings should be bound together and make sense, so his text books and his fiction have to somehow be like one book. They aren’t. That’s not what the Canon is Scripture is.

What do you think all those Christians did for the first 1700 or more years with no Bibles? In the Church our faith is directly in Jesus Christ, not in any book, no matter how wonderful that may be. We encounter the Lord directly. If every Bible disappeared tomorrow and ever bit of anything anyone had written down from it, our faith would not suffer in the least.

Put that book away. God is not in there. Jesus is not in there. This is what happens to sola scriptura folks: they put so much faith in what they believe about the Book, that once a single contradiction appears that they cannot explain away, their whole faith cracks wide open.

I love Scripture, we all love Scripture, the Church is the source of the Bible you hold in such esteem. But the Bible doesn’t give us our faith, it affirms it.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

That’s fair enough. Are catholics allowed to even question the catholic doctrine? I know that in my present church, I am not only allowed to question something when I doesn’t seem to line up with all of scripture, I am encouraged to seek answers and ask the Holy Spirit to shed light on it.

The problem with this idea is that there are thousands of conflicting and competing denominations with thousands of conflicting and competing doctrines, all based on the same 66-book version of the Bible cut by Martin Luther, but no two of them agree about what the Bible means. They each claim to teach the absolute biblical truth, and all of them further claim that they were each led to “all truth” by the same Holy Spirit.:whacky: How do you explain that?

Since the Holy Spirit clearly isn’t leading them, what makes you think He’s leading you?

You ignored my statements about the history of the Bible in my post #781. Why?

You must see that your biblical interpretation is of your own making, and the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with it.

Poor maligned Holy Spirit! Accused of misleading all those thousands of denominations with their millions of members whose beliefs result from their own private and personal interpretation of the Bible, just like yours!

The Catholic Church is where the Holy Spirit resides. We have Christ’s word on it. John 14:16-18, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-15.

Jim Dandy

 

[Leadee]

Leadee, do you understand this issue at least now?

Please REPLY. You are making a logically consistent interpretation of Scripture. THAT IS ONE of INFINITELY possible interpretations.

So just because you have a consistent view does not make it TRUE.

To answer which is true, you have to step outside of mere Theology and look at Church history. Do you get that?

And honestly even in terms of theology, your position is a bit absurd. You can’t make Jesus the “lord of your life” without doing GOOD WORKS. So to make Jesus Lord of your life, you must

1. Have FAITH in him
2. DO the FATHERS WILL (i.e. GOOD WORKS)

You can’t just say “I HAVE FAITH THAT JESUS IS THE LORD OF MY LIFE” and that is sufficient.
Even Demons believe that Jesus has perfect control of his creation

God Bless

The demons believe in Jesus but they don’t accept Him as Lord. I’m really getting frustrated because I’m not saying that we are not to do good works. We ARE to do good works but our salvation is not based on those good works. They are the evidence of the Holy Spirit in us. I didn’t make this up, it’s in the Word of God. You can keep striving to please God in your own efforts and I’ll continue to rest in the work of Christ and serve Him from my heart. Hope we meet in heaven someday

 

[Leadee]

SERIOUSLY LEADEEE,

you are like a broken record. HOW THE HECK DO YOU KNOW THE ABOVE?

That is the question you and your protestant buddies don’t answer.

SO PLEASE, answer the question.

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST ACCOMPLISHED ANYTHING?

God Bless

What?? You don’t believe Jesus accomlished anything? Are we reading the same book called the bible? He gave up everything for you and me!! He came down from Heaven and became one of us, He was despised, rejected, beaten, and crucified. He was the perfect blameless sacrifice for our sins. He then rose from the dead so that we could join him in Life. I hate to break it to you but you can work all the days of your life at being a “good” person but that won’t get you into heaven. Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life. Those are His own words, not mine. God bless. I hope you find freedom in Christ some day.

 

[Leadee]

Leadee,

You certainly have been bombarded with tons of information and I admire you for hanging in there trying to respond to all of it to the best of your ability.

Trying my best to simplify all of this to the best of my ability I pose this short paragraph for your consideration. Before responding to it, you might want to take some time and think it over.

Simply, faith alone does not have the power of saving man for two reasons:

1. The first reason is that infants are capable of justification, which we suppose no one will deny, but infants are not capable of an act of faith.
2. The second reason is that faith is a temporary virtue. That’s right Leadee, faith is “temporary”! Faith is temporary because it ceases when we enter heaven. When we enter heaven, we don’t need faith anymore. We are forever sealed in God’s eternal love. Of the three virtues of faith, hope and charity only charity, love, will remain in eternity. Faith will no longer be necessary whereas the principle of justification is permanent and eternal.

I hope this little explanation will be helpful for you.

Really good points

I’d just like to clarify that it’s not our faith that saves us, it’s the *object *of that faith that saves us.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

The demons believe in Jesus but they don’t accept Him as Lord. I’m really getting frustrated because I’m not saying that we are not to do good works. We ARE to do good works but our salvation is not based on those good works. They are the evidence of the Holy Spirit in us. I didn’t make this up, it’s in the Word of God. You can keep striving to please God in your own efforts and I’ll continue to rest in the work of Christ and serve Him from my heart. Hope we meet in heaven someday

Oh, but Leadee, your salvation is based on your good works. It requires f aith plus works. You don’t believe the Bible – you believe your personal interpretation of it. That’s very dangerous. We have quoted you many verses from the NT about the necessity of good works for salvation, but you are wearing blinders. I’m concerned about your soul.

We don’t try to please God by our own efforts. We don’t work our way into heaven. All that we do is enabled by the GRACE OF GOD. It is by his power that we are enabled to do the will of His Father – the good works that He created us to do – and, we pray, persevere to the end.

Jim Dandy

 

[ddarko]

The demons believe in Jesus but they don’t accept Him as Lord.

EXACTLY!!!

To accept him as Lord, one must DO his will.

To do God’s will is to DO GOOD WORKS.

I’m really getting frustrated because I’m not saying that we are not to do good works. We ARE to do good works but our salvation is not based on those good works.

And that is FALSE.

Because Demons also had FAITH in the sense of mental belief that you put. They just never do any works and thus they loose salvation.

They are the evidence of the Holy Spirit in us. I didn’t make this up, it’s in the Word of God.

According to the interpretation of Leadee.

This goes back to interpreting the Bible again. Lets face it Leadee. All we have here is you, someone random, claiming that Bible claims faith apart from works leads to salvation.

Why should ANYONE including YOURSELF believe in your interpretation of it?

You can keep striving to please God in your own efforts and I’ll continue to rest in the work of Christ and serve Him from my heart. Hope we meet in heaven someday

Well in your view, you are definitely going to heaven. There is no need to ‘word out your salvation with fear and trembling’.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

What?? You don’t believe Jesus accomlished anything? Are we reading the same book called the bible?

I AM ASKING why the heck are you reading the Bible? Why not the Koran which also mentions Christ?

Why not a book that Maluther next door might write tomorrow that talks about a different Christ?

He gave up everything for you and me!! He came down from Heaven and became one of us, He was despised, rejected, beaten, and crucified. He was the perfect blameless sacrifice for our sins.

And you know this how?

He then rose from the dead so that we could join him in Life. I hate to break it to you but you can work all the days of your life at being a “good” person but that won’t get you into heaven.

I hate to break it to you, but neither will your mental assent the Jesus is Lord of your life get you to heaven if you don’t do GOOD WORKS.

Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life. Those are His own words, not mine. God bless. I hope you find freedom in Christ some day.

How do you KNOW those are his words? Did you see him say this? OR do you BELIEVE HIS APOSTLES?

Seriously, I am getting a bit annoyed with you. You are purposefully going in circles, perhaps afraid of the truth.

You have no foundation to believe in the Bible if you don’t believe in the Apostles. If you DO believe in the Apostles, you should listen to them even NOW.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

…

LEADEE,

Please answer to my Post #821 and Post #823

I have linked them above for your convenience.

Answering posts I made three days ago while the conversation has passed that point is useless. I am not interested in getting to a THEOLOGICAL debate with you because I think it’s moot. You have no other criterion to judge your interpretation other than Logical Consistency which is NOT an indicator of truth.

So we need to start from the foundations for believing in Scripture or anything which RIGHT NOW you and your protestants lack.

Please read what I wrote in the above posts and quit making this a theological debate. The question to answer now, is who has authority.

God Bless

 

[acatnamedorangy]

So here is a question about being saved, how serious is doctrine? Considering converting to Catholicism but I am divorced and not willing to have repair surgery from when I was sterilized. My marriage and divorce were bad enough I don’t think an annulment would be hard and I am sterilized due to life and death medical problems. So how serious is it? Can I be Catholic? and if I can, What must I do to be saved?

 

[davidmlamb]

So here is a question about being saved, how serious is doctrine? Considering converting to Catholicism but I am divorced and not willing to have repair surgery from when I was sterilized. My marriage and divorce were bad enough I don’t think an annulment would be hard and I am sterilized due to life and death medical problems. So how serious is it? Can I be Catholic? and if I can, What must I do to be saved?

You do not need to be unsterilized to be Catholic so this is not an impediment for you to enter the Church. Your faith is already leading you to salvation you just need to continue to be guided by your faith which is moving you to the Church. All you need to do now is enter RCIA and learn about the Catholic faith, join the local Catholic parish, get counseling from the Pastor their and God will work out everything for you. Continue in your faith life and the grace of God will lead you.

Peace of God in Christ be with you,

David

 

[QuickCat]

And, as I always remind you and others, the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. That is history. That cannot be denied. Christ founded the Church; the Church in turn wrote the NT and compiled and named the Bible. If you would pay attention to the beginning of each ‘book,’ you would see that the NT was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics. It was not written for those outside the Church. It is not a systematic instruction book in Christianity, as Protestants – you included – try to make it. The NT is the written record of the spiritual live of the newborn Catholic Church for the first 50 years or so after she was founded by Jesus Christ.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher and guaranteed that she would teach the TRUTH always. He never instructed anyone to write anything. The NT can’t be understood correctly unless it’s read in the context of the believing, teaching Church who wrote it.

Jim Dandy

Jim: The N.T. is not a Catholic book! It is mostly written to and for Israel. Now you can Judaize the Church, but that won’t wash. You still don’t understand that the 4 gospels record our Lord’s earthly ministry to Israel and the promise of the fulfillment of the O.T. prophecy for Israel’s earthly kingdom. You take Scriptures written to and for Israel and attempt to make them fit the Body of Christ, but they don’t fit. Peter and the 12 were sent to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. Our lord told them that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in this kingdom. As we leave the gospels and the last 40 days of the Lord’s ministry we find Him teaching them about this kingdom from the prophets, psalms and the Law of Moses. They ask Him, just before His ascention, “Will you AT THIS TIME RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?” Peter, in the first 5 chapters of Acts addresses ONLY Israel in his speeches. He presents our Lord as a "Prince and a Savior… to Israel. You must either ignore the fact that Peter and the 12 are apostles to the circumcision or “spiritualize” all those Scriptures to try to make them fit your scheme of things. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. The risen, exalted Lord revealed the Body of Christ to him. Paul speaks of this Body in Eph…3:1-9 and identifies the Lord Jesus Christ as the Head of the Body. Further, Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God and tells believers that they were baptized into the one Body upon believing this gospel of the grace of God.

 

[QuickCat]

Leadee, We show our love of God by our faith and our love of neighbor by our works. Both are required for salvation. See Mt 25:31-46 and James 2:24, among many other verses in Scripture.

And, as I always remind you and others, the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. That is history. That cannot be denied. Christ founded the Church; the Church in turn wrote the NT and compiled and named the Bible. If you would pay attention to the beginning of each ‘book,’ you would see that the NT was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics. It was not written for those outside the Church. It is not a systematic instruction book in Christianity, as Protestants – you included – try to make it. The NT is the written record of the spiritual live of the newborn Catholic Church for the first 50 years or so after she was founded by Jesus Christ.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher and guaranteed that she would teach the TRUTH always. He never instructed anyone to write anything. The NT can’t be understood correctly unless it’s read in the context of the believing, teaching Church who wrote it.

Jim Dandy

 

[QuickCat]

Leadee, We show our love of God by our faith and our love of neighbor by our works. Both are required for salvation. See Mt 25:31-46 and James 2:24, among many other verses in Scripture.

Jim: Mt 25:31-46 has to do with our Lord’s 2nd advent. He comes to judge the nations. The basis for this judgment is how the nations treated Israel [vs 40]. At this time our Lord will set up that kingdom that the O.T. prophets foretold. Note vs 34. This kingdom was prepared “From the foundation of the world.” By way of contrast, believers, in the Body of Christ were “Chosen in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world” [Eph. 1:4]. You will recall that the two men in white told the 11 that our Lord would return in like manner as they have seen Him ascend [Acts 1:9-11]. Zechariah 14:4 records that He will, in that day, stand upon the Mount of Olives. Verse 9 reveals that He will be king over all the earth in that day. BTW, had you noticed that the 11 made it their first order of business, after the ascension of the Lord, to bring their number back up to 12 [Acts 1:15-26]? Why would this be so important to them?
James, probably the earliest book written during the period covered by the book of Acts, is addressed to the “Twelve tribes of Israel.” Israel, at this time is still under the Law! James, an apostle to the circumcision, is writing to Jews in their synagogue – note 2:2, the word “assembly” is συναγωγη sunagoge soon-ag-o-gay. Note also vs 10, the Law. God required “works” of faith under the Law. We live in the dispensation of the GRACE of God as Paul writes in Ephesians 3:2. Paul, NOW tells us that we are “saved unto good works” not by good works – Ephesians 2:10; Quite a difference between Israel’s kingdom and the Body of Christ.

 

[Julia_Mae]

What must I do to be saved?

I thought I’d give you the simple answer to this one aside from the marriage sterility issue:

Love God and seek to do His will.

That’s all any of us have to do, really.

I was called to the Church by the Holy Spirit. I had no idea what it meant to be Catholic when I answered that call. Take courage, walk into the Parish office and ask the question. Then God takes over and it’s all a wonderful ride.

I’m sort of jealous. I’d love to do it all over again. (Took me a few years to work up my nerve, BTW.)

 

[Julia_Mae]

Jim: The N.T. is not a Catholic book! It is mostly written to and for Israel. Now you can Judaize the Church, but that won’t wash. You still don’t understand…* etc…*.

This is off-topic and entirely wrong. Start a thread about it if you want to understand Catholic teaching about these issues.

Please stop proselytizing on this forum.

 

[QuickCat]

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher and guaranteed that she would teach the TRUTH always. He never instructed anyone to write anything. The NT can’t be understood correctly unless it’s read in the context of the believing, teaching Church who wrote it.

Jim Dandy

Jim: Sir Robert Anderson tells of a conversation with a young Rabbi who was a student of the N.T. . The Rabbi said to Sir Robert, “It wasn’t Jesus who founded the Church [meaning the Body of Christ] it was your apostle Paul.” Sir Robert replied, “There is a truth there that Christendom has let slip.” The Body of Christ was first revealed to Paul. The great doctrines for this Body are in Paul’s epistles. Matthew is perhaps the most Jewish of epistles. It opens with the question, “Where is He that is born King of the Jews” [2:2] and covers the earthly ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ to Israel. Mt. 16 is an excellent example of this ministry. In vs 13 our Lord identifies Himself as the “Son of man….” This title is never used of Him in His relationship to the heavenly Body of Christ. It is always used in His relationship to Israel and the earth. In vs. 16 He mentions a “church.” In context this would be the assembly in the kingdom foretold for Israel on the earth. He gives Peter the “keys of the kingdom,” not the keys to the Body of Christ. In preparation for the coming of this kingdom and the role of the apostles in this kingdom, He gives great authority [vs. 19], see also 18:18 and John 20:21-23. Our Lord proceeds to give the apostles the assurance of their roles in this kingdom. Note Mt. 19:28: These twelve will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. This will occur when the Lord Jesus Christ sits on His throne in the “regeneration.” As we come into the book of Acts we find the Lord teaching the 11 about this kingdom from the prophets, Psalms, and Law of Moses [Acts 1:3; Luke 24:25-27; 45-49]. Notice that the Lord “Opened their [the 11] understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. Since He had taught them about this kingdom, they ask the logical question, “Will you, at this time, restore again the kingdom to Israel” [Acts 1:6]? The one thing He had not told them was the time element. It is important to notice that the 11 were told by the men in white that the Lord would return “in like manner” [to the earth – Zech. 14:4] as He had left. He will return to the Mount of Olives. In anticipation of this event the 11 make it their first order of business to bring their number back up to 12 [Acts 1:15-26]. And in Acts 3:19-21 Peter actually offers the return of the Lord contingent upon Israel’s repentance and conversion. All of Peter’s speeches in early Acts are addressed to Israel – Notice: Acts 2:14,22,36; 3:12; 4:10; 5:31 where he presents the Lord Jesus Christ to be a Prince and Savior to Israel. BTW, in his speeches he presents the cross as bad news in that he accuses the Jews of murdering their Messiah. QC

 

[ddarko]

Jim: The N.T. is not a Catholic book! It is mostly written to and for Israel. Now you can Judaize the Church, but that won’t wash. You still don’t understand that the 4 gospels record our Lord’s earthly ministry to Israel and the promise of the fulfillment of the O.T. prophecy for Israel’s earthly kingdom. You take Scriptures written to and for Israel and attempt to make them fit the Body of Christ, but they don’t fit. Peter and the 12 were sent to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. Our lord told them that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in this kingdom. As we leave the gospels and the last 40 days of the Lord’s ministry we find Him teaching them about this kingdom from the prophets, psalms and the Law of Moses. They ask Him, just before His ascention, “Will you AT THIS TIME RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?” Peter, in the first 5 chapters of Acts addresses ONLY Israel in his speeches. He presents our Lord as a "Prince and a Savior… to Israel. You must either ignore the fact that Peter and the 12 are apostles to the circumcision or “spiritualize” all those Scriptures to try to make them fit your scheme of things. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. The risen, exalted Lord revealed the Body of Christ to him. Paul speaks of this Body in Eph…3:1-9 and identifies the Lord Jesus Christ as the Head of the Body. Further, Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God and tells believers that they were baptized into the one Body upon believing this gospel of the grace of God.

You are missing the point.

The question to YOU and other non-Catholic Christians who claim to follow Christ is HOW and from WHERE do you know about Christ?

Is it from the Bible? Then how did you know the Bible is the right book? Why not the Koran?

Is it not true that the reason you believe the Bible is because it contains teachings of Apostles AND successive Apostles taught that it contained the word of God?

Now is it not true then that it make zero sense to listen to the Apostles on things you like and just discard their teachings when you don’t agree with them?

Therefore, right now every single non-Catholic Christian is doing something irrational. They love the Bible but hate the Apostles i.e. The Catholic Church.

Now don’t give me a bunch of Biblical quotes. Answer the questions.

God Bless

 

[davidmlamb]

That doesn’t really sound like good news to me!:So the gospel is the power of God for salvation. What is this gospel?:

The gospel is exactly what we have been saying all along and yes it is good news! God has empowered us with grace to live out our lives in obedience to His will. Our response to grace is good works that God has called us to do (Ephes 2:10). The Good News IS NOT that Christ has excused our sinfulness so that we can do whatever we think will make us happy. The Good news is we have been set free from the slavery of sin and death to be slaves to Christ and righteousness (Rom 6:17-19) and bear fruit that will last (John 15). That my friend is BIBLE ONLY!.

So this is the gospel. To be saved, I must believe this? I believe Paul would answer in the affirmative::

Believing is not made complete until it is accompanied by works.

*Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:21-24 *

Paul seems to have left out a lot of your list, Mr. Dandy.You wouldn’t happen to be a Judaizer, would you?:

Nope! Catholics do not practice Judaism, We practice the only gospel the bible is teaching, the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

I have noticed some Catholics whipping out James 2 as a peremptory strike against us sola fide-ists. I applaud your foresight. And I agree with you. We are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never truly alone.:

This is psychobable! If saving faith is truly not alone then we are truly not saved by faith alone period! You have introduced an oxymoron. Its like saying “Hey the food is free but make sure you pay at the door.”

As Paul said, we are saved by faith (Ephesians 2:8), but we are saved to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). So, yes, works are important. However, they come after salvation by grace through faith since it is actually God working in us to perform what is pleasing to Him (Phil. 2:13; Hebrews 13:21).:

Catholics do not teach that we work first and then comes faith. Catholics believe that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephes 2:8-9). Grace is the power and influence God has on the heart and soul of a person that transforms them into new creations (2 Cor 5:17) and empowers them to do the good works God has called us to do (Ephes 2:10). Hence, we continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who works in us to will and to act according to his good purpose (Phil 2:12-14).

Peace, David

 

[QuickCat]

And, as I always remind you and others, the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. That is history. That cannot be denied. Christ founded the Church; the Church in turn wrote the NT and compiled and named the Bible. If you would pay attention to the beginning of each ‘book,’ you would see that the NT was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics. It was not written for those outside the Church. It is not a systematic instruction book in Christianity, as Protestants – you included – try to make it. The NT is the written record of the spiritual live of the newborn Catholic Church for the first 50 years or so after she was founded by Jesus Christ.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher and guaranteed that she would teach the TRUTH always. He never instructed anyone to write anything. The NT can’t be understood correctly unless it’s read in the context of the believing, teaching Church who wrote it.

Jim Dandy

???