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QuickCat
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Good post! God saves us and the Holy Spirit seals us - can’t beat that! 1 Cor 15:1-4; Eph 1:13.
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RevG
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Maybe I am mis-speaking here, but I am pretty sure that you are mis-representing the “Protestant” teaching on salvation. I am sorry that as a Catholic you do not read Scripture and beleive what God has said about the security of those who have overcome this world by faith (1 JN 5) Scripture is very clear that for those who know the Son of God they can Know they have eternal life. But I digress, If you plan to mis-represent the “Protestant” belief please describe which ones you wish to dispute, Baptist? Church of Christ? Presbyterian? Then please do some research and give an honest representation of what they believe and not the rubbish you just gave. Maybe its just my opinion though
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RevG
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I see there is a serious lack of research in some posts when we attribute double predestination to Calvin so that we can drop a big name when it was Augustine who most likely first birthed the idea and just to be honest Calvinism wasn’t started by Calvin is was started by the Synod of Dort
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Church_Militant
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That Judaizer crack is uncharitable and uncalled for. If you cannot follow the Forum Rules you agreed to when you joined CAF, perhaps you need to rethink your posting here.
As for the answer to the OP’s initial post. I will offer a Bible study article from my own blog that sums it up. How Is A Catholic Saved?
That might satisfy you, but it simply ignores the context of the rest of the New Testament, which contains very clear passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 3:5 which are relevant (as is most of the New Testament) to the issue of salvation.
New winds of doctrines of modern men? Okay…
You really should carefully read the passages that you cite. Look here at what verse 2 of your citation plainly says.[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 15:1-2[/bibledrb]
It would be hard to misrepresent Protestant teaching around here, since you guys are always coming by to supposedly correct us, even though most of you cannot agree even with each other, even as to what is a “core belief’”.
What is this gospel of yours then? Is it The Four Spiritual Laws? Or The Romans Road? Or is it something else again?
I have a blog article that speaks to this issue. Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
Furthermore, most every Catholic on here is very much involved in reading the Bible (all 73 books of it!) and it has been my experience that we hear at least as much, if not more, scripture during Mass than any n-C service I was in over the 30+ years I was among you Southern Baptists or Assembly of God types, so don’t try to play us off as a bunch of scripture ignorant Catholics because that just won’t wash, not to mention that it’s condescending and insulting. I find that I know the Bible as well as and most times better than the n-Cs I encounter.
Here are 2 threads where I have surveyed CAF members about their Bible reading just for instance.
Poll: Catholics and the Bible:Update.
Poll: Catholics: When did you last read the Bible?
It doesn’t much matter either way since, excellent as he was in most things, St. Augustine’s writings are not infallible doctrinal statements. His thoughts and writings are helpful, but even if he did espouse predestination, the Magisterium have the final say, not Augustine, though they certainly read and consider his writings.
Fact is that most modern Calvinists don’t even believe the same things that Calvin did, which to Catholics is kinda weird… Take note: Pillars of reformation on Mary
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David_Castlen
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No, the Islamic faith is the first that started the idea of predestination.
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David_Castlen
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No, the Islamic faith is the first that started the idea of predestination.
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01010101010101
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Luke 23: 42
Then he said, “Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Then he said, “Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
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Isaiah45_9
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Why must we always need a checklist?..
If we follow a checklist we probably have the wrong intentions at heart. Salvation is a lifelong process that has been given to us by the Grace of our Lord. Obedience to Him is to be done at all times and when we fail we repent, confess and we will be renewed.
Because you have done things in your checklist does not mean you are saved. Your life is not yours, it belongs to Christ. We must give our life to Him and be obedient in His Word, we will fall but we must get back up in His strength and have Faith (Trust) in Him. Faith is a lifelong process as well, it is not a one time deal.
So, in short, there is nothing you can do to be saved. Jesus Christ did it for all of us. What we must do is receive our Lord’s Grace and have Faith and be obedient in Him by showing it in our works, that must be consistent with His teachings.
God Bless You.
If we follow a checklist we probably have the wrong intentions at heart. Salvation is a lifelong process that has been given to us by the Grace of our Lord. Obedience to Him is to be done at all times and when we fail we repent, confess and we will be renewed.
Because you have done things in your checklist does not mean you are saved. Your life is not yours, it belongs to Christ. We must give our life to Him and be obedient in His Word, we will fall but we must get back up in His strength and have Faith (Trust) in Him. Faith is a lifelong process as well, it is not a one time deal.
So, in short, there is nothing you can do to be saved. Jesus Christ did it for all of us. What we must do is receive our Lord’s Grace and have Faith and be obedient in Him by showing it in our works, that must be consistent with His teachings.
God Bless You.
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Philthy
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There are a number of aspects involved in what we call “salvation”.I have always inferred that that last part of getting “saved” was going to heaven? Straighten me out.
I like to think of them as stages. There is the initial stage of salvation, and it is usually referred to as being “born again” or getting saved. Then there is the long intermediate stage of back and forth, in sin out of sin, faithful and doubtful, journey of salvation we call sanctification or simply the Christian walk. It is important to point out that neither of these stages guarantees that one will, at the conclusion of their life, be judged worthy of going to Heaven. Being judged worthy and prepared to be in the unveiled presence of God almighty for all eternity is the final stage of salvation. Some Christians during the intermediate stage of salvation - walking the walk - will lose faith, lose hope and ultimately fail to love. Rather than “stay awake” they fall into a false sense of security, they fall for the lures of the world, they stop “running the race” they fail to bear fruit and, ultimately, are “thrown into the fire”. There are excellent examples of just this behavior in Eph 5, Gal 5 and 1Cor 6. Paul tells them flat out in each of these separate letters that certain actions they are engaging in jeopardize their inheritance in the Kingdom of God.
He tells the Galatians who are trying to be justified by being circumcised that “You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
He tells the Corinthians, "Now indeed (then) it is, in any case, a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated? Instead, you inflict injustice and cheat, and this to brothers. Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?
He tells the Ephesians, “Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,…Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
All of these letters are addressed to “saved” Christians and he is warning them that their behavior is placing their “final” salvation in jeopardy.
Conclusion: Completing the intial stage of salvation (confessing, repenting, being born again) does not guarantee that you will not “fall from grace” during the intermediate stage (trials of this life) and ultimately lose your inheritance in the Kingdom of God (ie Heaven) at the final stage.
Got it straight now?
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RevG
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Dear Sir,
Augustine lived several hundred years prior to Muhammad (the guy who started the Islamic faith) and if you will read some of his writings then his espousing of predestination is clear
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RevG
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It is obviously very easy to misrepresent Protestant views since it was done. Just because you chose to ignore certain plans of salvation does not negate their worth. You avoidance of the passage I cited in 1Jn 5 does however speak to why you take issue with them.It would be hard to misrepresent Protestant teaching around here, since you guys are always coming by to supposedly correct us, even though most of you cannot agree even with each other, even as to what is a “core belief’”.
What is this gospel of yours then? Is it The Four Spiritual Laws? Or The Romans Road? Or is it something else again?
I have a blog article that speaks to this issue. Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
Furthermore, most every Catholic on here is very much involved in reading the Bible (all 73 books of it!) and it has been my experience that we hear at least as much, if not more, scripture during Mass than any n-C service I was in over the 30+ years I was among you Southern Baptists or Assembly of God types, so don’t try to play us off as a bunch of scripture ignorant Catholics because that just won’t wash, not to mention that it’s condescending and insulting. I find that I know the Bible as well as and most times better than the n-Cs I encounter.
Here are 2 threads where I have surveyed CAF members about their Bible reading just for instance.
Poll: Catholics and the Bible:Update.
Poll: Catholics: When did you last read the Bible?
It doesn’t much matter either way since, excellent as he was in most things, St. Augustine’s writings are not infallible doctrinal statements. His thoughts and writings are helpful, but even if he did espouse predestination, the Magisterium have the final say, not Augustine, though they certainly read and consider his writings.
Fact is that most modern Calvinists don’t even believe the same things that Calvin did, which to Catholics is kinda weird… Take note: Pillars of reformation on Mary
I am not even going to touch your mentioning of the number of books in Scripture, that is for another place. But I will mention that the Magisterium is not in Scripture but God is, and Scripture says that it is the Holy Spirit who leads us not the Magisterium, but I am sure you knew that since you read your Bible.
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DoriAndBubba
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bread, sacrifice???May I suggest “Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharits” Unlocking the Secrets of the Last Suppoer, by Brant Pitre. This has been for me the most enligting piece of history I have read in a long long time. As you know, when reading scripture not only reading it in context but understanding it as one would have understood the words of that time are very important. This (dear Lord don’t let me sell it short) book will put you in the mind of a 1st century Jew; a 1st century rabbi. You will know what he thought when he heard words like manna, bread, sacrifice. You will better understand what a sacrifice is. You will find the answer to why drinking the blood of animals is a sin but not of God. You will understand that there was and is to be a sacrifice (offering may be a better word) forever. The most important facit of this book is its extensive proofs not only a plethera of scripture but jewish supporting writings of the ancient and 1st century.
Please get this book
Do you mean blood sacrifice?
When Jesus is called the Lamb of God in John 1:29 and John 1:36, it is referring to Him as the perfect and ultimate sacrifice for sin. In order to understand who Christ was and what He did, we must begin with the Old Testament, which contains prophecies concerning the coming of Christ as a “guilt offering” (Isaiah 53:10). In fact, the whole sacrificial system established by God in the Old Testament set the stage for the coming of Jesus Christ, who is the perfect sacrifice God would provide as atonement for the sins of His people (Romans 8:3; Hebrews 10).
The sacrifice of lambs played a very important role in the Jewish religious life and sacrificial system. When John the Baptist referred to Jesus as the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), the Jews who heard him might have immediately thought of any one of several important sacrifices. With the time of the Passover feast being very near, the first thought might be the sacrifice of the Passover lamb. The Passover feast was one of the main Jewish holidays and a celebration in remembrance of God’s deliverance of the Israelites from bondage in Egypt. In fact, the slaying of the Passover lamb and the applying of the blood to doorposts of the houses (Exodus 12:11-13) is a beautiful picture of Christ’s atoning work on the cross. Those for whom He died are covered by His blood, protecting us from the angel of (spiritual) death.
Another important sacrifice involving lambs was the daily sacrifice at the temple in Jerusalem. Every morning and evening, a lamb was sacrificed in the temple for the sins of the people (Exodus 29:38-42). These daily sacrifices, like all others, were simply to point people towards the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross. In fact, the time of Jesus’ death on the cross corresponds to the time the evening sacrifice was being made in the temple. The Jews at that time would have also been familiar with the Old Testament prophets Jeremiah and Isaiah, who foretold the coming of One who would be brought “like a lamb led to the slaughter” (Jeremiah 11:19; Isaiah 53:7) and whose sufferings and sacrifice would provide redemption for Israel. Of course, that person was none other than Jesus Christ, “the Lamb of God.”
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Ana_v
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Also, there’s the conversation between Jesus and the rich man (Matt 19:16-23):
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I remember back in my Protestant period of time, this passage troubled me because it sounded too much like works plays a role in a person’s salvation. And of course, for Protestants that’s a big theological no-no.
I recall that one of the Protestant explanations I came across, that attempted to reconcile this passage with the Faith Alone doctrine, argued that Jesus told the rich man what he did, because in doing so, the rich man would realize he was incapable of meeting Jesus’s standard, realize that his works will necessarily fall short, and thereby realize his need for a savior and not “works righteousness”.
In other words, the argument was that Jesus’ endorsement of following the commandments to enter heaven, was rhetorical.
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DoriAndBubba
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The Bible never talks about rituals. Those were added to the Catholic religion. The term “Asking Jesus into your heart” is not in the Bible either. I personally don’t like that term.
In Eph 2 Paul call’s Salvation a gift. What do you have to do for a gift to be yours? Accept it!
Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
We can “be the perfect us we can be” all we want, but is it perfect enough to enter Heaven?
In Relelation it says not even one lie will enter into Heaven. I don’t know about you, but I’ve told a few in my life. Psalms says evil will not dwell with God.
Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Psalm 3:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
Jesus died on the cross for our sins. It is offered to us as a gift, all we have to to is accept it. There is no other option in the New Testiment for Salvation.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
BTW, we do have assurance of salvation.
The Bible tells you that you do.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may** know **that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
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pablope
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Very catholic of you…
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Church_Militant
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Maybe it would help lots if Protestants had a single authority speaking for them all. Oh, wait…you guys can’t do that, can you. Like I said…you can’t even agree on what you guys refer to as “core doctrines” and your supposed authority (Sola Scriptura) cannot be supported from the very Bible that you guys try to teach it from.I know that many of you will assert that the Bible is self interpreting, but that’s not only not true and unscriptural itself, but it doesn’t even work in practice, again, because no one is in authority. (Oh, I know…God is, and Catholics would agree, but when a bunch of modern men depart from sound doctrine and teach new things that are odd and errant interpretations of scripture…)
I never said I ignore anything, but I’m glad you had a good time whacking at that straw man argument there.
I disagree with your assertion of their worth, since they do not accurately represent the Gospel of salvation that is found in the context of the New Testament. As my linked article above points out, they do, in fact, offer a new, oversimplified, and deficient salvation message that has been plucked from the Word of God. Compared to the salvation message one finds in actually reading the New Testament, it really does present a different gospel.:sad_yes:
Catholics have no problem with your citation of scripture and agree completely with everything it says.
[bibledrb]1 John 5:1-21[/bibledrb]
The big problem for your gospel is that this very passage declares the vital part that works play in our salvation right there in verses 2 & 3. Context proves that there is more to Christian salvation than most n-Cs are willing to accept and pass on. Why? Is it too clearly Catholic?
If so, then what does that tell you about n-C salvation messages in general, like the tracts I linked above?Not a problem, but here again, Sola Scriptura fails to address even the simple matter of the Bible’s table of contents and does not tell you what writings are inspired and belong and what do not. That being the case, it proves logically that God established a church with the infallible authority and guidance of His Spirit to discern which writings were inspired and assemble and protect them accordingly.
So? Magisterium is not found in scripture anymore than Trinity is, and yet the concepts are very implicitly taught in the New Testament in places like Matthew 28:18-20.[bibledrb]Matthew 28:18-20[/bibledrb]
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fpesce
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I am sorry David Castlen, I waited purposely from answering this question to give other people a chance to answer. I was a bit dissapointed there wasn’t any replies. But to answer your question:
To determine what the true intent of the verse, we must go to the original text which was written in greek. The greek work used here for being “saved” was “Sozo”.
“Sozo” means to be made whole, which is commonly used in the bible to receive healing, not salvation.
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fpesce
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How about letting Holy Spirit be our one and only guide. Totally infallable and full of love. Who loves us with an everlasting love. Who desires above all that everyone should be saved!
Don’t put you faith in man, but in GOD!
Don’t put you faith in man, but in GOD!
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David_Castlen
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All of these letters are addressed to “saved” Christians and he is warning them that their behavior is placing their “final” salvation in jeopardy.
Conclusion: Completing the intial stage of salvation (confessing, repenting, being born again) does not guarantee that you will not “fall from grace” during the intermediate stage (trials of this life) and ultimately lose your inheritance in the Kingdom of God (ie Heaven) at the final stage.
Got it straight now?
Got it straight now
Conclusion: Completing the intial stage of salvation (confessing, repenting, being born again) does not guarantee that you will not “fall from grace” during the intermediate stage (trials of this life) and ultimately lose your inheritance in the Kingdom of God (ie Heaven) at the final stage.
Got it straight now?
Got it straight now
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David_Castlen
Guest
Ambiguity wins the day! Augustine believed that (yes) there is predestination; but not as the Calvinist or Islam. Augustine believed that there were those predestined to salvation; Mary, that there were those predestined to doing wrong; Pharaoh, but he did not believe there were those predestined to hell as do Calvinist and some of the Islamic faith.
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