What must I do to be saved?

[QuickCat]

??? To what?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Quick Cat wrote:

Mr. Dandy: Were you saved as a Baptist? How much Bible doctrine did you learn in the Baptist Church? Are you saved now that you are Catholic? Are you learning more Bible doctrine as a Catholic? What was your motivation to convert to Catholicism? Thanks,
QC

Jim Dandy****
I look forward to your response****

Now that I know true, original Christianity, before it was splintered and mistaught in multiple ways by Protestants, I can tell you that no, I was not “saved” as a Baptist. I thought I was saved, when I “accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior” and “asked Jesus to come into my heart,” But now I see that the NT teaches that salvation is not instantaneous**; **it is a lifetime process. “He who perseveres to the end will be saved” Mt 10:22, Mk 13:13. I have assurance of my salvation as a Catholic as long as I am in the state of grace. But I can’t be sure that I will never submit to temptation, commit serious (mortal) sin, and lose my salvation. Of course, repentance is always possible. But what if I die suddenly while still away from God’s grace? No, no one can be sure of salvation (if by ‘salvation’ you mean getting to heaven) until we close our eyes in death.

Yes, I learn much more “Bible doctrine” as a Catholic. Moreover, I also learned the history of the Bible. As a Protestant, I had no idea the Bible came to us through the Catholic Church. I did not know the Church is nearly 400 years older than the Bible. I cherish it much more now that I know where we got it, and the price the Church paid for copying it by hand and preserving it for fifteen centuries until the printing press was invented. As a Baptist, I was trained to focus on certain passages, our “proof-texts.” As a Catholic, I study the Bible holistically. And large excerpts from Scripture are read at every Mass, every day.

The most important thing I learned is that the New Testament was written by the Catholic Church (i.e., by members writing on behalf of the Church). The NT is based on the teaching of the Church, not vice versa. The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. The 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint (Old Testament) were inherited by the Church from Jesus and the Apostles. NT, OT, and Bible are all names given to her collection of sacred Scripture by the Catholic Church. The Bible is a Catholic book!

My motivation for converting is that I found through a study of the history of Christianity that Catholicism is the Truth and nothing but the Truth. The Church was founded by
Christ for the salvation of the world. I had long ago jumped the Baptist ship over Sola Scriptura because logic proved it false. I became an agnostic, then an atheist. Only the beauty and logic of Catholicism could have pulled me out of that black pit.

I’d be glad to answer any questions you or anyone may have.

My conversion story is at this link, if you’d care to read it.

catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/STORYJayDamien.pdf

 

[paul_c]

Now that I know true, original Christianity, before it was splintered and mistaught in multiple ways by Protestants, I can tell you that no, I was not “saved” as a Baptist. I thought I was saved, when I “accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior” and “asked Jesus to come into my heart,” But now I see that the NT teaches that salvation is not instantaneous**; **it is a lifetime process. “He who perseveres to the end will be saved” Mt 10:22, Mk 13:13. I have assurance of my salvation as a Catholic as long as I am in the state of grace. But I can’t be sure that I will never submit to temptation, commit serious (mortal) sin, and lose my salvation. Of course, repentance is always possible. But what if I die suddenly while still away from God’s grace? No, no one can be sure of salvation (if by ‘salvation’ you mean getting to heaven) until we close our eyes in death.

Yes, I learn much more “Bible doctrine” as a Catholic. Moreover, I also learned the history of the Bible. As a Protestant, I had no idea the Bible came to us through the Catholic Church. I did not know the Church is nearly 400 years older than the Bible. I cherish it much more now that I know where we got it, and the price the Church paid for copying it by hand and preserving it for fifteen centuries until the printing press was invented. As a Baptist, I was trained to focus on certain passages, our “proof-texts.” As a Catholic, I study the Bible holistically. And large excerpts from Scripture are read at every Mass, every day.

The most important thing I learned is that the New Testament was written by the Catholic Church (i.e., by members writing on behalf of the Church). The NT is based on the teaching of the Church, not vice versa. The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. The 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint (Old Testament) were inherited by the Church from Jesus and the Apostles. NT, OT, and Bible are all names given to her collection of sacred Scripture by the Catholic Church. The Bible is a Catholic book!

My motivation for converting is that I found through a study of the history of Christianity that Catholicism is the Truth and nothing but the Truth. The Church was founded by
Christ for the salvation of the world. I had long ago jumped the Baptist ship over Sola Scriptura because logic proved it false. I became an agnostic, then an atheist. Only the beauty and logic of Catholicism could have pulled me out of that black pit.

I’d be glad to answer any questions you or anyone may have.

My conversion story is at this link, if you’d care to read it.

catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/STORYJayDamien.pdf

Well said.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Ambiguity wins the day! Augustine believed that (yes) there is predestination; but not as the Calvinist or Islam. Augustine believed that there were those predestined to salvation; Mary, that there were those predestined to doing wrong; Pharaoh, but he did not believe there were those predestined to hell as do Calvinist and some of the Islamic faith.

The Catholic Church teaches “predestination,” but not in the Calvinistic sense. See paragraphs 239, 242-44 of Dr. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

Predestination has to do with God’s foreknowledge; He knows everything at once; the past and the future are NOW since He is outside time. Therefore, He has known from all eternity who will accept his offer of salvation and who will reject it. However, man has free will, and . . .

"Despite men’s sins, God truly and earnestly desires the salvation of all men."

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

It is obviously very easy to misrepresent Protestant views since it was done. Just because you chose to ignore certain plans of salvation does not negate their worth. You avoidance of the passage I cited in 1Jn 5 does however speak to why you take issue with them.
I am not even going to touch your mentioning of the number of books in Scripture, that is for another place. But I will mention that the Magisterium is not in Scripture but God is, and Scripture says that it is the Holy Spirit who leads us not the Magisterium, but I am sure you knew that since you read your Bible.

Hi RevG,

The Scriptures were not written to teach either Judaism or Christianity. One goes to a rabbi to learn Judaism, and to the Catholic Church to learn authentic, original Christianity. Jesus Christ left us the Church as our teacher; He did not write an instruction book.

Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach; he did not tell anyone to write anything. The ability to write was rare, and few could read and write until the end of the 18th century and the Industrial Revolution.

Christ founded the Church; the Church wrote the New Testament and formed the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

In the 16th century, Martin Luther made Sola Scripturs a foundational doctrine of Protestantism, teaching that the Bible is the only rule of faith and morals. This is not the teaching of the Apostles.

The only certain thing one can say about Protestantism is that it is split into thousands of denominations that teach conflicting and competing doctrines, and every denomination claims that its teachings are true.

:whacky:

Jim Dandy

 

[RevG]

Hi RevG,

The Scriptures were not written to teach either Judaism or Christianity. One goes to a rabbi to learn Judaism, and to the Catholic Church to learn authentic, original Christianity. Jesus Christ left us the Church as our teacher; He did not write an instruction book.

Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach; he did not tell anyone to write anything. The ability to write was rare, and few could read and write until the end of the 18th century and the Industrial Revolution.

Christ founded the Church; the Church wrote the New Testament and formed the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

In the 16th century, Martin Luther made Sola Scripturs a foundational doctrine of Protestantism, teaching that the Bible is the only rule of faith and morals. This is not the teaching of the Apostles.

The only certain thing one can say about Protestantism is that it is split into thousands of denominations that teach conflicting and competing doctrines, and every denomination claims that its teachings are true.

:whacky:

Jim Dandy

Mr Jim,

You will get a more complete answer and response to this later when i am not pressed for time, but to let you know where I stand on this comment…you sir need to read you Bible and maybe do some research before spouting ignorance. The Old Testament which is the Bible was written many years prior to the church, the New Testament was not written by the church either it was accepted as inspired by GOD not the church. It is people who try to teach rediculousness like you just said that belittle the Divine inspiration of the Bible.

 

[paul_c]

Mr Jim,

You will get a more complete answer and response to this later when i am not pressed for time, but to let you know where I stand on this comment…you sir need to read you Bible and maybe do some research before spouting ignorance. The Old Testament which is the Bible was written many years prior to the church, the New Testament was not written by the church either it was accepted as inspired by GOD not the church. It is people who try to teach rediculousness like you just said that belittle the Divine inspiration of the Bible.

Rev G,
Jim came to his conclusions BECAUSE he read his bible and did research. Maybe you should follow your own advice.

The Old testament WAS of course written prior to the insitution of the Catholic Church.But the New Testament authors: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James and Jude were allmembers of the one,Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Furthermore, If you do even cursory research, you will find that the definition of what books to include in the Bible was anacated at Catholic Councils and legitmized by Pope St. Damasus in 382AD, He then commissioned st. Jerome to translate the Bible into Latin. His translation, the vulgate, stood as the official version of the Bible for over 1000 years. And Yes, the Bible was divinely inspired. But that inspiration came through the CAtholic Church. You can look it up…

Try googling’ Canonization of the Bible".

 

[Jim_Dandy]

The Bible never talks about rituals. Those were added to the Catholic religion.

The Apostles celebrated the Mass, and included in it the ritual of the Liturgy of the Word which came from the synagogue. They added the Liturgy of the Eucharist, which came from Christ. You can read it in the first century *Didache *and in Justin Martyr’s *First Apology *(A.D. 155).

Again, the Bible is not a systematic instruction book in Christianity. The NT is the written record of the spiritual life and history of the Catholic Church during the first 50 years or so after her founding by Jesus Chirst in A.D. 33. The Church is nearly 400 years older than the Bible.

The term “Asking Jesus into your heart” is not in the Bible either. I personally don’t like that term.
In Eph 2 Paul call’s Salvation a gift. What do you have to do for a gift to be yours? Accept it!
Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Alas, Protestants purport to be expert interpreters of a very complex book. There is only one correct interpretation – the one conveyed by the sacred authors. The NT was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics in the heart of the teaching Church. One has to interpret it in that context to understand its meaning.

We can “be the perfect us we can be” all we want, but is it perfect enough to enter Heaven?
In Relelation it says not even one lie will enter into Heaven. I don’t know about you, but I’ve told a few in my life. Psalms says evil will not dwell with God.
Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Psalm 3:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. It is offered to us as a gift, all we have to to is accept it. There is no other option in the New Testiment for Salvation.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
BTW, we do have assurance of salvation.
The Bible tells you that you do.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may** know **that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Sola Fide (Faith Alone) was “discovered” by Martin Luther in the 16th century. Christ and the Apostles didn’t teach it. Nor did they teach “eternal security” or “assurance of salvation.” I strongly recommend reading the history of early Christianity.

Catholics don’t read the Bible in order to know what to believe. We read it to confirm what we’ve already been taught by the Church and to apply it to our own lives.

Here’s a little book that explains the history of the Bible. Every Christian should know the facts. .

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Well said.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Mr Jim,

You will get a more complete answer and response to this later when i am not pressed for time, but to let you know where I stand on this comment…you sir need to read you Bible and maybe do some research before spouting ignorance. The Old Testament which is the Bible was written many years prior to the church, the New Testament was not written by the church either it was accepted as inspired by GOD not the church. It is people who try to teach rediculousness like you just said that belittle the Divine inspiration of the Bible.

RevG, I look forward to receiving your comments when you have more time.

I didn’t say the OT was written by the Church. However, the name “Old Testament” was given to the sacred Scriptures of Judaism by the Catholic Church in A.D. 382 at the Council of Rome. At the same time, she named 27 of her own writings the “New Testament” Her entire collection of sacred Scripture, she named Tá Biblia, the Bible.

Please let me assure you, I have studied the Bible, both formally and informally. After two years of formal study through the University of San Francisco, I am certified to teach Scripture to adults, though I have never done so. I’m always eager to learn more. That’s why I read the Bible often.

I would never belittle the Divine Inspiration of the Bible. But may I ask, how do you know that these writings – and no others – are divinely inspired? And may I ask, where is the God-inspired list of the contents of the Bible? Without it, how do you know your Bible contains all the writings it should have, and none that it shouldn’t?

There are several different collections of writings that different Christian groups call their Bible. Which is the real Bible? And how do you know?

Which Bible? Whose Canon? Please check out this Methodist website, and you’ll see the problem:

gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

Remember, the Bible is not a continuous book, but a collection of writings. Who collected them? When? With what authority?

Bible study and Bible history are very challenging subjects. I await your future posts.

Are you an ordained reverend? Of what denomination?

Thanks,

Jim Dandy

 

[DoriAndBubba]

Sure, I’ll show you how the verses you’ve selected below support this and add a few of my own…

The sacraments are God’s way of imparting grace to those that ask for them. There are 7 sacraments as you know, since you’ve attended Catholic school. The sacrament of marriage is a sacrament of service. If you choose to have children, then you need to get married to get the graces associated with that service.

So if a woman dies without having children, she won’t go to Heaven?
A sacrament is a work, something we do. If we need the sacraments, then that contradicts the Bible.
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain

There is only one Catholic faith. Those that differ from it are not practicing the Catholic Faith

You would think. Here’s a challenge for you. Send out random e-mails to Catholic churches around the country. Ask, how do I get to Heaven. You’ll see how many different answers you’ll get

Yes, my beliefs are consistent with those taugth by the CAtholic Church and they are completely consistent with what is in Holy scripture.

No, they don’t. You’re beliefs require works. The Bible says by faith alone.

Read your bible again. There are no passages in the Bible that say that heaven is by faith ALONE. You are quoting Martin Luther, not the bible

Sorry , I never read anything by Martin Luther
All the verses I’ve posted are very clear. You just keep reading more into them.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Follow your own advice. here is what Ephesians 2 says when you expand it to include verses 9-10:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

I can’t believe you don’t understand verse 10. Paul clearly says in verses 8&9 that it by faith, not works to be saved. Paul goes on to say God has good works for us ( as Christians), (created in Christ). God created man, Christ created Christians. Is a person who doesn’t believe in Christ created in Christ? Or was he just created?

The grace available through baptism is indeed a gift. You don’t need to do anything other than to believe to get baptized. and once you do, you need to do the good works that God has prepared in advance.

Being baptized to enter Heaven is a work.
Water baptism is clearly a FIGURE or TYPE of something which already took place in the heart of the believer the moment he/she was saved (1 Pet. 3:21). Water baptism is the ordinance representing the identification of the Christian with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[DoriAndBubba]

You might be surprised to find that most devout Catholics read the bible voraciously. I have been reading the bible daily for 37 years. I start my morning by reading 5 chapters: one from the old testament historical books, one from psalms, one from the wideom/ prohetic books, one from the gospels and one from the epistles. Plus I get two or three readings at daily mass. Those readings at mass are important because the priest will give you the Ccatholic intrepetation in the homily. Without that, is is very easy ot misunderstand what the Bible is really saying. That is one of the shortcomings of Protestantism - everyone has their own interpretation of what the bible says. For instance, you are mistakingly understanding the bible to say that you will go to heaven simply because you believe that Jesus died for our sins. While he did die for our sins, he said to FOLLOW him.

If there is a verse that says it is a requirement to follow Jesus, then it contradicts the verses that say it is by faith alone. The Bible cannot contradict itself.

This is part of the bread of life discourse where Jesus says
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
This is just one of many places in scripture that it describes how you need to partake of the sacraments to get the grace that leads to eternal life…

Jesus decides to come down to their level in an attempt to bring them up to His. He moves on with the metaphor, already firmly established, of “eating = believing”. The only way to eternal life is through union with the Son of Man. This involves a vital faith relationship with Him, symbolized here by the eating of His flesh and the drinking of His blood. To make the equation complete. Jesus places “eating My flesh and drinking My blood” in the exact same position as hearing His word and believing on Him who sent Jesus in John 5:24, or as being drawn by the Father in 6:44, or as looking to the Son and believing in 6:40, or simply believing in 6:47. The result is the same in each case - eternal life, or being raised up at the least day. Hence, we here have a clear indication of Jesus’ usage of the metaphor of eating His flesh and drinking His “blood” in John 6. Graphically we would have:
“ALL the ones Looking and believing in Him”
Those who are “drawn” by the Father → all = being “raised upon the Last day.”
"The One eating my flesh and drinking my blood” /
Hence, the sacramental interpretation of this passage is left with no foundation at all - Jesus is obviously not speaking of the sacrament of the “Eucharist” established years later - His referring to His body and blood here is paralleled clearly with belief in the Son and the drawing of the Father - the same themes struck above. Consistency of interpretation must lead one to reject a sacramental interpretation of this passage.

We’ve already discussed this passage.

Like I said, you don’t understand it.

This passage describes the fact that we are saved initially through baptism (the washing of regeneration) and not because of anything we have done.

Paul is discussing baptism of the Holy Spirit, no water.

let’s follow your advice and expand the verse:

Let’s read it from the King James Bible. That is the only translation that is accurate.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
While salvation is a gif t, there are rewards given for faithfulness in the Christian life. Some people are troubled by the doctrine of rewards because this seems to suggest “merit” instead of “grace,” Of course we should serve the Lord out of love and for God’s glory, and understanding the nature of rewards will help us do that. But the fact still remains that the Bible promises us rewards. God gives us salvation. It is a gift through faith, but He rewards us for good works.

You are correct; forgiveness of sins is by faith, not works. What is a sacrament? Is a work that will gain you entrance into Heaven?

 

[paul_c]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Sure, I’ll show you how the verses you’ve selected below support this and add a few of my own…

No,whether or not a woman has children has no bearing on whether she goes to heaven. Where did you get that from what I said?

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A sacrament is a work, something we do. If we need the sacraments, then that contradicts the Bible.
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain

Needing the sacraments most certainly does not contradict the bible. The verses you are quoting are talking about how the old covenant , represented by the Jewish ceremonial laws, are insufficient for salvation. They have nothing to do with the efficacy of the sacraments. Why aren’t you quoting the verses that actually pertain to the sacraments directly. I’ll give you a few:

Matthew 28: 16-20 the risen Jesus commissions his church:

16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go , therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
Acts 2: 37-41 the story of Pentacost:
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?”
38 Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”
40 He testified with many other arguments, and was exhorting them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day.

1Peter 3:
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
There is only one Catholic faith. Those that differ from it are not practicing the Catholic Faith

Save yourself the time: Read the catechism, the official document of the Catholic church on this : scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#II

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[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Yes, my beliefs are consistent with those taugth by the CAtholic Church and they are completely consistent with what is in Holy scripture.

You are greatly mislead. The bible specifically says that salvation is NOT by faith alone . Check out James 2: 14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Read your bible again. There are no passages in the Bible that say that heaven is by faith ALONE. You are quoting Martin Luther, not the bible

No, I am giving you the full truth as taught by the Catholic Church. Your interpretations are full of half truths because you read one line in the absence of the rest of the passage, which gives it full context.

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John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

No one is debating that you need to believe in Jesus to have eternal life. But that’s not all there is to it. for instance, in Matthew 19, Jesus answered the specific question of what it took to gain eternal life. Here’s the exchange:

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

How do you reconcile the words of Jesus with your interpretation that salvation is through faith alone?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Follow your own advice. here is what Ephesians 2 says when you expand it to include verses 9-10:

On the contrary, I understand it exactly as the Catholic Church teaches. as I explained to you below

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
The grace available through baptism is indeed a gift. You don’t need to do anything other than to believe to get baptized. and once you do, you need to do the good works that God has prepared in advance.

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Being baptized to enter Heaven is a work.
Water baptism is clearly a FIGURE or TYPE of something which already took place in the heart of the believer the moment he/she was saved (1 Pet. 3:21). Water baptism is the ordinance representing the identification of the Christian with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I’ve already quoted this passage. As you see above, it is baptism that SAVES you now…

You are representing yourself as Catholic but it seems very unlikely that you really are a Catholic. If you are, you are very poorly catechized because you clearly don’t understand these things as a true Catholic would.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
You might be surprised to find that most devout Catholics read the bible voraciously. I have been reading the bible daily for 37 years. I start my morning by reading 5 chapters: one from the old testament historical books, one from psalms, one from the wideom/ prohetic books, one from the gospels and one from the epistles. Plus I get two or three readings at daily mass. Those readings at mass are important because the priest will give you the Ccatholic intrepetation in the homily. Without that, is is very easy ot misunderstand what the Bible is really saying. That is one of the shortcomings of Protestantism - everyone has their own interpretation of what the bible says. For instance, you are mistakingly understanding the bible to say that you will go to heaven simply because you believe that Jesus died for our sins. While he did die for our sins, he said to FOLLOW him.

This is true . The Bible doesn’t contradict itself. It never says that salvation is by Faith ALONE, In fact, it says specifically that you are not saved by faith alone. You enter the state of grace by Faith but to stay there, you must Love. Have you read 1Corinthians 13? It says that Love is more important than Faith… If you have faith enough to move mountains, but do not have love, you are nothing. As for the verse that says to follow him, here it is from Matthew 19: 16-21:
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
This is part of the bread of life discourse where Jesus says

You are right that the eucharist involves a vital faith relationship with Jesus. But you are wrong to say its a metaphor. The people who heard it didn’t think he meant it as a metaphor either because most of his disciples left him after he explained it to them.
witness the end of John 6:
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
If it was taken as simply a metaphor for faith, why would the disciples have abandonned him? The 12 had faith in him and the were rewarded with the full explanation of the echarist during the last supper discourses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
We’ve already discussed this passage

I’ve shown you in a dozen ways now that your interpretation of salvation by Faith alone is invalid. what is the basis of your confidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
This passage describes the fact that we are saved initially through baptism (the washing of regeneration) and not because of anything we have done.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit involves water. There is no other baptism…

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
let’s follow your advice and expand the verse:

Tell me again - Are you really Catholic? Nothing you say is consistent with Catholicism. Be that as it may, this verse says the same thing as the “Catholic translation”

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
It still says that Paul hasn’t achieved the prize of resurrection of the dead and that he is still working to win that prize.
DoriAndBubba;8137878:

While salvation is a gif t, there are rewards given for faithfulness in the Christian life. Some people are troubled by the doctrine of rewards because this seems to suggest “merit” instead of “grace,” Of course we should serve the Lord out of love and for God’s glory, and understanding the nature of rewards will help us do that. But the fact still remains that the Bible promises us rewards. God gives us salvation. It is a gift through faith, but He rewards us for good works.

The reward for loving God and neighbor is eternal life.

You are correct; forgiveness of sins is by faith, not works. What is a sacrament? Is a work that will gain you entrance into Heaven?

If you are a Catholic, you know precious little about the Faith. The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.

 

[TexasJoe]

Despite some excellent biblical exegesis and scriptural commentary on this site under this specific thread, it is irrelevant what I or anyone else believes. The one question we have to answer as Catholics (and this is a Catholic website) is “what does the Church teach?”

The Catholic Church acknowledges four “creeds” or “symbola” as authoritative professions of Catholic doctrine. All of these are enumerations of what we as Catholics must believe. The Nicene Creed is familiar to most Catholics since it is recited at nearly every Sunday mass. Similarly, the Apostles’ Creed is also known by practically every Catholic since it is so commonly used in daily private prayer. A Creed of Pope Pius IV promulgated in 1572 also exists, but it is only a historical curiosity. That leaves the so-called Athanasian Creed also known as the “Quicumque Vult” after its first two words as the remaining authoritative creed recognized by the Church. It is not certain who the author was or exactly when it was written although it is doubtful that Saint Athanasius wrote it. It can be dated to at least earlier than 542 AD, however. It would seem that it originated sometime in the early sixth century as it almost certainly was intended as a refutation of heresies prevalent at the time, in particular Arianism and Donatism.

Formerly, the Athanasian Creed was recited as part of the office of Prime every Sunday. Vatican II, however, suppressed the hour of Prime, so it was not officially included in any liturgical rite of the Church from 1963 to 2007. With his Summorum Pontificum of 2007, Pope Benedict XVI reinstated the office of Prime as one of the canonical hours but only in the so-called “Extraordinary” Form (“EF” or Latin rite) as contained in the 1962 Roman Breviary issued by His Holiness Blessed Pope John XXIII. But its use is now limited only to the recitation of Prime on Trinity Sunday under the Tridentine calendar for those who choose to recite the Breviary according to the EF in Latin. It is therefore practically unknown to virtually all present day Catholics. Curiously, the Anglican Church, the Episcopal Church in America (see page 864 of the Book of Common Prayer), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Church of Christ all acknowledge the Athanasian Creed as an authoritative profession of doctrine in their denominations (together with the Nicene and the Apostles’ Creeds).

I have no intention whatever of either endorsing or rejecting the so-called “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (EENS)” or “Outside the Church There Is No Salvation” movement subscribed to by a tiny minority of Catholics. This forum is not at all the appropriate venue for a discussion of the merits or detractions of that belief. The EENS movement notably cites the Athanasian Creed as the foundation of their belief that only duly-baptized Catholics can be saved. My own opinion is that the Athanasian Creed does not inherently condone such a belief. This seems to be confirmed by the adoption of the Creed as authoritative by the Protestant denominations noted above. The Church of Christ’s official website clarifies that it interprets “catholic” [with a lower case “c”] in the sense of “universal” and not in reference to the Church of Rome. Some Roman Catholics, however, would no doubt dispute this assertion. The English translation provided on the Precum Latinarum website does capitalize the “C” in “Catholic,” but then too so does the English version adopted verbatim by the Anglican and Episcopal Communions.

The full text in Latin and in unofficial English translation can be found at

[ coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and
they are to give an account of their own deeds.

      "Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have
       done evil will go into the everlasting fire.

      "This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly;
       otherwise He cannot be saved. Amen."

Must one do anything else to be saved? That is not clear, though most modern Christians would say “yes” and include at least a few of the numerous acts or beliefs that have been enumerated in the posts responding to this thread based on their scriptural reading. The Athanasian Creed, however, is most unyielding in its insistance that adherence to the beliefs and acts that it has set forth are the minimum requirement for salvation.

Again, I have discussed the Athanasian Creed not with any intent to advocate its adoption, rejection or revision by anyone in any context. I will only note in closing that, perhaps because of its relative obscurity or possibly not, its status as an authoritative declaration of Church dogma has not been challenged or revised in any way that I could find since its initial promulgation centuries ago. At least doctrinally, it does continue to constitute official Church teaching until such time as its status may be changed.](Quicumque)

 

[DoriAndBubba]

You are greatly mislead. The bible specifically says that salvation is NOT by faith alone . Check out James 2: 14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

No, I am giving you the full truth as taught by the Catholic Church. Your interpretations are full of half truths because you read one line in the absence of the rest of the passage, which gives it full context.

No one is debating that you need to believe in Jesus to have eternal life. But that’s not all there is to it. for instance, in Matthew 19, Jesus answered the specific question of what it took to gain eternal life. Here’s the exchange:

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

How do you reconcile the words of Jesus with your interpretation that salvation is through faith alone?

On the contrary, I understand it exactly as the Catholic Church teaches. as I explained to you below

I’ve already quoted this passage. As you see above, it is baptism that SAVES you now…

You are representing yourself as Catholic but it seems very unlikely that you really are a Catholic. If you are, you are very poorly catechized because you clearly don’t understand these things as a true Catholic would.

I give up, you are blinded.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

I give up, you are blinded.

Come on Dori! Don’t you want to be able to tell God that you did all that you could to share His truth with us incorrect people? Don’t give up! Show us how our arguments are wrong! Show us how we’re misinterpreting 2000 years of Christian Tradition, Scripture, and patristics!
… Because you won’t do us much good with ad hominem attacks when people try to refute what you post.

Why are you so attached to the KJV?

Would you mind sharing with us what kind of church you go to? What’s your faith background? Because as paul c stated, you posting very much unlike a Catholic would.