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Jim_Dandy
Guest
To the contrary, fpesce. The Catholic Church teaches that every word of Scripture comes from God. No exceptions.
You are choosing to say that anything in the NT that doesn’t fit your beliefs is of no effect – it doesn’t count. Period.
Jim Dandy
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fanatic1
Guest
this makes no sense. You are parroting Luther, an excommunicated heretic
Whne someone asked Jesus what he must do to be saved, Jesus said to obey the commandments.
then he said that the man who had done that lacked one thing. He needed to sell all that he had & give 2 the poor. then come follow Him
If Jesus had meant to s ay that no one is capable of doing this – and that we are saved by faith alone, He would have said that.
Jesus doesn’t play games w/ our salvation. He paid too high a price for it-
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PRmerger
Guest
Then please explain to me how the Holy Spirit will work in the scenario I provided.
It’s true that I don’t understand how the Holy Spirit works in your Protestant lives, and I would appreciate it if you could expound on this.
Thanks.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Jim Dandy wrote:
Read “The Hunt for the Fourth Cup” at this link:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp
Jim Dandy
fpesce replied:
Again, according to the NT, Jesus had to rise from the dead before His work was finished. The work of redemption wasn’t finished at the Crucifixion. That isn’t what Jesus meant when he said “it is finished.”
Read “The Hunt for the Fourth Cup” at this link:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp
Jim Dandy
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SPH1
Guest
There is nothing one can do to be saved. It is God’s choice via His grace.
Like a car without gas, we cannot “turn to” God without grace.
Like a car without gas, we cannot “turn to” God without grace.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
But –
Desite men’s sins, God truly and earnest desires the salvation of all men. p. 239
God gives sufficient grace to all men, in order that they may work out their salvation. p. 246
Source: Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
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fpesce
Guest
Galatians 3:
Intent of the Law
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15Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.You interpret…
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fpesce
Guest
Gal 3
10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” 11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would **receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. **==============
You interpret…
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fpesce
Guest
Galatians 4
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27For it is written,
“REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
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fpesce
Guest
Galatians 5
Walk by the Spirit
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement,
“YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Walk by the Spirit
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
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7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, **but through love serve one another**.“YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
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16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
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fpesce
Guest
1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.
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6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
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11See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. 12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But **may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ**, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
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17 From now on let no one cause trouble for me, for I bear on my body the brand-marks of Jesus.
18 **The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen**.
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PRmerger
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Catholics respond with a hearty Amen, pesce!
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Leadee
Guest
He expects us to turn in faith, love, and gratitude to Him. Then He can begin the work of writing His laws on our hearts and in our minds-with our cooperation.
Once Jesus died on the cross and acsended into heaven, The Holy Spirit came into the hearts of everyone. And His laws were written in our hearts. Now there is no excuse.
You need to read Romans 2. It talks about the law being written on every man’s heart so that they are without excuse. The bible does not say it is a processing that is happening after we recieve the Holy Spirit. It’s already on your heart.
Once Jesus died on the cross and acsended into heaven, The Holy Spirit came into the hearts of everyone. And His laws were written in our hearts. Now there is no excuse.
You need to read Romans 2. It talks about the law being written on every man’s heart so that they are without excuse. The bible does not say it is a processing that is happening after we recieve the Holy Spirit. It’s already on your heart.
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Leadee
Guest
You are right. There must be a place where the buck stops. There can only be one truth and one measuring rod for truth. God has given us that tool and it’s call the bible. I don’t know about you but I believe we serve a living God.
If you don’t believe the bible is His authoratative Word then you don’t really and truly believe the God of bible so what is the point of even discusing all of this? What you are saying is that man has more authority to speak for God then God himself. Isn’t that why man fell in the first place? Man wanted to know what God knew (knowledge of good and evil) so that he didn’t really need God. Things have not changed one bit since that day. Thank God that He is full of mercy and grace!
Of course we still need teachers and leaders in the church but they are not the final authority, God’s own Word is.
If you study church history you will understand why we came to believe that man needed to interpret God’s Word for the church but bottom line is, it was to control the masses who were uneducated. Take a look at the dark ages and the role the church played. While there are always godly good hearted people in the church, the church is still made up of falable people who are always subject to deception,temptation, sin and corruption. It’s been that way from the beginning of the church. The bible even addresses how off track some of the leaders in the church were getting back then. How can man possibly be trusted more then God?
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Leadee
Guest
What’s this “actual” grace? There is only one word for grace in the bible, charis. Your theology contradicts itself. Either grace is sufficient or it’s not. You can’t have it both ways. You are saying you need to add your own work to grace. That is an insult to the giver. That is definately a man made idea.
Of course there should be good works. There’s no debate about that. The huge difference is the motivation of those works. You can do them out of the flesh, which is out of fear and striving for God’s approval, or you can do them out of the spirit, which is out of love for God for what He’s already done for you. Works of the flesh are not counted for anything in the spirit. God is spirit. You are working in vain if you choose the first. I’m not making this up, the bible says it. We all know about the passage where Jesus says to those who did good things “I do now know you.” A person can do all sorts of good deeds and profit nothing for God’s Kingdom. The deeds must be done in His Spirit to give Him glory, period.
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Leadee
Guest
What did Jesus mean was finished? What does the bible mean in 1 Peter 3:18 when it says that Christ died ONCE for ALL of our sins? The word once means one time, no? And all means for every single one. How do you understand it to mean otherwise?
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Leadee
Guest
Can the just avoid serious sin and thus persevere to the end? Some people consider this a false problem. They said that the just are incapable of sinning, that the sin of a man is proof that he has not yet been justified; and hence the truly just need not bother about observance of the commandments. This heresy contradicts St. Paul: “Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.” (1 Corinthians 10:12) No one, therefore is to think himself confirmed in grace unless God reveals this to him.
There is not one scripture that substantiates the idea that we no longer have to bother observing the law. I totally agree with you there. Jesus didn’t come to abolish it, He came to fulfill it for us. Just because Jesus fulfilled it so that we didn’t have to, we are still obligated to obey it. Obedience has shifted to, having to obey so that we aren’t punished to obeying because we want to out of love and gratitude.
It is then an article of faith that the just man can persevere to the end. The divine assistance ought always to be implored even by the reborn and the justified that they may come to a good end or persevere in good works. Perseverance requires a special gift of grace. Christ and St. Paul exhort the faithful to pray unceasingly for grace. The need of it arises from the weakness of the human will which, on account of the revolt of the flesh against the spirit, has not in itself the power always to stand fast in virtue/QUOTE]
It seems to me that there is a mix up of ideas here when we talk about works and perserverence. First, the bible is very clear that Jesus Christ took care of the punishment for all of our sin, once for all (1 Peter 3:18). To say otherwise contradicts scripture. So when you examine scripture, you build on that. So what is working out our salvation then? It’s just that, it’s working out the salvation that we’ve been given. It’s perservering in the truth of the gospel. It’s holding fast to the truth and not letting go of it and following some other lie.
I think the problem we run into is not understanding how deeply and fully God really loves us, even in our state of sinfulness and that He knows we can’t be righteous on our own so He made the way for us to be made righteous (Jesus:heart. Once you get a hold of this magnificant truth in your heart, you can never be the same again. If you hold on to it, and perservere, you will be transformed from the inside out.
Thinking that you have to continually earn God’s approval and live in fear of punishment, even after He sent His one and only Son to pay the price, so gets in the way of what God wants to do with you. Here’s a picture of what it’s like:
You have been behaving badly. Your dad loves you, even if you fail him. He knows you struggle with being a good kid and he knows you just don’t have it in you to behave the way you know you should. One day, you wreck the car by hitting a tree. He knows you don’t have the money to pay for the damage but decides that he will pay for it for you. He fixes the car and tells you not to worry about paying him back but he wants you to remember that he extended that grace to you out of love. You can have the mindset of, “I have to pay dad back the money for the car so I am not obligated to him.” or “My dad really loves me no matter what. I will pay him back with my love.” Which is better?
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fpesce
Guest
Who ever said I was Protestant?
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ddarko
Guest
Hey there,
Do you have an answer me yet?
Because I think if you cannot answer that, all the quotations you make from Scripture are kind of undermined no? They would just be your personal interpretation of each verse.
God Bless
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