What must I do to be saved?

[fpesce]

Well, Catholics look to the Bible to tell us what our measuring rod for truth is.

And the Bible says that…

The *Church *is our measuring rod for truth! (See 1 Tim 3:15)

Interesting that the Bible does* not* say that Scripture is–which is what your paradigm declares. Is this not, then, a non-biblical paradigm to say that Scripture is your measuring rod?

1church noun \ˈchərch\

Definition of CHURCH
1: a building for public and especially Christian worship
2: the clergy or officialdom of a religious body
3often capitalized : a body or organization of religious believers: as a : the whole body of Christians b : denomination c : congregation
4: a public divine worship
5: the clerical profession <considered the church as a possible

Which definition of church?

Certainly must mean the “whole body Christians”…

But I bet you go with “officialdom of a religious body”

 

[fpesce]

How 'bout this: All Catholics* ought to* respond with a hearty AMEN!

BTW, could you please expound on my question as to how the Holy Spirit works in Protestant lives, because I certainly don’t understand, as it pertains to 2 Protestants reading the very same Bible and coming up with differing doctrines. Is the Holy Spirit involved in both Christian’s readings/interpretations? If so, how could the HS teach contrary things?

As hard as it may be for you to believe, I am not a Protestant. I am a Catholic! So go on and give me all your condemnations.

 

[PRmerger]

I am also told in His word that I have the Holy Spirit to teach me.

But which “Holy Spirit” is it, Leadee?

Is it the HS that tells Presbyterians that women can be ordained or is it the HS that tells SDA that women can’t be ordained?

Is it the HS that tells Lutherans that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ, or is it the HS that tells Presbyterians that it is merely symbolic?

Is it the HS that tells Baptists that Sunday is the day of worship, or is it the HS that tells SDAs that Saturday is the correct day?

Is it the HS that tells Anglicans that Mary remained ever-virgin, or is it the HS that tells Baptists that she had other children?

 

[fpesce]

How 'bout this: All Catholics* ought to* respond with a hearty AMEN!

BTW, could you please expound on my question as to how the Holy Spirit works in Protestant lives, because I certainly don’t understand, as it pertains to 2 Protestants reading the very same Bible and coming up with differing doctrines. Is the Holy Spirit involved in both Christian’s readings/interpretations? If so, how could the HS teach contrary things?

How about this, All Christians ought to respond with a hearty AMEN!

 

[fpesce]

But which “Holy Spirit” is it, Leadee?

Is it the HS that tells Presbyterians that women can be ordained or is it the HS that tells SDA that women can’t be ordained?

Is it the HS that tells Lutherans that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ, or is it the HS that tells Presbyterians that it is merely symbolic?

Is it the HS that tells Baptists that Sunday is the day of worship, or is it the HS that tells SDAs that Saturday is the correct day?

Is it the HS that tells Anglicans that Mary remained ever-virgin, or is it the HS that tells Baptists that she had other children?

Are any of those questions above necessary for salvation?

 

[PRmerger]

Are any of those questions above necessary for salvation?

Why don’t you tell us what questions are necessary for salvation? What doctrines are you prepared to dismiss and what ones are “necessary” and how do you know?

 

[PRmerger]

How about this, All Christians ought to respond with a hearty AMEN!

 

[PRmerger]

As hard as it may be for you to believe, I am not a Protestant. I am a Catholic!

I wouldn’t have known!

So go on and give me all your condemnations.

I give you a big for being Catholic, pesce! Come and continue to dialogue with Catholics here so you can nourish your poor catechesis.

(NB: it’s probably not your fault that you are so poorly catechized. The Church has done an abysmal job in the past feeding her flock with the truth.)

 

[PJM]

=Gracealone;8186035]Now sadly I can say that in Australia there is widespread worship of everything. The Protestant church is not immune to this (let’s face it, we are sinful), but within the Roman Catholic church here there is rampant & widespread worship of idols, Saints, Mary, self (look at the my life and how many times I… How much I give etc - remind you of a certain Pharasee prayer anyone? - don’t get too comfortable & smugProtestants*(that’s religion), you and I fall into*the latter too), so many things as the centre of worship - except the one who should rightly be receiving it… Jesus.

My dear friend in Christ; I am GREATLY impressed by your piety:thumbsup:

Let’s look at your comments and understanding in the LIGHT reflected from GOD’s COMPLETE TRUTH. After all; if your correct, a bit of light on the subject ought not change anything. RIGHT?

First: Wecome to the FORUM! Thanks for participating.

Second: your quote of “whoever is with us cannot be against us” is certaily TRUE. But taken out of the context does not give the entire message. Matt.12: 30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters." is the “backside of the same instruction.”

PLEASE don’t take this next comment personally. IT’S NOT intended that way. BUT every time I gear that we catholics are “idolitars” I can’t help by smile. HERES WHY:

On TWo seperate ocassions Yahweh God [by your definition of idols] HIMSELF COMMANDED Moses to build “idols” in a MOST precise manner: Once for the Angels images for the Ark of the Covenant and AGAIN on the trek in the desert when God sent among the disobeient and obstinate Jewish people: Seperants [representing as they do today: Satan] to bite the people for there continual disobedience to Yahweh God.

**1 Chr. 18 **“for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD”

Exod.25: 18, 20 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. [20] The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" [cherubim are a class of heavenly angels]

Lest you error further by claiming they are Spiritual Things so are the Saints…NOW.

**Num.21: 8-9 ** And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live."

And a Pole with a serpant on it to CURE ills is not a “spiritual thing.” So GOD HIMSELF commands honor and respect for these “idols”. BUT are they idols? NO! They are reminders of HOLY Things. So what then is an “IDOL”?

Websters FIRST defination is: “1 : a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly: a false god”

Ps.40: 4 "Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not turn to the proud, to those who go astray after false gods!** Jer.7: 9**Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Ba’al, and go after other gods that you have not known, **Jer.14: 22 **Are there any among the false gods of the nations that can bring rain? Jer.18: 15 " But my people have forgotten me, they burn incense to false gods; they have stumbled in their ways, in the ancient roads, and have gone into bypaths, not the highway,"

My friend there arre MANY more examples I could share. WHERE YOU able to discern the differenc? God is and ONLY is concerned about “false gods.” NOT sacred images. This is delibertely mistaught to enhance competiting faith; which by the way; God detest as mush as false gods." [Please ask me to prove it if you doubt my words.]

Here are the WORDS to the “Hail Mary” the most often prayed prayer [next to the Lords prayer."

Hail Mail; FULL of Grace [Luke 1:26]
The Lord is with thee [Luke 1:35]
Blessed are YOU [Mary] among women [Luke 1:42]
and Blessed is the Fruit of YOYR Womb Jesus [Luke 35, 43-44]
Holy Mary [Luke 1:26]
Mother of God [Luke 1:35]
PRAY FOR US SINNNERS NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH…AMEN
Hallowed be thy name [Luke 1:42]

While is is true that we pray “to” Mary and the SAINTS; it is a much better understanding to say that we “PRAY THROUGH” them… WHY?

They ARE in the presence of God. When we Pray [to] THROUGH them they ADD THERE own prayers to our doubling the the prayers.

“WORSHIP” is NEVER correctly used in refering to Catholics petitions and prayers THROUGH Mary and the saints. NEVER. “Worship” is RESERVERED TO GOD ALONE!

“Reverence, respect, honor” are the terms WE CATHOLICS USE to expalin this relationship

[LOOK for a PM from Me]

 

[ddarko]

Sorry I didn’t reply. Following threads and such tends to confuse me. You ask how I know I am right. I don’t know that I am right but I do believe that God leads us into truth becuase He promises that if we seek Him will all of our heart we will find Him and God is not a liar. I am also told in His word that I have the Holy Spirit to teach me. It can’t get better then that. I believe that if I search and seek I will find, just as I’m promised. I believe the rod of truth is God’s Word, the bible. When I study the word, I always base my understanding on all of scripture, not just one or two verses. If something doesn’t line up, I keep seeking. There are still things I don’t know. My life is a journey of learning and growing. The moment I think I’ve arrived I know I’m in trouble. One thing I feel very strongly about is the subject of salvation because it is the foundation of the Christian faith. We should not differ on this one. How about you? What is your measuring rod for truth?

So Leadee, I want to know how you know the bolded section above, also reproduced below for your convenience:-

“but I do believe that God leads us into truth becuase He promises that if we seek Him will all of our heart we will find Him and God is not a liar. I am also told in His word that I have the Holy Spirit to teach me. It can’t get better then that. I believe that if I search and seek I will find, just as I’m promised. I believe the rod of truth is God’s Word, the bible.”

This is where I am about to accuse you of circular logic. You know the above things from interpretation of the Scripture themselves. Especially the first line.

So if your interpretation that “God leads us into truth because He promises that if we seek Him will all of our heart we will find Him” is an erroneous interpretation of God’s word, then are you not in error?

It appears to me that in the end, you have a circular argument on which you have build your religion. You have no REASONABLE ground to believe that your interpretation is correct, yet you come here to tell us why we are wrong because your interpretation is right.

How do you reconcile that?

As for my measuring rod, it comes through reason. I look at history, not Theology, and I see that I have to believe in what Christ’s Apostles taught and not what I dream up that they taught to myself after prayer. I see that they instituted other Apostles and then them instituting more Apostles etc. I also see that not all who knew teachings or knew Christ were made Apostles. Then I see again from history that this Apostolic Succession continues to this day in the Catholic Church. So quiet naturally, I listen to the Apostles that are present today. Because it seems from mere historical analysis (Which is reason), that they are the people to listen to.

From them, I accept Scripture because they tell me it contains the Word of God. From them I accept Tradition, because they tell me it contains the teachings of the past Apostles. From that it reasonably follows that I must interpret Scripture and Tradition TOGETHER as a whole (Not just all of Scripture together as a whole), and that the final interpretation is authoritatively decided by the collection of Apostles together, i.e. Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church.

THAT, is how one embraces Christianity.

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

I wouldn’t have known!

I give you a big for being Catholic, pesce! Come and continue to dialogue with Catholics here so you can nourish your poor catechesis.

(NB: it’s probably not your fault that you are so poorly catechized. The Church has done an abysmal job in the past feeding her flock with the truth.)

That’s you’re opinion. “Poor catechesis” won’t change the Words in the bible and everything I have quoted you comes straight from the bible. You can’t argue with God’s word.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s you’re opinion. “Poor catechesis” won’t change the Words in the bible and everything I have quoted you comes straight from the bible. You can’t argue with God’s word.

Who’s arguing with God’s word? God’s word is unable to argue. (If by God’s word you mean the Scriptures, of course)

We are discussing your interpretations of the Bible.

And can you tell us what verses are “necessary” and what ones we can dismiss? And how do you know, pesce?

 

[PRmerger]

That’s you’re opinion. “Poor catechesis” won’t change the Words in the bible and everything I have quoted you comes straight from the bible. You can’t argue with God’s word.

I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it –Matt 16:18

The church is “the pillar and foundation of truth” -1 Tim 3:15

He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me. –Luke 10:16

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority.—Hebrews 13:17

 

[ddarko]

That’s you’re opinion. “Poor catechesis” won’t change the Words in the bible and everything I have quoted you comes straight from the bible. You can’t argue with God’s word.

How exactly do you know it’s God’s word in the Bible?

God Bless

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Leadee
Either grace is sufficient or it’s not. You can’t have it both ways. You are saying you need to add your own work to grace. That is an insult to the giver.

THE REPLY:

Grace is always sufficent; it is, however, not always efficacious, Leadee.

BOTH of these comments REQUIRE additioanl explaination IMO:blush:

NO, we are NOT insulting Christ. QUITE THE OPPOSITE is FACT

***Grace no doubt is REQUIRED for anyones salvation. Grace is a FREE Gift from God that it OFFERED BUT not always accepted or appllied correctly or fully. BUT is NEVER “ALL” that GOD HIMSELF REQUIRES.

GRACE ALONE =,s* Predestination which as popularly understood is a LIE. And even an IMPOSSIBILITY.

PD 1. Denines God His absolutely required “Goodness.” A God that sends folks to hell by HIS ouw choice alone CANNOT be a 'Good God." GOD IS EVERY GOOD THING PERFECTED", so this understanding of PD is a lie.

PD 2. Not only does it invalidate God Himself; it even invalidates Humanity and how God Choses to “make us”. Of ALL of God’s “created Things” ONLY ONE; humaity has what is required to “love.” Namely a mind, intellect, freewill ALL connected to our souls. THESE are how we are made in the “image of God” [Gen. 1:26-27] and like God are Spiritual THINGS.

BECAUSE GOD CHOOSE TO GIVE HUMANITY A FREEWILL, MIND, AND INTELLCET; He GRAVELY obligates Himself to PERMIT us to use these gifts TO DETERMINE BY OUR LIFES CHOICES WHERE WE CHOOSE TO SPEND ETERNITY.

In addition to GRACE, Faith, Charity [good works], Christian Baptism and COMPLETE Obedience to God Commandments are in an absolute sense; requirements to be fulfilled in attaining salvation. [Bible support is available on each of these conditions].**

Now as for the REPLY

Grace is always “sufficient” is COMPLETELY True WHEN correctly understood.

It means NO guareentee of salvation; RATHER it is an OFFER for the POSSIBILITY of salvation by our God. …God “obligates Himself” to make available to EVERYONE…
Sufficient Grace to Know Him." This Grce is NOT forced or infused, BUT only Offered. it can be accepted, refused or accepted and incomplely or incorrectly applied. OUR CHOICE.

God makes IT POSSIBLE; BUT we MUST make it happen

God Bless,
Pat

 

[fpesce]

I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it –Matt 16:18

The church is “the pillar and foundation of truth” -1 Tim 3:15

He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me. –Luke 10:16

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority.—Hebrews 13:17

If the following statment is true:

(NB: it’s probably not your fault that you are so poorly catechized. The Church has done an abysmal job in the past feeding her flock with the truth.)

How can you then state:

“The church is “the pillar and foundation of truth” -1 Tim 3:15”

Seems like a contradiction to me. Hmmmm… Now what shall I believe?

Don’t worry, I don’t want an answer I already know.

 

[ddarko]

If the following statment is true:

(NB: it’s probably not your fault that you are so poorly catechized. The Church has done an abysmal job in the past feeding her flock with the truth.)

How can you then state:

“The church is “the pillar and foundation of truth” -1 Tim 3:15”

Seems like a contradiction to me. Hmmmm… Now what shall I believe?

Don’t worry, I don’t want an answer I already know.

Um, are you ever going to reply to my questions to you?

I asked one right above.

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

Um, are you ever going to reply to my questions to you?

I asked one right above.

God Bless

No, I don’t care much for your cirular logic thing.

 

[ddarko]

No, I don’t care much for your cirular logic thing.

Well no WONDER you are in error

Remember, REASON is a gift from God to separate the lies from the truth. If you don’t use it, you will continue to believe in a lie. So its not a matter of caring

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

Well no WONDER you are in error

Remember, REASON is a gift from God to separate the lies from the truth. If you don’t use it, you will continue to believe in a lie. So its not a matter of caring

God Bless

2 Timothy 1

6 For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. **

7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. **

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

IS there circular reasoning in that logic?