What must I do to be saved?

[Cruxis117]

If the following statment is true:

(NB: it’s probably not your fault that you are so poorly catechized. The Church has done an abysmal job in the past feeding her flock with the truth.)

How can you then state:

“The church is “the pillar and foundation of truth” -1 Tim 3:15”

Seems like a contradiction to me. Hmmmm… Now what shall I believe?

Don’t worry, I don’t want an answer I already know.

The Church has the Truth and is where the truth can be found. However, there are many members of the Church who have not taught the faith as they should have, and it is a current problem. Two different things. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Yet we have human members who fail in their duties. I find no contradiction in this. Just as I find no contradiction in the God-Man, our Lord, who is both full God and full Man. Divinity which took on mortal, humble flesh. The Church which has weak human members who fail in their duties to one another.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Gracealone wrote:

within the Roman Catholic church here [Australia] there is rampant & widespread worship of idols, Saints, Mary, self

This is a Protestant myth that has been circulating for 494 years. The official teaching of the Catholic Church is easily available to you. You don’t need to remain in the dark about what Catholics believe and how they worship. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is online at many websites, including vatican.va. Most Catholic documents are online as well. Go to the Catholic Answers library on this website where you’re posting. Or go to scborromeo.org. Or go to EWTN’s website and library. The information is there for you.

Worshipping anything or anyone other than the Almight Triune God is a mortal (deadly) sin.

Where did you learn the false things you wrote about? To which denomination do you belong?

Jim Dandy

 

[Cruxis117]

2 Timothy 1

6 For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. **

7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. **

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

IS there circular reasoning in that logic?

I’m not quite sure how using this quote is supporting your position. Can you please clarify what you are getting at?

 

[fpesce]

The Church has the Truth and is where the truth can be found. However, there are many members of the Church who have not taught the faith as they should have, and it is a current problem. Two different things. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Yet we have human members who fail in their duties. I find no contradiction in this. Just as I find no contradiction in the God-Man, our Lord, who is both full God and full Man. Divinity which took on mortal, humble flesh. The Church which has weak human members who fail in their duties to one another.

So,

How do we aquire this truth then? How do we know it is the truth if it is coming from fallible men?

 

[fpesce]

I’m not quite sure how using this quote is supporting your position. Can you please clarify what you are getting at?

Okay, I am using this scripture to show that our salvation is not by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

And our suffering comes from giving this message to people who will not accept it. And to not be ashamed to stand by the message and to perservere till the last day.

 

[Cruxis117]

So,

How do we aquire this truth then? How do we know it is the truth if it is coming from fallible men?

We aquire this truth by accepting and believing the teachings that are given to us. Well, for starters, our Lord was the one who clearly said this:

John 14:26- “But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.”

These men who teach us are not fallible in these regards, they are protected from error. Even the “Borgia Pope”, Alexander, who was (in my opinion) the worst Pope ever to sit in St. Peter’s chair, did not teach error. He was too busy sinning Even with a man consumed by sin, error was not taught as doctrine.

I could posit the same question towards you, myself. How do we know that what the Reformers taught was truth? Are they not infallible men? Could they not be wrong?

 

[fpesce]

I’m not quite sure how using this quote is supporting your position. Can you please clarify what you are getting at?

Oh, excuse me I was replying to DDARKO. Sorry, I picked your quote by accident.

 

[Cruxis117]

Okay, I am using this scripture to show that our salvation is not by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

And our suffering comes from giving this message to people who will not accept it. And to not be ashamed to stand by the message and to perservere till the last day.

Yes, works alone shall not save us. Our salvation is not by our works, without grace that is.

That’s why James says this:

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-26[/BIBLEDRB]

This is the only place in the entire Bible that Faith alone is ever said. And it is described negatively. Therefore, faith in Jesus Christ cannot be alone. Because faith without works is useless, dead, unsaving faith.

 

[Cruxis117]

Oh, excuse me I was replying to DDARKO. Sorry, I picked your quote by accident.

Oh, that’s okay. Sorry about that.

 

[ddarko]

2 Timothy 1

6 For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. **

7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. **

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

IS there circular reasoning in that logic?

Yes haha. I first thought this was a joke. But I realized you were serious.

You just quoted to me Scripture verses. I am asking,

1. How do you know that you interpreted the above correctly
2. How do you know that it is God’s word to begin with

No Scripture quotes is going to help you answer the above. So your attempt above was Circular logic indeed.

You can’t justify use of Scripture and that your interpretation of Scripture being guided by the Holy Spirit using Scripture it-self. That is circular.

So my question is, how does one discover the above?

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

We aquire this truth by accepting and believing the teachings that are given to us. Well, for starters, our Lord was the one who clearly said this:

These men who teach us are not fallible in these regards, they are protected from error. Even the “Borgia Pope”, Alexander, who was (in my opinion) the worst Pope ever to sit in St. Peter’s chair, did not teach error. He was too busy sinning Even with a man consumed by sin, error was not taught as doctrine.

I could posit the same question towards you, myself. How do we know that what the Reformers taught was truth? Are they not infallible men? Could they not be wrong?

I am in AGREEMENT with you. But…(sorry), It has to follow the bible. I know, written by infallible men. I think that’s the circular logic thing that “ddarko” talks about.

But God’s word says,

Jeremiah 1:12

Then the LORD said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.”

 

[ddarko]

I am in AGREEMENT with you. But…(sorry), It has to follow the bible. I know, written by infallible men. I think that’s the circular logic thing that “ddarko” talks about.

But God’s word says,

Jeremiah 1:12

Then the LORD said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.”

But that is circular logic. You are telling me something written in the Bible which you then you are already assuming to be Infallible to begin with. Hence, it is already assuming what it is out to prove.

So any reason to believe that the Bible is infallible has to be outside of the Bible. It can’t be inside of it.

I can write my own book and include Jeremiah 1:12, does that make it infallible?

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

Yes, works alone shall not save us. Our salvation is not by our works, without grace that is.

That’s why James says this:

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-26[/BIBLEDRB]

This is the only place in the entire Bible that Faith alone is ever said. And it is described negatively. Therefore, faith in Jesus Christ cannot be alone. Because faith without works is useless, dead, unsaving faith.

Wow, I agree with you again. With true FAITH, your works will follow. It is not something separate.

Look at

Mark 16:

16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

17 “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;

18** they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”**

That is your WORKS.

 

[Cruxis117]

I am in AGREEMENT with you. But…(sorry), It has to follow the bible. I know, written by infallible men. I think that’s the circular logic thing that “ddarko” talks about.

But God’s word says,

Jeremiah 1:12

Then the LORD said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.”

Why must it follow the Bible only? I’ve never seen it said that the Bible is the final authority. And here comes my next question, has God’s Word ever been a verbal one? Has anyone ever heard the Word? (I know this sounds like a silly question, but bear with me) Did the Prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, amongst others, speak God’s Word? If so, why is it that there are men who cannot do this now? Certainly, St. Paul did not carry an NRSV with him as he travelled. The “biblical” church which came after the death and resurrection of our Lord certainly was not one of the Scriptures only, for as St. Paul writes:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Thessalonians 2:13[/BIBLEDRB]

2 Thessalonians 2:15:So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Concerning salvation, anything we have to add (works) to Jesus death is a minus from Jesus (taking away glory richly deserved by him alone), and so sinfully puts us at the helm under us which God must somehow act because we bought him at a price…

. . .

Don’t agree yet? Then let’s take a works based salvation further to see it’s implications… Works is a natural logical idea, we want to contribute something… It is the basis of Catholisism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.

. . .

Works righteousness is unrighteousness because it is man centered… Why? - Luke 18:9 amongst other things…

1. We compare ouselves to other people not Jesus
2. performance establishes worth, not God saves me, loves me etc
3. we trust in ourselves - object as our faith
4. God not our judge, people are
5. Leads to pride (call it self esteem) who do we have contempt for?
   (thanks Mark Driscoll podcasted sermon).
   Religion has glory & worship going to everyone or anything else EXCEPT Jesus. God hates religion!

. . .

Catholics would be right in saying that we’re saved by works, but whose works? *Whose works save? - Jesus not ours!-

Gracealone, you have set up a strawman against whom you are arguing. “Works righteousness” or “Works Salvation” was condemned as a heresy by the Catholic Church at the Council of Orange in A.D. 529 and again at the Council of Trent in 1545-63.

GRACE precedes everything, even our very existence. Catholics believe that we are saved by GRACE, through faith, but works are required by God. We will be judged by our works. See Matthew 25:31-46, et al.

Jim Dandy

 

[fpesce]

Why must it follow the Bible only? I’ve never seen it said that the Bible is the final authority. And here comes my next question, has God’s Word ever been a verbal one? Has anyone ever heard the Word? (I know this sounds like a silly question, but bear with me) Did the Prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, amongst others, speak God’s Word? If so, why is it that there are men who cannot do this now? Certainly, St. Paul did not carry an NRSV with him as he travelled. The “biblical” church which came after the death and resurrection of our Lord certainly was not one of the Scriptures only, for as St. Paul writes:

[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 2:15[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]1 Thessalonians 2:13[/BIBLEDRB]

Maybe I should say…

It must be in agreement with the bible.

If it goes against the teachings of the bible it can’t come from God. God would never contradict Himself.

 

[Cruxis117]

Wow, I agree with you again. With true FAITH, your works will follow. It is not something separate.

Look at

Mark 16:

16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

17 “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;

18** they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”**

That is your WORKS.

No, these are our works:

[BIBLEDRB] James 2:15-17[/BIBLEDRB]

Amongst others. These are called works of Charity, for, as St. Paul says:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 13:2[/BIBLEDRB]

Our faith must have charity, must have love. Again, St. Paul writes this:

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 5:6[/BIBLEDRB]

Notice how he says a Faith which works in charity, or love. A faith divorced from works is useless faith. Works divorced from faith are useless works.

 

[ddarko]

Maybe I should say…

It must be in agreement with the bible.

If it goes against the teachings of the bible it can’t come from God. God would never contradict Himself.

I am still waiting for you to explain or answer my posts

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

Yes haha. I first thought this was a joke. But I realized you were serious.

You just quoted to me Scripture verses. I am asking,

1. How do you know that you interpreted the above correctly
2. How do you know that it is God’s word to begin with

No Scripture quotes is going to help you answer the above. So your attempt above was Circular logic indeed.

You can’t justify use of Scripture and that your interpretation of Scripture being guided by the Holy Spirit using Scripture it-self. That is circular.

So my question is, how does one discover the above?

God Bless

Why should I care? God, knows… and possibly you also? Ha, okay give me your correct answer.

 

[ddarko]

Why should I care? God, knows… and possibly you also? Ha, okay give me your correct answer.

Ok before I give my correct answer, I want you to understand why you should care.

Without any REASON to believe in Scripture as the word of God, there is really no reason to believe Christianity is true anyway. So you should care. Do you understand that?

Right now you are starting off with Scripture. You don’t know how you got there, know whether that has everything, and to make things worse, whether you interpret it properly. So you MUST care as a Christian on how you answer those questions. Agreed?

If you do, next post I will refer you to the correct way of knowing.

God Bless