What must I do to be saved?

[Jim_Dandy]

18** they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”**

That is your WORKS.

Handled any poisonous snakes or drank any strychnine lately? Are you a one-handed, one-footed, one-eyed Christian, or do you know any, who took Mt 18:8-9 literally?

Good works are of the type found in Mt 25:31-46.

Jim Dandy

 

[fpesce]

No, these are our works:

[BIBLEDRB] James 2:15-17[/BIBLEDRB]

Amongst others. These are called works of Charity, for, as St. Paul says:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 13:2[/BIBLEDRB]

Our faith must have charity, must have love. Again, St. Paul writes this:

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 5:6[/BIBLEDRB]

Notice how he says a Faith which works in charity, or love. A faith divorced from works is useless faith. Works divorced from faith are useless works.

You have just given me more examples of works. The point I was trying to make and apparently not clear enough was that:

Your Works is the fruit of Faith. Not the other way around.

 

[fpesce]

Handled any poisonous snakes or drank any strychnine lately? Are you a one-handed, one-footed, one-eyed Christian, or do you know any, who took Mt 18:8-9 literally?

Good works are of the type found in Mt 25:31-46.

Jim Dandy

Well, you know one now. Do you think Jesus was kidding when He said that? Not really.

 

[ddarko]

Well, you know one now. Do you think Jesus was kidding when He said that? Not really.

Did you miss my last post?

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

Ok before I give my correct answer, I want you to understand why you should care.

Without any REASON to believe in Scripture as the word of God, there is really no reason to believe Christianity is true anyway. So you should care. Do you understand that?

Right now you are starting off with Scripture. You don’t know how you got there, know whether that has everything, and to make things worse, whether you interpret it properly. So you MUST care as a Christian on how you answer those questions. Agreed?

If you do, next post I will refer you to the correct way of knowing.

God Bless

Okay, I agree, seriously.

 

[ddarko]

Okay, I agree, seriously.

Ok, good.

So this is how one makes the connection to Christianity once one accepts

1. God exists – Through Reason (Philosophy etc)
2. Christ died, and rose from the dead – Through Reason (Historical analysis)

(reproduced from what I said to Leadee before)

Then one looks at history, not Theology (for theology does not exist yet since you do not know anything God has said), and then you see that you have to believe in what Christ’s Apostles taught. Not what one dreams up that they taught after prayer because that would not be REASONABLY. It has to be what they taught which follows from reason.

Then you see that they instituted other Apostles and then them instituting more Apostles etc (you can learn this stuff by doing a mere historical (note, not theological) analysis of Acts of the Apostles. Then you will see that not all who knew teachings or knew Christ were made Apostles (Acts 1 is good place to see this). Then you see again from history that this Apostolic Succession continues to this day in the Catholic Church (all the heavy weights like Iranaeus and other church fathers were Bishops i.e. Apostles). So quiet naturally, I listen to the Apostles that are present today. Because it seems from mere historical analysis (Which is reason), that they are the people to listen to.

From them, I accept Scripture as infallible because they tell me it contains the Word of God. From them I accept Tradition as authoritative as well, because they tell me it contains the teachings of the past Apostles. From that it reasonably follows that I must interpret Scripture and Tradition TOGETHER as a whole (Not just all of Scripture together as a whole), and that the final interpretation is authoritatively decided by the collection of Apostles together, i.e. Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church.

THAT, is how one embraces Christianity.

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

Ok, good.

So this is how one makes the connection to Christianity once one accepts

1. God exists – Through Reason (Philosophy etc)
2. Christ died, and rose from the dead – Through Reason (Historical analysis)

(reproduced from what I said to Leadee before)

Then one looks at history, not Theology (for theology does not exist yet since you do not know anything God has said), and then you see that you have to believe in what Christ’s Apostles taught. Not what one dreams up that they taught after prayer because that would not be REASONABLY. It has to be what they taught which follows from reason.

Then you see that they instituted other Apostles and then them instituting more Apostles etc (you can learn this stuff by doing a mere historical (note, not theological) analysis of Acts of the Apostles. Then you will see that not all who knew teachings or knew Christ were made Apostles (Acts 1 is good place to see this). Then you see again from history that this Apostolic Succession continues to this day in the Catholic Church (all the heavy weights like Iranaeus and other church fathers were Bishops i.e. Apostles). So quiet naturally, I listen to the Apostles that are present today. Because it seems from mere historical analysis (Which is reason), that they are the people to listen to.

From them, I accept Scripture as infallible because they tell me it contains the Word of God. From them I accept Tradition as infallible, because they tell me it contains the teachings of the past Apostles. From that it reasonably follows that I must interpret Scripture and Tradition TOGETHER as a whole (Not just all of Scripture together as a whole), and that the final interpretation is authoritatively decided by the collection of Apostles together, i.e. Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church.

THAT, is how one embraces Christianity.

God Bless

DDARKO,

I know everything you said makes perfect logic. And for someone who wants to find God through logic this is the way to do it. This is a good start. And I seriously do not discount anything you have said.

But (there it goes again) there is more,

Please believe me. When the power of the Holy Spirit is working in your life. When you lay hands on people and see them healed. When you pray and see the answers manifest. When you cast out demons. When words of knowledge is given to you that only our Father in heaven would know. When you begin to get words of prophesy. When the dead rise. When you speak in tongues. This also testifies to our Father from whom these gifts are freely given.

Our Father has worked miracles from the beginning. Jesus said we can walk on water, speak to mountains. Nothing is impossible to those that believe.

I know that I am going to get alot of flack for posting this, but I know it’s the truth, because I have seen it with my own eyes and have experienced it (not all, yet) in my life.

Then you will never be the same again.

 

[PJM]

=QuickCat;8185035]Mr. Dandy: Do you ever look at the context in which a verse of Scripture is found? Our Lord Jesus Christ has just sent the 12 to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel.” [vs 10]. Then He describes the persecutions of the tribulation [see also Mt. 24:13,29]. If they “endure” the tribulation they will be saved from it. Do you not know that our Lord’s earthly ministry was to Israel and concerned the kingdom of prophesy and not the Body of Christ? You are very fond of Mt. 7:21, consider the context. The “kingdom of heaven” is not the Body of Christ it is that kingdom that is promised to Israel.
QC

Was Israel; Now all of humanity. Anf the KEYs to the heavenly kingdom REST with the Pope and the CC.

Matthew 16:18-19 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. ***I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” ***

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Well, you know one now. Do you think Jesus was kidding when He said that? Not really.

No, he wasn’t kidding. But he wasn’t teaching that one should mutilate oneself. He was using vivid language, hyperbole, as a warning against yielding to temptation.

Personal interpretation of the NT without the guidance of the Church who wrote it, and who therefore knows what it means, is dangerous.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

You have just given me more examples of works. The point I was trying to make and apparently not clear enough was that:

Your Works is the fruit of Faith. Not the other way around.

Thanks for telling me what I believe

 

[ddarko]

DDARKO,

I know everything you said makes perfect logic. And for someone who wants to find God through logic this is the way to do it. This is a good start. And I seriously do not discount anything you have said.

Ok good.

But (there it goes again) there is more,

Please believe me. When the power of the Holy Spirit is working in your life. When you lay hands on people and see them healed. When you pray and see the answers manifest. When you cast out demons. When words of knowledge is given to you that only our Father in heaven would know. When you begin to get words of prophesy. When the dead rise. When you speak in tongues. This also testifies to our Father from whom these gifts are freely given.

Aah yes, I wanted to address this but I wanted you to bring it up.

What you have mentioned above is your discovery of Jesus. You have personally experienced Jesus, God our father and the Holy Spirit. So you have reaffirmed their existence in a very personal way that no atheist can ever shake the foundations of your belief in them.

BUT, these personal experience do not tell you what Jesus said when he was here on earth or what he taught. Or even what God the father wants you to know.

So what must happen in every Christian’s life is that as they experience the above personal encounters, they need to seek Christ using reason. Now you may ask, why must we use reason? It is because that is what God has given us. That is how we know Christianity is the true religion and not Islam for an example.

Our Father has worked miracles from the beginning. Jesus said we can walk on water, speak to mountains. Nothing is impossible to those that believe.

While what you say above is true, you have to keep in mind that unless you already logically came to believe with certainty that Scripture is the word of God/Christ, you would not know if Jesus ever promised the above. Also one has to be careful in how one interprets the above so they know the scope of the teaching etc. That again has to come from some authority and can’t be decided by our own.

That is why it is critical for us Christians to use Reason. Our religion, is not UNREASONABLE like what the non-believers and other religious accuse us of. Our religion arrives at God through REASON. Our religion is not unsure of what Christ must have said. We are 100% certain and the Church, instituted by Christ makes sure that we will know with certainty to the end of time.

So we know God’s promises using REASON. By FAITH, we believe that he is not a liar and trust in him.

I know that I am going to get alot of flack for posting this, but I know it’s the truth, because I have seen it with my own eyes and have experienced it (not all, yet) in my life.

Then you will never be the same again.

No, you don’t get any flack from me. I think what you said above is part of the very picture that I described. But it is important to ask what all of what you said means.

All the miracles and our personal experiences of Christ tell us he is REAL and directs us to seek the truth he proclaimed. By his miracles we do not know what he wants to teach us. By his miracles we only know that he is the one we must seek to learn from.

Btw, this is where even non-Christians like Muslims get it wrong. By their personal experience and prayer they experience God. Then they conclude that it is proof for them to be Muslim. Quiet to the contrary, it is a sign that God exists and he wants us to seek to do his will. To do his will, we must find out his will through reason. Reason takes us to the true Divine revelation and the true interpretation of it. Without a true interpretation and certainty as to what is divinely revealed, it would be mere blind attachment.

So what you said is not an alternative way to become Christian or in anyway contrary to what I said. It is only an alternative motivation to seek Christ. Some seek Christ because they realize that their lives are empty without him. Some seek Christ because they realize his works in their life and his presence (like what you mentioned). But in all these cases, one must in the end seek Christ through Reason.

The devil is more than willing to lead us astray if we are not too careful.

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

The devil is more than willing to lead us astray if we are not careful.

God Bless

Thank You for that revelation. It is a blessing.

Although, can’t the devil use reason? That’s how he deceived Adam and Eve.

 

[ddarko]

Thank You for that revelation. It is a blessing.

Although, can’t the devil use reason? That’s how he deceived Adam and Eve.

Actually, great question.

So the sin of Adam and Eve is that they knew PERFECTLY through REASON that God exists, God created the world and they decided to have FAITH in the Devil’s promises/claims instead.

So that case is similar to someone who would arrive at Christianity through Reason, but then say “I know God loves me, but I don’t want to trust him. I want to do things my own way”.

Therefore the sin of Adam and Eve was actually not that they didn’t use reason. They used Reason because they were given a perfect ability to Reason before the fall. The SIN was that even with that perfect reason, they didn’t trust God.

So to tie back to my previous reply, Reason can tell us with CERTAINTY what God promises and who he is. But, we have to have FAITH in his promises in the end. What Adam and Eve did wrong was that they decided to have FAITH in the Devil’s words instead.

God wants us to LOVE him. That means to freely choose him. He tells us CLEARLY what he promises and we discover this through reason. No lover makes vague promises or makes it uncertain for the beloved to know what he means, right? So God, also does not keep us guessing. He gives us reason to discover his promises. But like a good spouse, we have to freely choose to trust him and love him back.

Adam and Eve for a moment, lapsed in their trust in God at the temptation of the Devil.

Did that explain things?

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

No, he wasn’t kidding. But he wasn’t teaching that one should mutilate oneself. He was using vivid language, hyperbole, as a warning against yielding to temptation.

Personal interpretation of the NT without the guidance of the Church who wrote it, and who therefore knows what it means, is dangerous.

Jim Dandy

I wasn’t advocating that. So, we agree.

 

[fpesce]

Actually, great question.

So the sin of Adam and Eve is that they knew PERFECTLY through REASON that God exists, God created the world and they decided to have FAITH in the Devil’s promises/claims instead.

So that case is similar to someone who would arrive at Christianity through Reason, but then say “I know God loves me, but I don’t want to trust him. I want to do things my own way”.

Therefore the sin of Adam and Eve was actually not that they didn’t use reason. They used Reason because they were given a perfect ability to Reason before the fall. The SIN was that even with that perfect reason, they didn’t trust God.

So to tie back to my previous reply, Reason can tell us with CERTAINTY what God promises and who he is. But, we have to have FAITH in his promises in the end. What Adam and Eve did wrong was that they decided to have FAITH in the Devil’s words instead.

God wants us to LOVE him. That means to freely choose him. He tells us CLEARLY what he promises and we discover this through reason. No lover makes vague promises or makes it uncertain for the beloved to know what he means, right? So God, also does not keep us guessing. He gives us reason to discover his promises. But like a good spouse, we have to freely choose to trust him and love him back.

Adam and Eve for a moment, lapsed in their trust in God at the temptation of the Devil.

Did that explain things?

God Bless

Wow, it does! So, God gives us reason but we choose to follow Him.

"So that case is similar to someone who would arrive at Christianity through Reason, but then say “I know God loves me, but I don’t want to trust him. I want to do things my own way”. "

It is so, that every time we sin we are basically saying what you quoted above. “…I want to do things my own way”.

I follow what you are saying.

 

[fpesce]

Do you perfect your reasoning by reading History and the bible? Seems like alot of work and reading.

 

[ddarko]

Do you perfect your reasoning by reading History and the bible? Seems like alot of work and reading.

Well, perfecting reasoning can be done through philosophy, mathematics etc. It takes a bit of practice because its very easy to fall in to circular logic and think one is done. Also as you mature, your reasoning skills grow. After you accept Christianity, you can also pray to the Holy Spirit to give you the grace of Wisdom, Understanding and Knowledge. There are times when I don’t immediately understand Church teaching. Then I pray and after years, it dawns on me. In all that time, I still stay faithful to the teaching. And that is the peace of being Catholic. You don’t always see the reasons. But know you can trust in the Church because you’ve already arrived at it by Reason.

Think about all the early Christians. They probably never knew the reasons behind the teachings of St. Paul or St. Peter. Yet they believed. That was because they knew that the only REASONABLE thing to do if they wanted to follow Christ was to believe what his Apostles are teaching.

It is a bit of work, but one has to do a bit of searching to reach Christ especially in the modern world where there are so many “alternatives” that try to portray themselves as the “true God”. In all of this, your personal experience keeps you grounded that you have to seek Christ and not these things. That is why the personal experience aspect is VERY important to keep you steady as you strive to find Christ’s teachings.

But one thing you have to remember is that not everyone has to go through this process of logical analysis all the time. Let us say you were born to a Catholic family. It is possible that your parents, or your parents parents etc somewhere down the line did this analysis and accepted the faith. So since they know God’s promises and has faith in him, they baptize you. You in turn would do the same because you trust your parents to have done the analysis. And that is how faith was handed down from the early Church. Through Apostles to Parents, then to child and so on through trust. The problem only occurs when one of the baptized starts to have doubts or gets met with an objection. Then he/she needs to redo the analysis.

Especially in the time we live in, with so many non-believers and even Christians who would ask questions and go down wrong paths, it’s important to know the way so that you can share it with them and bring them to Christ’s teachings with certainty.

To give you an example, if your parents said you have a brother who died before you were born, then you would believe them because you trust them. But then if you hear stuff from other people that it’s false, then you actually start to investigate and see if its true. It’s something similar here.

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

Well, perfecting reasoning can be done through philosophy, mathematics etc. It takes a bit of practice because its very easy to fall in to circular logic and think one is done. Also as you mature, your reasoning skills grow. After you accept Christianity, you can also pray to the Holy Spirit to give you the grace of Wisdom, Understanding and Knowledge. There are times when I don’t immediately understand Church teaching. Then I pray and after years, it dawns on me. In all that time, I still stay faithful to the teaching. And that is the peace of being Catholic. You don’t always see the reasons. But know you can trust in the Church because you’ve already arrived at it by Reason.

It is a bit of work, but one has to do a bit of searching to reach Christ especially in the modern world where there are so many “alternatives” that try to portray themselves as the “true God”. In all of this, your personal experience keeps you grounded that you have to seek Christ and not these things. That is why the personal experience aspect is VERY important to keep you steady as you strive to find Christ’s teachings.

But one thing you have to remember is that not everyone has to go through this process of logical analysis all the time. Let us say you were born to a Catholic family. It is possible that your parents, or your parents parents etc somewhere down the line did this analysis and accepted the faith. So since they know God’s promises and has faith in him, they baptize you. You in turn would do the same because you trust your parents to have done the analysis. And that is how faith was handed down from the early Church. Through Apostles to Parents, then to child and so on through trust. The problem only occurs when one of the baptized starts to have doubts or gets met with an objection. Then he/she needs to redo the analysis.

Especially in the time we live in, with so many non-believers and even Christians who would ask questions and go down wrong paths, it’s important to know the way so that you can share it with them and bring them to Christ’s teachings with certainty.

To give you an example, if your parents said you have a brother who died before you were born, then you would believe them because you trust them. But then if you hear stuff from other people that it’s false, then you actually start to investigate and see if its true. It’s something similar here.

God Bless

I stand corrected. I am so glad you stuck with your questioning. I tried to ignore it. Please forgive me for not taking you seriously at first. I am amazed at what I have just learned. Thank You…

Do you have a book or anything concerning this topic. It is a blessing.

 

[ddarko]

I stand corrected. I am so glad you stuck with your questioning. I tried to ignore it. Please forgive me for not taking you seriously at first. I am amazed at what I have just learned. Thank You…

Do you have a book or anything concerning this topic. It is a blessing.

Hey, no worries. We all have our moments. I am sure one day you will also persevere the same way for someone else

I don’t have necessarily one book that I would recommend. What I presented to you above was more of a collection of thought from various books. But I can give you some online resource that will help you a lot and sort of get you started . As you read you will also find references to books which you can then read if you like.

These are actually talks given by Dr. Scott Hahn, a former Reformed Theologians who is now Roman Catholic and a well known Biblical Scholar.

(The following contains Audio)
salvationhistory.com/library/category/the_church_and_the_papacy

That site also has more resources here

salvationhistory.com/library/category/apologetics

And I noticed you love Scripture. So you will find the following very interesting. This starts from Genesis and walks you right up to Catholic Church (follow topic (5) - (9) in order.) This is one of the best reads I ever did long time ago and I am sure it will help you too:-

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m2/Mod2.html

It’s also a written talk so it’s very entertaining and easy to follow. You will be able to see how connections are made to important concepts.

Also the following is a nice discussion that uses some historical analysis of Acts for Papal Infallibility

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pp.html

(If you have the text going out to the margins when you view the pages, re-size the browser to a more square shape)

As you study these, you will find many other topics that you want resources in. You will also find references to other works so it will be a nice building point. Just send me a PM anytime if you get stuck on an issue or want some more resources and I would be very glad to help

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

Hey, no worries. We all have our moments. I am sure one day you will also persevere the same way for someone else

I don’t have necessarily one book that I would recommend. What I presented to you above was more of a collection of thought from various books. But I can give you some online resource that will help you a lot and sort of get you started . As you read you will also find references to books which you can then read if you like.

These are actually talks given by Dr. Scott Hahn, a former Reformed Theologians who is now Roman Catholic and a well known Biblical Scholar.

(The following contains Audio)
salvationhistory.com/library/category/the_church_and_the_papacy

That site also has more resources here

salvationhistory.com/library/category/apologetics

And I noticed you love Scripture. So you will find the following very interesting. This starts from Genesis and walks you right up to Catholic Church (follow topic (5) - (9) in order.) This is one of the best reads I ever did long time ago and I am sure it will help you too:-

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m2/Mod2.html

It’s also a written talk so it’s very entertaining and easy to follow. You will be able to see how connections are made to important concepts.

Also the following is a nice discussion that uses some historical analysis of Acts for Papal Infallibility

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pp.html

(If you have the text going out to the margins when you view the pages, re-size the browser to a more square shape)

As you study these, you will find many other topics that you want resources in. You will also find references to other works so it will be a nice building point. Just send me a PM anytime if you get stuck on an issue and I would be very glad to help

God Bless

I look forward to it. Thank you. God bless you.