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PRmerger
Guest
The Church teaches the truth, but sometimes her methods were inadequate…
as evidenced by your poor catechesis. And the fact that you would make the above statement about a contradiction where none exists.
QED.
“so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming”.–Ephesians 4:14.
Oh, and thanks for visiting my Profile Page. It makes me happy to see your curiosity about me.
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PRmerger
Guest
All truth comes from fallible men*, pesce, unless you want to proclaim that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were infallible?
If you claim that they were, then you acknowledge, as the Catholic Church does, that there indeed exists the gift of infallibility.
If you claim that they weren’t infallible, then how can you trust the words of the Gospels? What errors are contained therein?
*NB: Of course, we are agreed that truth came from an infallible man, Jesus, but unless you were there 2000 years ago to hear his words, the only way you know, pesce, what he preached is through the Church…the Catholic Church.
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PRmerger
Guest
Now, this is very Catholic of you to say, pesce!
Good catechesis you received–perhaps the CAFs can take credit for this?
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fpesce
Guest
I like the way you sneak your jabs in, “as evidenced by your poor catechesis”, or “pesce” when my handle is “fpesce”. Is that something you learn from catchesis? OR maybe the bible? Or the Catholic Church? Or is it just a woman thing.The Church teaches the truth, but sometimes her methods were inadequate…
as evidenced by your poor catechesis. And the fact that you would make the above statement about a contradiction where none exists.
QED.
“so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming”.–Ephesians 4:14.
Oh, and thanks for visiting my Profile Page. It makes me happy to see your curiosity about me.
Hmmm, very christian of you.
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PRmerger
Guest
Oh! I meant no insult by calling you “pesce”. Now that I know you don’t care for it, may i call you fp?
I simply use many nicks when I address people.
To wit:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8176431&postcount=752. I call him “Nimen” when his actual screen name is Nimeniton.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8171105&postcount=740. I call her “b2” when her actual screen name is benedictus2.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7540783&postcount=205. I call him “Doki” when his actual screen name is Dokimas.
At any rate, when I typed “pesce” I imagined a fish, as it sounds like the Latinized form of pisce. I did not think of “pesky”.
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David_Castlen
Guest
You want a great (I mean great!!!) text for Logic (reasoning)?: Socratic Logic, by Peter Kreeft. I tell you, an 8th grader can read it and understand it. It is one of the text that I live with; it is like the Catechism and bible to me. It (in my opinion) should be with you all the times.Well, perfecting reasoning can be done through philosophy, mathematics etc. It takes a bit of practice because its very easy to fall in to circular logic and think one is done. Also as you mature, your reasoning skills grow. After you accept Christianity, you can also pray to the Holy Spirit to give you the grace of Wisdom, Understanding and Knowledge. There are times when I don’t immediately understand Church teaching. Then I pray and after years, it dawns on me. In all that time, I still stay faithful to the teaching. And that is the peace of being Catholic. You don’t always see the reasons. But know you can trust in the Church because you’ve already arrived at it by Reason.
Think about all the early Christians. They probably never knew the reasons behind the teachings of St. Paul or St. Peter. Yet they believed. That was because they knew that the only REASONABLE thing to do if they wanted to follow Christ was to believe what his Apostles are teaching.
It is a bit of work, but one has to do a bit of searching to reach Christ especially in the modern world where there are so many “alternatives” that try to portray themselves as the “true God”. In all of this, your personal experience keeps you grounded that you have to seek Christ and not these things. That is why the personal experience aspect is VERY important to keep you steady as you strive to find Christ’s teachings.
But one thing you have to remember is that not everyone has to go through this process of logical analysis all the time. Let us say you were born to a Catholic family. It is possible that your parents, or your parents parents etc somewhere down the line did this analysis and accepted the faith. So since they know God’s promises and has faith in him, they baptize you. You in turn would do the same because you trust your parents to have done the analysis. And that is how faith was handed down from the early Church. Through Apostles to Parents, then to child and so on through trust. The problem only occurs when one of the baptized starts to have doubts or gets met with an objection. Then he/she needs to redo the analysis.
Especially in the time we live in, with so many non-believers and even Christians who would ask questions and go down wrong paths, it’s important to know the way so that you can share it with them and bring them to Christ’s teachings with certainty.
To give you an example, if your parents said you have a brother who died before you were born, then you would believe them because you trust them. But then if you hear stuff from other people that it’s false, then you actually start to investigate and see if its true. It’s something similar here.
God Bless
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Leadee
Guest
You laid out the truth of the gospel quite throuroughly
I’d like to add a few notes. Who did Jesus repremand? Was it the sinners? Nope. It was the religious leaders. So yes, God doesn’t go for religion.
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PRmerger
Guest
This is nonsense. The only way you know who Jesus reprimanded is through…You laid out the truth of the gospel quite throuroughly
wait for it…
wait for it…
religion!
The *Catholic * religion, as a matter of fact.
For it was the Catholic religion which codified and preserved these words and actions of Jesus so that you would know that Jesus reprimanded sinners–including religious leaders.
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Leadee
Guest
I need to reword that. Who did Jesus come down the hardest on. The religious leaders, not the sinners. Of course he didn’t condone sin in the sinners but he didn’t call them vipers and empty whitewashed tombs. It was the religious leaders that got all fired up to have him killed, not the sinners.This is nonsense. The only way you know who Jesus reprimanded is through…
wait for it…
wait for it…
religion!
The *Catholic * religion, as a matter of fact.
For it was the Catholic religion which codified and preserved these words and actions of Jesus so that you would know that Jesus reprimanded sinners–including religious leaders.
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
But to dismiss religion because Jesus reprimanded the religious leaders is to throw the baby out with the bath water.
One does not follow the other.
Religion comes from the Latin word religiare, which means relationship. So if one wants to have a relationship with Jesus, one needs* religion.*
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Leadee
Guest
I would like to be clear on a few things. The CC objects to saying we are not saved by faith alone and use Romans 3 :28 to subtantiate this by saying Paul never said we are saved by faith alone. Is there other scripture as well? I agree that we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by the grace of God through faith. It’s not our faith that saves us, it’s the object of our faith. While the church is very important, my faith is not in the church because it has failed at times even since the beginning of it’s existence. The object of my faith is Jesus. He can never fail. It seems like a no brainer to me.
Where in the bible does Jesus say we have to work for our salvation? Or does anyone say that for that matter? Phil 2:12 says we are to work out, not work for our salvation. Big difference in meaning. When we are saved by grace it’s just the beginning of our new life so of course we must work it out by being faithful and obedient to our new Lord and Master.
People have always had a problem understanding grace. You don’t understand it if you think once saved by grace you can just keep doing what you were doing. Just because something is free doesn’t mean it’s not valuable. The price that God paid for our salvation was the highest cost, it was His very own life. If one gets a hold of that, why would they ever want to cheapen it by saying it’s not enough?
Where in the bible does Jesus say we have to work for our salvation? Or does anyone say that for that matter? Phil 2:12 says we are to work out, not work for our salvation. Big difference in meaning. When we are saved by grace it’s just the beginning of our new life so of course we must work it out by being faithful and obedient to our new Lord and Master.
People have always had a problem understanding grace. You don’t understand it if you think once saved by grace you can just keep doing what you were doing. Just because something is free doesn’t mean it’s not valuable. The price that God paid for our salvation was the highest cost, it was His very own life. If one gets a hold of that, why would they ever want to cheapen it by saying it’s not enough?
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PRmerger
Guest
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.
Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the “saved” and the “unsaved.”
1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?
Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God’s grace during our lives.
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of “Once saved, always saved?” If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.
Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).
Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus’ teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.
Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says “Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me.” We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.
Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord’s will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.
Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a “work” which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don’t know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.
2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.
2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).
Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.
1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.
cont’d…
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PRmerger
Guest
cont’d
Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.
Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.
Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.
Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are “once saved, always saved.”
Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.
Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.
Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.
Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”
Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”
Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds. –source
Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.
Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.
Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.
Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are “once saved, always saved.”
Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.
Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.
Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.
Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”
Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”
Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds. –source
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PRmerger
Guest
The object of all Catholics’ faith ought to be Jesus, Leadee. That is a teaching of the CC.
However, to separate Jesus from His Body, the Church, is to serve a decapitated Christ. One cannot have faith in only His Head, without having faith in His Body.
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fpesce
Guest
“above statement about a contradiction where none exists.”The Church teaches the truth, but sometimes her methods were inadequate…
as evidenced by your poor catechesis. And the fact that you would make the above statement about a contradiction where none exists.
QED.
“so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming”.–Ephesians 4:14.
Oh, and thanks for visiting my Profile Page. It makes me happy to see your curiosity about me.
You say the church is infallible, then in the next statement show it has faults, so then how can it be infallible?
By the way is this what you mean with “QED”?
QED as in:
Originally Latin meaning “quod erat demonstrandum” or “which was to be shown or proven”, now used mainly to insult someone when something is proven wrong or false
But no matter, I don’t concern myself with insults. God bless you ALWAYS! And you may call me, “fp”, “pesce”, whatever you please.
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David_Castlen
Guest
Holy cow!!! Fpesce! do you understand what is ment by the church being infallible? I understand you are a Catholic? Someone else on this sight can explain it better than I. Please read you Catechism.
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PRmerger
Guest
As you wish.
You clearly have great ignorance about what infallible means. It does NOT mean that the Church is perfect, impeccable or has no faults.
Please do some research, pesce. Continue to dialogue here (without getting yourself banned or suspended) and you will learn much from knowledgeable Catholics!
I was using more in the sense of “there, I’ve proved it!” rather than an insult, pesce.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes. It is clear that many Catholics are uninformed about their own Church’s teachings. :sad_yes:
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