What must I do to be saved?

[Tomster]

**These are people that call themselves Catholics: those who object to the basic tenents of the faith; e.g., those supporting contraception. These people are CINOs, Catholic In Name Only. Prostestantism allows so very much leyway that one can believe nearly anything and still be a protestant; not so for Catholism. And Catholicism never changes its basic tenets; protestantism does; e.g., contraception, divorce and it (protestism) beliefs evolve and create new denominations. If our leaders (Catholic leaders) would hold us to the fire we may loose a lot of attendants but we would be stronger and begin to growing faster.
**

Well said David.

Pope Benedict XVI, not too long ago, spoke of a smaller and leaner Catholic Church.

 

[Tomster]

Again, which “church” do we take these disagreements to, Catholic or otherwise? Which “church” has the authority to say “You are out of line and you must now be treated as a pagan or a tax collector” as Matthew says?

TW,

In the real world, I think what happens when there is a “difference of opinion” among Protestants and their pastors, the pastor, having no real authority, will just suggest that the individual might want to try the church down the street if he doesn’ like what he is hearing [translated: a certain type of Protestant oral tradition]. You can see where this type of pastoral care leads. Chaos and confusion!

 

[paul_c]

The summary of my understanding thus far is, catholics believe that you are not saved by faith alone. You are saved by grace but the grace is not sufficient to cover all your sins at one time because when you sin after you are saved you still have to do something to atone for those sins. Where’s the good news in that? It seems to me like a cruel joke to me. It’s like saying to someone - “I forgive you, come on in and be mine, I love you. But if you mess up you’re out again until you pay for your sin, then you can come back in. If you are really good, I mean PERFECT, then you can stay in for good.” How is that not completely conditional love?

Let me enlighten you on what te Catholic church really believes:

We are saved by being baptized into the church. There is no pre-requisite to being baptized other than the desire to be born again in Christ. No works are required. But the act of being baptized is to enter a covenant with God. He will forgive us all of our prior sins and give us sufficient grace to do his will. All we have to do is to cooperate with this grace by doing the good works he calls us to do, loving God and neighbor (and by love, the Catholic Church means doing things for others without expecting anything in return) to go to heaven.

If however, we fall from grace through sin (deliberately acting against the will of God) we will be condemned unless we are reconciled to him through the sacrament of reconciliation, which involves contrition, confession,repentence and penance . Through God’s infinite mercy, we can reconcile to him as many times as we desired. If we die in the state of grace, we will go to heaven.

You can strenghten the grace within you, which allows you to more easily love and avoid sin, through the sacraments, particularly the eucharist, through devotion, through prayer, and through good works. How can any of this be anything other than good news?

The other choice would be that you are saved by grace through faith. God’s love is unconditional and all you have to do is receive it. He sent His only Son to pay the price for your sin (who’s blood is sufficient to cover all sin if applied by faith) so that you can come in and stay in, not having to worry about being perfect first. Instead of having to perfect yourself, having sin out of the way, God works in you to perfect you. Instead of working for your salvation you are working it out with His help. This option sure sounds like good news to me.

Leadee, its all about love, wanting to do God’s will not for the reward of heaven, but because you want to do what is right, even if you get nothing out of it. God’s grace works in us IF we cooperate with it. We indeed have a choice - we can chose to do God’s will and be saved or to sin and be condemned. And by the way, Devout Catholics do not worry about whether or not they will go to heaven. They are content to do the will of God and trust God to judge fairly.

I’m sure people have a problem with this second option because that would mean having to trust God completely by faith and would mean they really don’t have any control in the matter because you have to hand all control over to God in submission. After all, isn’t this why we fell away from God in the first place, so that we could know enough to do our own thing without having to completely trust Him?

I have a problem with the second option as you present it not because its simply not the truth. We have obligations in the covenant agreement with God to do his will. Jesus said to follow him, didn’t he? That requires us to do something. If we fail to follow, we are condemned. The devil snares souls through half truths. It is True that we need to trust in God for salvation. It is not true that we will be saved simply because we believe it to be true.

 

[PRmerger]

I keep hearing about the protestant church having all sorts of theology but the truth is, they all agree on the foundational truth of the Gospel. The things they disagree on are minor things that do not change the foundation. The foundational cornerstone of the church is Jesus Christ and on it is built the church, it’s not the other way around. The core of christian belief is the good news of the Kingdom, which is the saving mercy and grace of our Lord.

Are you saying that the Bible says that there is one core Christian belief: the saving mercy and grace of our Lord?

If so, where does the Bible say that, Leadee?

Where does the Bible talk about essential doctrines that must be believed and non-essential doctrines that are ok to disagree upon?

 

[Leadee]

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved. - These are all OT verses. Christ came to fullfill the law so that we would no longer have to.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the “saved” and the “unsaved.” - Yes, I totally agree. However, the saved won’t be judged on their sins because Jesus took care of them already and paid the price.

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works? - Our regeneration is not based on our works but our works will still be judged. The ones that are done in the spirit will not perish but ones done in the flesh will burn up because the bible makes it clear works in the flesh are garbage. The only ones we will be rewarded on will be the ones that make it through the fire. (2 Cor 5:10, Rev 22:12).

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God’s grace during our lives. - This passage is not talking about salvation.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of “Once saved, always saved?” If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved. - I don’t know if we can lose our salvation or not. If a person can walk away from the greatest gift they could ever receive, my guess is they probably didn’t understand what it was in the first place. If they did understand, recieved it and then rejected it, well how could they possibly spend eternity with the giver. That’s my 2 cents on it. These passages are talking about enduring persecution, not making it to heaven.
Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works). Yep. We will be judged on our works.

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus’ teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him. - How do you substantiate that salvation is merely based on works using this passage? If the works here are works of gaining salvation then what about all the other scripture that contradicts that idea? He has to be talking about works done in the spirit. You can’t do works in the spirit if you are not born of the spirit. Any work in the flesh is garbage and is unprofitable, no matter how good it is.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says “Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me.” We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.- I would agree with you on this one, again, it’s our works of the spirit being judged.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works. - No, it means whatever treasure we store up in heaven we will have it when we get there. This says nothing about earning salvation. You can’t store anything in heaven if you aren’t already a citizen there so salvation comes first anyway.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord’s will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.- Yes, we certainly will be judged on that but we won’t be judged on our sins because they are atoned for in Christ.

I can’t respond to all of these in one thread, due to the limitation so I have to split it into two.
​

​

 

[Leadee]

Whether you are aware of it or not, you have just made a great case for Sacred Tradition!

Good job! /QUOTE

Another point I’d like to make: Most of the Jews in Jesus day missed out on salvation because of tradition so tradition is not always the best thing.

 

[Leadee]

Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation. - This is not saying anything about salvation. It’s talking about rewards once you get to heaven. We will be judged on our works for rewards, not judgement.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a “work” which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don’t know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.- But according to CC doctrine he couldn’t be saved because he wasn’t baptized. Why didn’t Jesus say he would be in pergatory instead of paradise? Either way, this passage is not the best one to build doctrine on.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace. - again, this is not talking about working for salvation, it’s talking about those who reject the truth of the gospel and continue in disobedience to God (the bible says every man is without excuse). It’s not saying that we have to do good works to be saved, it’s saying that His wrath and judgement will fall on those who reject His Lordship and live for themselves.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.- If you read the whole chapter it says we live by faith, not by sight and are looking forward to our real home. It’s talking about rewards for works we did while in our mortal bodies, not our salvation. He goes on to talk about being a “new” creation in Christ. The most exciting verse in the chapter is the last two - vs20-21- Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.-

Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).

Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy. - Makes no sense. How can a gift be called free if you have to earn it? We do earn our rewards however.

1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.

2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.- Not talking salvation here.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven. - Yes He does. However, if you get your reward now you probably won’t get it again in heaven.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith. - Holiness means being set apart. If you are a child of God then you are already holy and set apart. 1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.[/indent]

cont’d…

I could go through all the rest of the scriptures but it looks to me like it will be the same thing. The bible certainly talks about being judged on our works but it also says that Jesus bore the penalty for our sins and bore the wrath of God so that we wouldn’t have to. Those who appropriate the blood are no longer under condemnation for their sins. However, we will still be judged on our works while here on earth, judged for reward, not punishment.

 

[paul_c]

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved. - These are all OT verses. Christ came to fullfill the law so that we would no longer have to.
​

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the “saved” and the “unsaved.” - Yes, I totally agree. However, the saved won’t be judged on their sins because Jesus took care of them already and paid the price.

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works? - Our regeneration is not based on our works but our works will still be judged. The ones that are done in the spirit will not perish but ones done in the flesh will burn up because the bible makes it clear works in the flesh are garbage. The only ones we will be rewarded on will be the ones that make it through the fire. (2 Cor 5:10, Rev 22:12).

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God’s grace during our lives. - This passage is not talking about salvation.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of “Once saved, always saved?” If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved. - I don’t know if we can lose our salvation or not. If a person can walk away from the greatest gift they could ever receive, my guess is they probably didn’t understand what it was in the first place. If they did understand, recieved it and then rejected it, well how could they possibly spend eternity with the giver. That’s my 2 cents on it. These passages are talking about enduring persecution, not making it to heaven.
Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works). Yep. We will be judged on our works.

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus’ teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him. - How do you substantiate that salvation is merely based on works using this passage? If the works here are works of gaining salvation then what about all the other scripture that contradicts that idea? He has to be talking about works done in the spirit. You can’t do works in the spirit if you are not born of the spirit. Any work in the flesh is garbage and is unprofitable, no matter how good it is.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says “Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me.” We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.- I would agree with you on this one, again, it’s our works of the spirit being judged.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works. - No, it means whatever treasure we store up in heaven we will have it when we get there. This says nothing about earning salvation. You can’t store anything in heaven if you aren’t already a citizen there so salvation comes first anyway.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord’s will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.- Yes, we certainly will be judged on that but we won’t be judged on our sins because they are atoned for in Christ.

I can’t respond to all of these in one thread, due to the limitation so I have to split it into two.

Leadee,
The fundamental misconception that propagates itself across your comments involves the concept of once saved always saved. You see, we are saved in the sacrament of baptism (see 1Peter 3), which frees us of prior sin (thanks to Jesus’ sacrifice) and gives us new life in the spirit (John 3). But we must persevere in good works after that to enter eternal life. If you understand it this way, you don’t have the inconsistency in your arguments…
​

​

 

[PRmerger]

Most of the Jews in Jesus day missed out on salvation because of tradition so tradition is not always the best thing.

You are confusing “tradition” with "Sacred Tradition’, Leadee.

Tradition is customs; Sacred Tradition is the oral handing on of the Word of God.

 

[paul_c]

Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation. - This is not saying anything about salvation. It’s talking about rewards once you get to heaven. We will be judged on our works for rewards, not judgement.

What do you think these rewards in heaven will be? We believe that heaven is to know, serve and be with God, resulting in bliss. What do you think it will be?

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a “work” which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don’t know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.- But according to CC doctrine he couldn’t be saved because he wasn’t baptized. Why didn’t Jesus say he would be in pergatory instead of paradise? Either way, this passage is not the best one to build doctrine on.

You are mistaken here. The Catholic Church teaches about the baptism of blood (those that die for the faith without being baptized) and the baptism of desire (those that are prevented from baptism but would have requested it if it was available - like St. Dismas, the good thief). It also holds tha tGod is not bound by his sacraments. See: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VI

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace. - again, this is not talking about working for salvation, it’s talking about those who reject the truth of the gospel and continue in disobedience to God (the bible says every man is without excuse). It’s not saying that we have to do good works to be saved, it’s saying that His wrath and judgement will fall on those who reject His Lordship and live for themselves.

lets look:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

It most certainly says that you will gain eternal life through perseverance in good works and will be condemned if you disobey the truth adn obey wickedness.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.- If you read the whole chapter it says we live by faith, not by sight and are looking forward to our real home. It’s talking about rewards for works we did while in our mortal bodies, not our salvation. He goes on to talk about being a “new” creation in Christ. The most exciting verse in the chapter is the last two - vs20-21- Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

lets look a little closer:
18 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

You do realize that this letter was written to the Church in Corinth, right?. These people were already believers. Do you not realize that he is talking about the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) - reconciling with God for sins committed AFTER becoming believers.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy. - Makes no sense. How can a gift be called free if you have to earn it? We do earn our rewards however.

Again, a misunderstanding of the economy of salvation. You get the gift of grace for free - all you have to do is ask for it. But to STAY in the state of grace, you must do the will of God.

 

[paul_c]

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith. - Holiness means being set apart. If you are a child of God then you are already holy and set apart. .

Holiness means more than being set apart. It means being God like. You can achieve this with God’s help through devotion, prayer, sacrifice and the sacraments.

I could go through all the rest of the scriptures but it looks to me like it will be the same thing. The bible certainly talks about being judged on our works but it also says that Jesus bore the penalty for our sins and bore the wrath of God so that we wouldn’t have to. Those who appropriate the blood are no longer under condemnation for their sins. However, we will still be judged on our works while here on earth, judged for reward, not punishment.

Catholic theology eliminates this conflict completely. Jesus sacrificed himself so that our sins could be forgiven through the sacraments - but once we are washed clean we need to follow Jesus. If we do, we will inherit the kingdom of heaven… but if we turn away from Jesus through sin, then we will be condemned to hell. Jesus certainly didn’t die so that we could continue to sin with impunity…that is one of Satan’s more effective lies. He is of course too crafty to say " Jesus died so we could sin". He says as you do" Jesus died so our sins won’t count ." - but it means the same thing.

 

[paul_c]

In my earlier post, I gave you the specifics of exactly where I got it. If this isn’t good enough, We can no longer have a discussion about this topic. I have shown you both in the bible and the catholic catechism that corroborate my view.

Romans 2​

The Impartiality of God

** 1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things**. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7** to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life**; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law,** are a law to themselves**, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

(fpesce) - you might think this passage coroborates your position and it does. But keep reading…

Justification by Faith

  21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He **would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. **      27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. **28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.** 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 

  31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

I could go on and on, but at this point I know your heart is hardened to your own beliefs and you will not deviate. But I post this for all other readers of this post so you may know the truth and believe. If you believe you will be saved. Those are Jesus’s word. Can’t argue with that at all.

People will say it is MY interpretation. So I encourage you to read the Word for yourself. Invite Holy Spirit to give you the revelation of truth. Don’t take my word for it. Go the the bible, go to the Catechism and read for yourself from the beginning to the end, not one quote at a time. Seriously, THIS IS FOR YOUR ETERNAL SALVATION. Don’t go by what other people of friends tell you. God gave you a mind, use it. When you arrive at heaven’s gates, it is not going to do any good to use the excuse to say you had been deceived. It’s up to you. Let the Holy Spirit of God guide you.

God bless all of your guys I have been sharing with on this forum. I truly love all in Christ’s everlasting love. I only want the best God has for you and it begins here on earth and ends in the glory of heaven.

This is one of SATAN’s more effective half truths. Yes, you need to have faith to get to heaven and yes, you will be justified on this faith alone because you don’t need to do any good works to be baptized and enter into the state of Grace. all you need to do is request it. What Satan doesn’t say is that once you freely enter into the state of Grace, you need to do God’s will to stay there. He leads you to believe that once you declare belief in Jesus, your covenant obligations are complete, when in fact, they have just begun. We must FOLLOW Jesus, loving God and Neighbor and avoiding mortal sin (and confessing our sins if we do fall from grace), to enter into eternal life. That is the full story…

 

[fpesce]

And where is this in the Bible?

I shouldn’t have to show you… you should know.

But here it is for your enjoyment:

1 John 1:

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Honestly, it was my pleasure.

 

[ddarko]

You shouldn’t believe my personal interpretation, or necessarily trust any one else’s for that matter. You should pray, study God’s word for yourself and ask the best teacher (Holy Spirit) to give you revelation. Knowledge is important but without revelation in the spirit it’s just rationality.

Leadee, how on earth do you know the last claim?

You don’t make much sense here. You want to say “This is how things should be and you are not doing it right” but in the end, you don’t have any foundation for such a claim unless it is REASONABLE.

Telling me to pray about it and the Holy Spirit will guide me is NOT REASONABLE unless I already accept that the Holy Spirit or God made such a promise to me.

So no Leadee, your whole framework has a big kink in it. You’ve either just randomly decided on a book which happens to be the Bible. But you lack any rhyme or reason for doing so other than Biblical quotes themselves. That doesn’t help.

Therefore, tell me, how do I go from the Resurrection of Christ to Christianity using Reason? If you can’t establish the link in your framework, then your belief system is irrational.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

ddarko;8188300:

Actually, great question.

So the sin of Adam and Eve is that they knew PERFECTLY through REASON that God exists, God created the world and they decided to have FAITH in the Devil’s promises/claims instead. I thought sin of Adam and Eve was rebellion due to pride. They listened to the tempter and decided that they wanted to know as much as God, which is elevating self.

So that case is similar to someone who would arrive at Christianity through Reason, but then say “I know God loves me, but I don’t want to trust him. I want to do things my own way”. - If a person knows God loves them and rejects Him, they are chosing to put thier faith in themselves and not Him.

We can’t throw reasoning out the window. The bible says to worship God in spirit and in truth. In order to understand truth one has to do some reasoning. That being said, you cannot find God by sheer mental ascent. Even the demons believe. There will always be a faith factor involved.

Therefore the sin of Adam and Eve was actually not that they didn’t use reason. They used Reason because they were given a perfect ability to Reason before the fall. The SIN was that even with that perfect reason, they didn’t trust God.I’m not sure it’s necessarily a matter that they didn’t trust God, they rebelled against Him by choosing not to obey HIm, therefore elevating self and not putting Him first. I think the problem is the same for every human being since then. The bible says we know in our heart that God exists because Romans 1:20 says -" For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." so it always boils down to a matter of who or what you decide to put your fatih in.

So to tie back to my previous reply, Reason can tell us with CERTAINTY what God promises and who he is. But, we have to have FAITH in his promises in the end. - Very well put. What Adam and Eve did wrong was that they decided to have FAITH in the Devil’s words instead.

God wants us to LOVE him. That means to freely choose him. He tells us CLEARLY what he promises and we discover this through reason. No lover makes vague promises or makes it uncertain for the beloved to know what he means, right? So God, also does not keep us guessing. He gives us reason to discover his promises. But like a good spouse, we have to freely choose to trust him and love him back. - Amen!

Um Leadee, I never said that the sin of Adam and Eve was that they didn’t use reason. I was merely pointing out to the guy that Adam and Eve didn’t sin by using reason either.

Try to keep up.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

The summary of my understanding thus far is, catholics believe that you are not saved by faith alone. You are saved by grace but the grace is not sufficient to cover all your sins at one time because when you sin after you are saved you still have to do something to atone for those sins. Where’s the good news in that? It seems to me like a cruel joke to me. It’s like saying to someone - “I forgive you, come on in and be mine, I love you. But if you mess up you’re out again until you pay for your sin, then you can come back in. If you are really good, I mean PERFECT, then you can stay in for good.” How is that not completely conditional love?

The other choice would be that you are saved by grace through faith. God’s love is unconditional and all you have to do is receive it. He sent His only Son to pay the price for your sin (who’s blood is sufficient to cover all sin if applied by faith) so that you can come in and stay in, not having to worry about being perfect first. Instead of having to perfect yourself, having sin out of the way, God works in you to perfect you. Instead of working for your salvation you are working it out with His help. This option sure sounds like good news to me.

I’m sure people have a problem with this second option because that would mean having to trust God completely by faith and would mean they really don’t have any control in the matter because you have to hand all control over to God in submission. After all, isn’t this why we fell away from God in the first place, so that we could know enough to do our own thing without having to completely trust Him?

You do realize that all this very complicated discussions from you are stemming on an irrational foundation?

You are claiming how this doesn’t match that and this seems inconsistent with that etc. But your whole foundation is illogical. Perhaps if you worked on your foundations, you would realize WHAT to believe in the first place.

Right now, you interpret Scripture Alone. That is INCOMPLETE. The right way to do it is to interpret Scripture and Tradition together as a whole.

But of course the above is not clear to you because you never used REASON to build your foundation. You merely decided to pick a random book, which happened to be the Bible and just believe in it.

So my advice Leadee is to answer the tough questions first. Why do you believe the Bible is God’s word?

God Bless

 

[QuickCat]

Leadee: Excellent! You nailed it pretty well. We must remember that the gospel is hidden to them that are lost. Whom the god [small ‘g’] of this age has blinded them to the true gospel. 2 Cor. 4:3,4. Also, the natural man [the lost man] can not understand spiritual matters, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14. It is natural for man to think that he must “do something” in order to be saved. Mr. Dandy, previously, presented a laundry list of things that a lost person must do. And you are quite correct in stating that the lost man is “dead in trespasses and sins.” He is spiritually dead ands fits the description of 2 Cor. 4:2,3.
Grace and Peace,
Don J.
1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 1:13

 

[fhansen]

Generally speaking, ol’ Marty (Luther), really did a job on many, many souls down through the centuries by teaching that the individual is totally corrupt and that man’s free will is useless. It’s one of the biggest hangovers I ever seen. Devastating, just devastating!

Yes, in a very subtle way the reformed doctrines remove all moral responsibility from us-totally counter-intuitive/counter-common sense-and very dangerous. Suddenly, those who live their lives doing the right thing, being Good Samaritans, etc, are not as good as those who claim merely and solely to believe in God-and the work of His Son, who aren’t necessarily believing anything more than demons believe. Even 1 Cor 13 tells us that faith, by itself, is worthless. Very dangerous.

 

[PRmerger]

I shouldn’t have to show you… you should know.

But here it is for your enjoyment:

1 John 1:

7 but** if **we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Honestly, it was my pleasure.

Did you notice that little 2-letter word there in the Scripture verse, pesce?

It’s all over the Bible, BTW.

IF we do A then B happens.

But it’s a conditional B, eh?

 

[ddarko]

Leadee: Excellent! You nailed it pretty well. We must remember that the gospel is hidden to them that are lost. Whom the god [small ‘g’] of this age has blinded them to the true gospel. 2 Cor. 4:3,4. Also, the natural man [the lost man] can not understand spiritual matters, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14. It is natural for man to think that he must “do something” in order to be saved. Mr. Dandy, previously, presented a laundry list of things that a lost person must do. And you are quite correct in stating that the lost man is “dead in trespasses and sins.” He is spiritually dead ands fits the description of 2 Cor. 4:2,3.
Grace and Peace,
Don J.
1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 1:13

Well, I hope you can help him out here and perhaps yourself.

You made a lot of claims above ALL FROM THE BIBLE. So please answer the question for once,

How do you know that the Bible is God’s word?

If you cannot tell me with certainty that it is God’s word, then all you said above is mere speculation.

Leadee has “nailed” a lot of things based on an irrational foundation. That’s not exactly what I would call nailing things.

You can’t say that you have no rational basis to accept Scripture and then say I want to argue what Scripture says logically.

So my advice to you, just as I said to Leadee, start working on the foundation.

God Bless