P
PetrusRomanus
Guest
To be saved, one must do the will of the Father.
- Status
D
Della
Guest
Again, context is everything. Jesus will only say that to those who did not do what he commanded–to love God, to love ones neighbor by doing acts of charity for them. It is the doer of the word not merely the hearers of the word who are saved, as St. James tells us, and as Jesus tells us in the Gospels.
Love God, love others as Christ has loved you and you cannot go wrong. The fullness of the truth subsists within the Church Christ founded on Peter and the Apostles, so you can implicitly trust your salvation to following what the Church tells you to do.
J
jonathan_hili
Guest
Fair point.
F
fhansen
Guest
You can have assurance without having 100% certainty, which is reserved for God alone. Read Matt 25.
E
Eruvande
Guest
Thank you for your replies. It’s all quite alarming in one way, but reassuring in another. How can I know that the Catholic church is the right one? There’s so many claims out there, it’s all a bit head spinny. But aside from that, it does make sense about having to work out our salvation and not being 100% sure - if St Paul wasn’t 100% sure then how can I be?
Z
zz912
Guest
Welcome, and a couple thoughts for you.
Christ knows us, because He made us. And He designed the sacraments for us. He made us body AND spirit. He knows that we need a physical, carnal expression of our Faith so that we can connect with Him and His Church. This is especially true in the sacrament of Confession. We can always pray directly to God for forgiveness, and should daily. But Christ knows we need something more tangible, so He gave us Confession so that we could be assured through His Church of the forgiveness of sins.
And it is so important, that Jesus made sure to BREATH on the Apostles, to give them the Holy Spirit, and the authority to forgive sins. This is only the second other time when God breathed on something/someone. The other was when He created man. In the first instance, God gave us souls. In the second, He gave the Apostles the authority to heal those souls.
Z
zz912
Guest
The Bible tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and we are to know how to behave by remaining in the Church. So which “church” is this being referred to? Well it’s the same one that declared which books belong in the Bible.
Welcome, and keep the questions coming!
W
WD615
Guest
You can be certain the Catholic Church is the right church.
Jesus Christ and the Apostles established a church as an organization. The Catholic Church is directly descended from this organization. Even Protestants recognize this although they believe the Church was corrupted. However, this contradicts Jesus’ words “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Protestants can’t claim to descend from the early church. They originated in the 1500s or later depending on the denomination. Besides, why would God allow every single Christian to get such major things wrong as sola fide, sola Scriptura, baptism, etc. wrong for so many centuries.
The Orthodox are the only other existing group that can reasonably claim descent from the Apostolic Church. However, allegiance with the bishop of Rome is the only sensible way to determine what the Church is. This can be demonstrated from the position of Peter among the Apostles, the position of Rome in the early church, and the history of Rome being prevented from falling into official heresy. Otherwise, you’d have no way to determine if the Church of Rome or the Orthodox churches are correct.
Therefore, the Catholic Church is the only church which can claim to be descended from the early church. This is why God created a visible church so that we could know whose teaching the right things because the average person doesn’t have the time or even the ability to do all the learning/research to get the teachings right. And even the very learned and scholarly types will get it wrong. I’m reminded of one preacher who claimed to know Greek and said that “Israel” meant “peace” when the Bible says it means the opposite “wrestles with God”!
Jesus Christ and the Apostles established a church as an organization. The Catholic Church is directly descended from this organization. Even Protestants recognize this although they believe the Church was corrupted. However, this contradicts Jesus’ words “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Protestants can’t claim to descend from the early church. They originated in the 1500s or later depending on the denomination. Besides, why would God allow every single Christian to get such major things wrong as sola fide, sola Scriptura, baptism, etc. wrong for so many centuries.
The Orthodox are the only other existing group that can reasonably claim descent from the Apostolic Church. However, allegiance with the bishop of Rome is the only sensible way to determine what the Church is. This can be demonstrated from the position of Peter among the Apostles, the position of Rome in the early church, and the history of Rome being prevented from falling into official heresy. Otherwise, you’d have no way to determine if the Church of Rome or the Orthodox churches are correct.
Therefore, the Catholic Church is the only church which can claim to be descended from the early church. This is why God created a visible church so that we could know whose teaching the right things because the average person doesn’t have the time or even the ability to do all the learning/research to get the teachings right. And even the very learned and scholarly types will get it wrong. I’m reminded of one preacher who claimed to know Greek and said that “Israel” meant “peace” when the Bible says it means the opposite “wrestles with God”!
R
R_C
Guest
A very common notion circulating around the non-Catholic world is the notion of the “invisible church of believers”. This notion teaches that Jesus did not desire to create a single visible Church, but instead wished to create an invisible church of people who we bound simply by belief rather than membership of an organization or any practice. This philosophy finds a great number of adherents among those who believe in sola fides, sola scriptura and eternal assurance. This viewpoint is not specifically anti-Catholic (although there are people who hold to this view who are anti-Catholic) and often maintains that the Catholic Church is correct – but that no other sect is actually incorrect. It is enough to “believe in Jesus Christ” to be part of the church which He founded. Obviously, in addition to being illogical (how can both the Catholics who deny this and the non-Catholics who accept this both be right?), this is not the Catholic teaching.
A number of non-Catholics are using the word “catholic” (with a small “c”) to refer to this purported invisible church of believers. This is not correct. prior to 1517 (and perhaps even later) – the word “Catholic” was always used to refer to beliefs that were in accord with the bishop of Rome and the teachings of what would today be understood to be the Roman Catholic Church. The first appearance of the words “Catholic Church” in writing are a letter from Ignatius of Antioch who writes “Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” This clearly shows that the Catholic Church as identified by the person who first used the term in writing (although he probably did not coin the term) has bishops – the only Church of the period which had bishops (in fact, the only Church of the period!) was the Roman Catholic Church.
Non-Catholics claim that the word “catholic” simply means universal and, therefore, that it can refer to the universal invisible church of believers. But this is not the case – universal means “to be one”; and there are too many points of disagreement between the Catholic Church and non-Catholic denominations to be considered to be “one”.
Scripture and common sense make it very clear that the Church has authority – if the Church is an invisible church, then how can anyone know where to go for authoritative teaching and correction? When members of the invisible church hold contrary opinions, how can it be known who is correct unless the Church and her teaching authority are visible and clearly displayed? The fact that there must be a singular, visible, authoritative Church, disproves the idea of an invisible Church.
The view that the Church is visible, hierarchical, and authoritative forms a key understanding of all other Catholic doctrines. It is the Church who administers the sacraments, which are the ordinary means of salvation and grace. It is the Church who determined which books belonged in Sacred Scripture. Now, even Peter himself says that the Bible can be hard to understand (II Peter 3:16). Because different Christians have different interpretations of the Bible it cannot be self authenticating. This means that it must have an external source of authority in order to be correctly interpreted. That source of authority is the authority which wrote and assembled the Bible.
Scripture is clear that the Church has authority – in Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus delegates His power to the apostles. The authority to perform specific acts is given in other passages – John 20:23 (the power to forgive sin), I Corinthians 11:23-24 (the power to offer sacrifice, the Eucharist), Luke 10:16 (the power to speak with Christ’s voice), Matthew 18:18 (the power to legislate) and Matthew 18:17 (the power to discipline). From a perspective of pure common sense and logic, what would be the point of founding a Church (which Christ clearly wanted to do) without giving her authority? If the Church has no power, what what is she? She is simply a collection of believers with no power to enforce laws or discipline those who are dissident – anyone could claim to be a member of her even if they denied all the tenets of her laws and beliefs! Organizations logically require authority over their members and authority to determine what the criteria for membership are; otherwise they are not organizations at all, but simply a label without a clear definition.
The Church is often described as bearing four “marks” - One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Not only is the Church these things, but it is necessary for the Church to be these things.
Continued →
R
R_C
Guest
Continued —>
One: the Church is unified, single and one; there are not two or three or more true Churches, for two contradictory things cannot both be true, and if we narrow it down to the most basic set of two Churches and they are different, then at least one of them must be wrong - which proves that there is only one true Church.
Holy: If Jesus specifically founded something (as is shown above) and He intended it (or her) to have the authority to act in His place on Earth, how could it not be holy? This is shown by the fact that Jesus is married to the Church (Ephesians 5:22-32, Revelation 19:7, 21:2), by the teaching that marriage makes man and wife one flesh, and by the constant references in Scripture that the Church is Jesus’ Christ’s mystical body. The Church is Jesus Christ’s body and is, therefore, holy (although individual members of the Church are not impeccable).
Catholic: “catholic” means universal – the Church established by Jesus Christ must be universal and be found everywhere. Because the Church also has to be one it has to be universal – there could not be national or geographically limited Churches because they would either teach different things, or they would – in fact – be one Church. The Catholic Church is the only Christian “denomination” in the world to not be split into geographically local groups and to have consistent theological teachings across all individual places of worship. She is also found on every continent and in virtually every country in the world, and is constantly expanding. Her membership is open to all and she has endured for nearly 2000 years. It has at this point over 1.2 billion Christians (the majority in 67 countries), 5000+ bishops, 409000+ priests, 37000+ deacons - all evenly distributed all over the world. By anyone’s standard, that has to be considered universal.
Apostolic: the Church claims genuine descent from the apostles who were selected and chosen by Jesus Christ. Jesus desired to found a Church which would contain genuine priests who were capable of acting in His place to administer the ordinary means of salvation, the sacraments. Jesus chose men to be His apostles and gave them a special mission. The book of Acts (the story of the early Church) is full of examples of men being appointed to the office of priest by other priests (this is apostolic succession). Saint Paul says, very clearly, in Ephesians 2:20 that the Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Clearly, therefore, Jesus wanted a Church which not only had a priesthood, but also a Church whose priesthood could claim legitimate descent from the apostles. Today, the only Church which has legitimate descent from the apostles is the Catholic Church.
Additionally, simple logic tells us that the Church which has authority, is visible, is apostolic and which was founded specifically by God as the ordinary means of salvation has to be perpetual.
Logically speaking, when it is shown that the Church must possess the four marks she does, that she possess authority and that she is perpetual it is completely necessary for her to be visible and identifiable! How else would people be able to find the Church if she were invisible?
I end with a mention of the basic tenet of the Church of Rome as “the Church that presides in charity”. The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the entire world. Consider as an example our country, the US, where we have 2210+ million dollars in charity. Consider this graph for the African continent. And according to estimates, Catholic institutions give work to over 1 million people (without considering the 1.1 million priests and religious).
I hope the above helps.
One: the Church is unified, single and one; there are not two or three or more true Churches, for two contradictory things cannot both be true, and if we narrow it down to the most basic set of two Churches and they are different, then at least one of them must be wrong - which proves that there is only one true Church.
Holy: If Jesus specifically founded something (as is shown above) and He intended it (or her) to have the authority to act in His place on Earth, how could it not be holy? This is shown by the fact that Jesus is married to the Church (Ephesians 5:22-32, Revelation 19:7, 21:2), by the teaching that marriage makes man and wife one flesh, and by the constant references in Scripture that the Church is Jesus’ Christ’s mystical body. The Church is Jesus Christ’s body and is, therefore, holy (although individual members of the Church are not impeccable).
Catholic: “catholic” means universal – the Church established by Jesus Christ must be universal and be found everywhere. Because the Church also has to be one it has to be universal – there could not be national or geographically limited Churches because they would either teach different things, or they would – in fact – be one Church. The Catholic Church is the only Christian “denomination” in the world to not be split into geographically local groups and to have consistent theological teachings across all individual places of worship. She is also found on every continent and in virtually every country in the world, and is constantly expanding. Her membership is open to all and she has endured for nearly 2000 years. It has at this point over 1.2 billion Christians (the majority in 67 countries), 5000+ bishops, 409000+ priests, 37000+ deacons - all evenly distributed all over the world. By anyone’s standard, that has to be considered universal.
Apostolic: the Church claims genuine descent from the apostles who were selected and chosen by Jesus Christ. Jesus desired to found a Church which would contain genuine priests who were capable of acting in His place to administer the ordinary means of salvation, the sacraments. Jesus chose men to be His apostles and gave them a special mission. The book of Acts (the story of the early Church) is full of examples of men being appointed to the office of priest by other priests (this is apostolic succession). Saint Paul says, very clearly, in Ephesians 2:20 that the Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Clearly, therefore, Jesus wanted a Church which not only had a priesthood, but also a Church whose priesthood could claim legitimate descent from the apostles. Today, the only Church which has legitimate descent from the apostles is the Catholic Church.
Additionally, simple logic tells us that the Church which has authority, is visible, is apostolic and which was founded specifically by God as the ordinary means of salvation has to be perpetual.
Logically speaking, when it is shown that the Church must possess the four marks she does, that she possess authority and that she is perpetual it is completely necessary for her to be visible and identifiable! How else would people be able to find the Church if she were invisible?
I end with a mention of the basic tenet of the Church of Rome as “the Church that presides in charity”. The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the entire world. Consider as an example our country, the US, where we have 2210+ million dollars in charity. Consider this graph for the African continent. And according to estimates, Catholic institutions give work to over 1 million people (without considering the 1.1 million priests and religious).
I hope the above helps.
E
Eruvande
Guest
Yes, that is helpful, and raises a lot of things I hadn’t properly considered before now wrt the invisible church.
You are all challenging me to think more deeply than I have before, thank you.
You are all challenging me to think more deeply than I have before, thank you.
po18guy
Well-known member
To Eruvande: Welcome!
As to salvation: No one is saved until they are in heaven. That is the only place where thief does not break in and we and our our treasure are safe (Luke 12:33). To believe that we are saved prior to entering the Kingdom is to risk deluding oneself, or to put God to the test. Although I am no expert, I do not believe either is a good practice.
Now, Who saves us? As Christians, we believe that it is Jesus Christ, the only Son of God. What did the Father say from heaven about His Son? At Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22), He said, “This is My beloved Son…” Later at the transfiguration, God said, “This is my well-beloved Son. Listen to Him.” (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35).
Before we can follow Him, we must first listen to Him. When we choose to follow Him, we must first do two things: deny ourselves and take up our cross daily (Matthew 16:24, Luke 9:23). There is much debate regarding just what this entails. However, sometihng our Lord said sticks with me: “He who perseveres to the end will be saved” (Matthew 10:22 & 24:13, Mark 13:13) Now, this is not Peter, or Paul, any of the Apostles, the early Church Fathers, or even the Pope speaking. This is the One Who actually does the saving - our sole Mediator before the throne of God.
Thus, His teachings are paramount and all other Christian teachings must accord with and be viewed in light of what Jesus says to us. If Jesus, our Savior, says that we must persevere to the end, that means that we are not yet saved. The fact that we have the possibility of not persevering to the end also means that there is no automatic assurance of salvation. Attached to His promise of salvation is the largest two-letter word in the language: “if.”
We know also that some work is involved. Faith, after all, is a work. But, it is a condition that is transient. We will have no faith in heaven, as none is needed there. We will have no hope in heaven, as we have then realized that for which we have hoped. What remains? Love. We have our Lord’s commandment to love one another as He loved us. And, since we all came into being through Him (John 1:3), we know that He loved us first. Our love of the Godhead (the first, and the greatest of the commandments (Matthew 22:38) must be reflected in our love of one another, through which we will be known as disciples (John 13:35).
Yet, we fail at love - we fail at all things. Yet, our confidence comes from the fact that our Lord did not set the hurdle too high for even the weakest of us to surpass. He gave us the Sacraments, through which God’s grace flows into hearts which invite Him. We know that "He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). When He forgave sin, Jesus said as much to those whose sins were forgiven (Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20 & 7:48). We know that He gave power over sin to the Apostles (John 20:23) and told them, “He who hears you hears Me.” (Luke 10:16).
James tells us to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16). We know that Paul forgave sins in the person of Christ, just as do Catholic Priests (2 Corinthians 2:10). Thus, our ears are supposed to hear those same words of absolution, rather than the silence of confessing to heaven. Our justification, once lost through sin, is restored via the Sacrament of confession, which absolves us of our sins. This provides the on-going comfort which you seek as you persevere - toward the Kingdom.
We need to be fed. Our Lord feeds us via His Body and Blood, given for us (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, John 6) as the Holy Eucharist - the source and summit of Christian faith. You need not even be Christian, or consume the Eucharist to absorb grace from Christ via the Eucharist. You may go and spend time in Christ’s physical presence at adoration of the Blessed Sacrament at most Catholic parishes. I always recommend this particular devotion to our Lord, as innumerable graces flow from it. Miracles of conversion and healing occur, actually.
Initially, we are justified by our faith (Romans 3:28). We are saved by our hope (Romans 8:24). But, love is the greatest of all, (1 Corinthians 13:13) and is the maturation of both faith and hope. Through love, we become more like God Himself, as Jesus also commandss us (Matthew 5:48). To this end, Jesus founded a Church and gave it all authority (Matthew 18:18). Paul preached reconciliation with God to those already converted, and of his ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18, 5:20). That Church, reflecting the love of Christ through the Sacraments, offers us every opportunity to be reconciled with God - for the purpose of spending all eternity with Him.
As to salvation: No one is saved until they are in heaven. That is the only place where thief does not break in and we and our our treasure are safe (Luke 12:33). To believe that we are saved prior to entering the Kingdom is to risk deluding oneself, or to put God to the test. Although I am no expert, I do not believe either is a good practice.
Now, Who saves us? As Christians, we believe that it is Jesus Christ, the only Son of God. What did the Father say from heaven about His Son? At Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22), He said, “This is My beloved Son…” Later at the transfiguration, God said, “This is my well-beloved Son. Listen to Him.” (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35).
Before we can follow Him, we must first listen to Him. When we choose to follow Him, we must first do two things: deny ourselves and take up our cross daily (Matthew 16:24, Luke 9:23). There is much debate regarding just what this entails. However, sometihng our Lord said sticks with me: “He who perseveres to the end will be saved” (Matthew 10:22 & 24:13, Mark 13:13) Now, this is not Peter, or Paul, any of the Apostles, the early Church Fathers, or even the Pope speaking. This is the One Who actually does the saving - our sole Mediator before the throne of God.
Thus, His teachings are paramount and all other Christian teachings must accord with and be viewed in light of what Jesus says to us. If Jesus, our Savior, says that we must persevere to the end, that means that we are not yet saved. The fact that we have the possibility of not persevering to the end also means that there is no automatic assurance of salvation. Attached to His promise of salvation is the largest two-letter word in the language: “if.”
We know also that some work is involved. Faith, after all, is a work. But, it is a condition that is transient. We will have no faith in heaven, as none is needed there. We will have no hope in heaven, as we have then realized that for which we have hoped. What remains? Love. We have our Lord’s commandment to love one another as He loved us. And, since we all came into being through Him (John 1:3), we know that He loved us first. Our love of the Godhead (the first, and the greatest of the commandments (Matthew 22:38) must be reflected in our love of one another, through which we will be known as disciples (John 13:35).
Yet, we fail at love - we fail at all things. Yet, our confidence comes from the fact that our Lord did not set the hurdle too high for even the weakest of us to surpass. He gave us the Sacraments, through which God’s grace flows into hearts which invite Him. We know that "He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). When He forgave sin, Jesus said as much to those whose sins were forgiven (Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20 & 7:48). We know that He gave power over sin to the Apostles (John 20:23) and told them, “He who hears you hears Me.” (Luke 10:16).
James tells us to confess our sins to one another (James 5:16). We know that Paul forgave sins in the person of Christ, just as do Catholic Priests (2 Corinthians 2:10). Thus, our ears are supposed to hear those same words of absolution, rather than the silence of confessing to heaven. Our justification, once lost through sin, is restored via the Sacrament of confession, which absolves us of our sins. This provides the on-going comfort which you seek as you persevere - toward the Kingdom.
We need to be fed. Our Lord feeds us via His Body and Blood, given for us (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, John 6) as the Holy Eucharist - the source and summit of Christian faith. You need not even be Christian, or consume the Eucharist to absorb grace from Christ via the Eucharist. You may go and spend time in Christ’s physical presence at adoration of the Blessed Sacrament at most Catholic parishes. I always recommend this particular devotion to our Lord, as innumerable graces flow from it. Miracles of conversion and healing occur, actually.
Initially, we are justified by our faith (Romans 3:28). We are saved by our hope (Romans 8:24). But, love is the greatest of all, (1 Corinthians 13:13) and is the maturation of both faith and hope. Through love, we become more like God Himself, as Jesus also commandss us (Matthew 5:48). To this end, Jesus founded a Church and gave it all authority (Matthew 18:18). Paul preached reconciliation with God to those already converted, and of his ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18, 5:20). That Church, reflecting the love of Christ through the Sacraments, offers us every opportunity to be reconciled with God - for the purpose of spending all eternity with Him.
F
fhansen
Guest
Assurance should be plenty. We can trust God to do the right thing, but, if we could always be trusted then there’d be no reason to work out our salvation. And Paul didn’t have 100% certainty, as Phil 3:7-9 makes clear.
A
asd72
Guest
Read slowly and meditate on 1Cor 10:13
1 I want you to be quite certain, brothers, that our ancestors all had the cloud over them and all passed through the sea.
2 In the cloud and in the sea they were all baptised into Moses;
3 all ate the same spiritual food
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, since they drank from the spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ.
5 In spite of this, God was not pleased with most of them, and their corpses were scattered over the desert.
6** Now these happenings were examples**, for our benefit, so that we should never set our hearts, as they did, on evil things;
7 nor are you to worship false gods, as some of them did, as it says in scripture: The people sat down to eat and drink, and afterwards got up to amuse themselves.
8 Nor, again, are we to fall into sexual immorality; some of them did this, and twenty-three thousand met their downfall in one day.
9 And we are not to put the Lord to the test; some of them put him to the test, and they were killed by snakes.
10 Never complain; some of them complained, and they were killed by the Destroyer.
11** Now all these things happened to them by way of example**, and they were described in writing to be** a lesson for us, to whom it has fallen to live in the last days of the ages. **
12 Everyone, no matter how firmly he thinks he is standing, must be careful he does not fall.
13 None of the trials which have come upon you is more than a human being can stand. You can trust that God will not let you be put to the test beyond your strength, but with any trial will also provide a way out by enabling you to put up with it.
The old testament shows ‘types’ and this passage shows a ‘type’ of our salvation. We have passed through the Red sea, which is a ‘type’ of Baptism, but we must journey to the New Jerusalem of Heaven, through the wilderness of testing. Now, as then, not everyone enters His Rest.
The last days of the ages refers to the age of the Church. This example is for us! Don’t be mislead. Salvation is not a one-time verbal assent to Jesus, that is not historical Christianity, not even historical Protestant Christianity.
We are saved from the slavery of sin by repentence and Baptism into the convenant family of God, but the rest of our life is a wilderness journey. We may fall along the way, like David, and need to be reconcilled to God. We need to remember what sin does to our relationship with God. Look at the parable of the prodigal son, his sin resulted in spirit death in relation to Father (Luke 15:31). Sin is not just about broken rules, it is about broken relationships, it seperates us from God.
Hope, not assurance is a better and more accurate way to think. Assurance theology is what Catholicism would describe as presumption, which is to be avoided.
1 I want you to be quite certain, brothers, that our ancestors all had the cloud over them and all passed through the sea.
2 In the cloud and in the sea they were all baptised into Moses;
3 all ate the same spiritual food
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, since they drank from the spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ.
5 In spite of this, God was not pleased with most of them, and their corpses were scattered over the desert.
6** Now these happenings were examples**, for our benefit, so that we should never set our hearts, as they did, on evil things;
7 nor are you to worship false gods, as some of them did, as it says in scripture: The people sat down to eat and drink, and afterwards got up to amuse themselves.
8 Nor, again, are we to fall into sexual immorality; some of them did this, and twenty-three thousand met their downfall in one day.
9 And we are not to put the Lord to the test; some of them put him to the test, and they were killed by snakes.
10 Never complain; some of them complained, and they were killed by the Destroyer.
11** Now all these things happened to them by way of example**, and they were described in writing to be** a lesson for us, to whom it has fallen to live in the last days of the ages. **
12 Everyone, no matter how firmly he thinks he is standing, must be careful he does not fall.
13 None of the trials which have come upon you is more than a human being can stand. You can trust that God will not let you be put to the test beyond your strength, but with any trial will also provide a way out by enabling you to put up with it.
The old testament shows ‘types’ and this passage shows a ‘type’ of our salvation. We have passed through the Red sea, which is a ‘type’ of Baptism, but we must journey to the New Jerusalem of Heaven, through the wilderness of testing. Now, as then, not everyone enters His Rest.
The last days of the ages refers to the age of the Church. This example is for us! Don’t be mislead. Salvation is not a one-time verbal assent to Jesus, that is not historical Christianity, not even historical Protestant Christianity.
We are saved from the slavery of sin by repentence and Baptism into the convenant family of God, but the rest of our life is a wilderness journey. We may fall along the way, like David, and need to be reconcilled to God. We need to remember what sin does to our relationship with God. Look at the parable of the prodigal son, his sin resulted in spirit death in relation to Father (Luke 15:31). Sin is not just about broken rules, it is about broken relationships, it seperates us from God.
Hope, not assurance is a better and more accurate way to think. Assurance theology is what Catholicism would describe as presumption, which is to be avoided.
E
Eruvande
Guest
OK, bearing all this in mind - what is the point of the cross if we are saved by living a good life?
A
Aaron_Creagh
Guest
catholic.com/magazine/articles/baptism-saves-you
Water being poured over you, does not save you.
John 's baptism was for the remission of sins.
The baptism of Jesus is the one you want…
Get a little Jesus in you literally…
It’s called the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.
A
Aaron_Creagh
Guest
I definitely am not of the “once saved. always saved” crowd.
The bible tells us way to often to “protect our salvation.”
The bible tells us way to often to “protect our salvation.”
W
WD615
Guest
Well, good works don’t save you. You are saved by the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You can’t accomplish salvation on your own (which is Pelagianism). You can’t even make the first step with God’s help to do the rest (semi-Pelagianism). It is God’s grace that saves while we can choose to cooperate or not. God makes the first step, he first loved us and all. We can cooperate and that’s where good works, faith, love, etc. come in.
A
Aaron_Creagh
Guest
I definitely am not of the “once saved. always saved” crowd.
The bible tells us way too often to “protect our salvation.”
The bible tells us way too often to “protect our salvation.”
po18guy
Well-known member
We are not saved until we are in heaven. Water baptism is the beginning of the journey, and regenerates our souls. You are correct in the Holy Spirit, as His presence and influence in our lives cannot be underestimated. It is still the Body and Blood of Christ that made our reconciliation with God the Father possible, and sustain and nourish us, by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, you are 100% correct that the Holy Spirit is involved in this regenerated life - He is just not alone!
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