What must I do to be saved?

[Porknpie]

Jerry-Jet, please quit ranting. What you are doing is providing a misinterpretation of John 15. Deal with this:

John 10:22-30 teaches about Jesus sheep, and these really are saved people. Here it is:

So we know who are NOT Jesus’ sheep, and we know who are. Jesus’ sheep have eternal life. Jesus’ sheep will never perish. In fact, a bit more exegesis on “never” in verse 28 clearly tells us that they will “never, not now or at any future time, perish.”

Regards, OldProf

Old Prof -

You really don’t know if you are one of Jesus’s sheep if you do not eat his body and drink his blood, Christ’s words say to “do this”. There is nothing symbolic here. Again, I point out the words of St Ignatius and Justin Martyr as examples of the belief in the early Church in the 2nd century. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is and was the belief of the same Church that gave you your bible. In other words, the Catholic Church has believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist for 2,000 years, including at the time when the Church canonized the bible that you are reading.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

Old Prof, Justin Martyr says “we have been taught” …by Christ who taught the apostles, who taught their descendants. You have been taught by those who have been misled into believing the Lords Supper is a symbolic meal.

Read the Church Fathers and find where they speak of the Lords Supper being a symbolic meal (they don’t).

It all about assurance of Salvation Old Prof…hopeful confidence as St Paul says, but not false assurance.

With Charity,

Pork

 

[Eruvande]

OK, I’m trying to take on board what y’all are saying. Everyone seems to be saying that good works will follow living faith - but what works? What exactly am I supposed to do after coming to faith?

 

[paul_c]

Jerry-Jet, please quit ranting. What you are doing is providing a misinterpretation of John 15.

I’m sorry, OldProf , but where did you get YOUR interpretations of John 15?

Deal with this:

John 10:22-30 teaches about Jesus sheep, and these really are saved people. Here it is:

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

So we know who are NOT Jesus’ sheep, and we know who are. Jesus’ sheep have eternal life. Jesus’ sheep will never perish. In fact, a bit more exegesis on “never” in verse 28 clearly tells us that they will “never, not now or at any future time, perish.”

All we know is that those who were trying to trap Jesus in this verse were not Jesus’s sheep. but you can’t extend that to anyone else. and don’t add your own words to scripture.

That is a STRONG NEVER! Jerry-Jet, can you deal with that? The sheep have eternal life and never, not now or at any future time, perish. So we ALL can agree that this is exactly what Jesus is teaching here, correct?

No, we do not agree. Jesus teaches that no one can snatch the sheep from his hand… But he does not say they can’t wander off on their own. You need to stop reading scripture so selectively and see the whole of scripture from the Catholic tradition which created it. Then you could reconcile ALL that was written, instead of fooling yourself with half the story. You do yourself and others a great disservice by doing it this way.

Eruvande, you ask, “What must I do to be saved?” The biblical answer is you must recognize that you are a sinner in need of a Savior. You need to repent of your sins and believe in Jesus Christ. Then you will be saved and good works will flow from your salvation.

But there is more than this, isn’t there. You must love God and others. You must eat His body and Drink his blood (John 6), You must be baptized (Acts 2). Don’t mislead him by telling him that Faith alone is sufficient. As James says in 2:24, faith without works is dead. and as Paul says in 1Cor 13, If you had faith enough to move mountains but do no have love, you are nothing

You also wonder about the assurance of salvation. You wonder how you can know if you are one of Jesus’ sheep - a VERY GOOD and important question. I mentioned the Evidence Lists above, but please see my post #72:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=658668&highlight=OldProf&page=5

Read it carefully and review the ensuing discussion there - it should be very helpful based on your questions given so far on this thread.

Regards, OldProf

Hopefully he reads the parts where we demonstrate clearly that assurance of heaven is demanding that God accepts you because you want him to, even if you fail to do God’s will. Who are we to demand any guarantee from God?

 

[Miriam1947]

OK, I’m trying to take on board what y’all are saying. Everyone seems to be saying that good works will follow living faith - but what works? What exactly am I supposed to do after coming to faith?

Feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit the sick and elderly, visit the prisoner. For Jesus said, “What you do for the least of these, you do for me.”

 

[fhansen]

OK, I’m trying to take on board what y’all are saying. Everyone seems to be saying that good works will follow living faith - but what works? What exactly am I supposed to do after coming to faith?

Faith comes first-and leads to increasing obedience. That’s what faith is-the first step in man turning back to God. Adam’s sin was the first act of disobedience-of turning away from God and along with that act faith/trust died in man. So faith is a placing ourselves under God’s control again (He becomes the God of man as per the New Covenant prophesy of Jer 31), whereupon He begins the work of placing His laws on our hearts and writing them in our minds, also per the same prophesy. The works that flow from this are works of love as well as obedience to His will in general. We trust that He’ll complete His work in us, but He desires our cooperation in this- that our wills are also involved, reversing Adams free decision, within ourselves. The Parable of the Talents is very good at describing how God deals with His servants, how grace and our cooperation with it are to work.

 

[paul_c]

OK, I’m trying to take on board what y’all are saying. Everyone seems to be saying that good works will follow living faith - but what works? What exactly am I supposed to do after coming to faith?

Step 1: be baptized
step 2: love your neighbor as yourself and love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength (this is the great commandment- it sums up the 10 commandments and is the basis for the spiritual and corporal works of mercy). By love, by the way, we mean to do things for the benefit of others without expecting anything in return. If you wonder how exactly you are to love, start with the following 3 readings:
Luke 18:18-23
matthew 25: 31-46
1Cor 13
step 3: partake of the sacraments so that you will be strengthened with grace.

 

[Eruvande]

Well, I’m baptized already, and we do works of mercy (I don’t think it would be appropriate to list those things, they’re between me and the Lord), so I suppose what I lack is the sacraments. Not sure what to do about that.

 

[Della]

Well, I’m baptized already, and we do works of mercy (I don’t think it would be appropriate to list those things, they’re between me and the Lord), so I suppose what I lack is the sacraments. Not sure what to do about that.

For the sacraments, besides baptism which you have already received, you call your local Catholic parish and sign up for their Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults classes, called RCIA. RCIA programs usually start in September and end at Easter Vigil (the evening before Easter Sunday) with being baptized (for those not already baptized), confirmed and your first reception of the Holy Eucharist. You would probably make your first confession just before that evening since you are baptized.

So, in the meantime, you can learn as much as you wish to know about the Catholic faith, and be praying about it. If you enter RCIA and find that being a Catholic is not what you believe you should do, you may withdraw at any time. No one will pressure you into anything. And, your faith journey so far is just as much as part of your spiritual development as becoming Catholic, so you don’t have to negate all the good you’ve learned/experienced. Rather, you would be building on the good in order to receive what is better–a core principle of the Catholic understanding of human nature. For we don’t believe in total depravity, but rather that we humans are wounded in intellect, heart, and spirit, but that we can be recreated in Christ and restored to the grace we received at baptism. I hope that helps. You have my prayers.

 

[OldProf]

OK, I’m trying to take on board what y’all are saying. Everyone seems to be saying that good works will follow living faith - but what works? What exactly am I supposed to do after coming to faith?

I think I owe others responses to their many GOOD questions since my last post. But I want to answer you quickly at the end of my lunch hour.

Paul also says good works follow faith:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

Do you do your “good works” in a way that brings glory to you, or glory to Jesus Christ?

Jesus said, 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matt 7:21-23)

It is “many” who do their “good works for Christ” in a way that glorifies themselves, and they have that terrible false assurance that they are headed for heaven - their heart is not submitted to God because they are not one of Jesus’ sheep, for He NEVER knew them. Sad to say this likely represents nominal Christians who warm the pews often.

Again, I would point to the “Evidence Lists” and there is one thing I have found very helpful - the little letter of 1 John. Read through 1 John. The sheep of Jesus will agree over and over and over again with these statements, and then they will read, " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13)

I have to say that I agree with all of 1 John and, therefore, my assurance of my own salvation is grounded in what John says in verse 5:13. Glory be to God!

OldProf

 

[paul_c]

I think I owe others responses to their many GOOD questions since my last post. But I want to answer you quickly at the end of my lunch hour.

Paul also says good works follow faith:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

Do you do your “good works” in a way that brings glory to you, or glory to Jesus Christ?

Jesus said, 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matt 7:21-23)

It is “many” who do their “good works for Christ” in a way that glorifies themselves, and they have that terrible false assurance that they are headed for heaven - their heart is not submitted to God because they are not one of Jesus’ sheep, for He NEVER knew them. Sad to say this likely represents nominal Christians who warm the pews often.

This is insightful. It goes along with Matthew 6, where Jesus speaks of those who pray, give alms and fast in order to be seen and not out of love. Jesus says of these people, : you will recieve no recompense from God since you have already received your reward (public acclamation). And you are right that many of these people think they are checking off items on a list that will get them to heaven.

Again, I would point to the “Evidence Lists” and there is one thing I have found very helpful - the little letter of 1 John. Read through 1 John. The sheep of Jesus will agree over and over and over again with these statements, and then they will read, " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13)

I have to say that I agree with all of 1 John and, therefore, my assurance of my own salvation is grounded in what John says in verse 5:13. Glory be to God!

OldProf

Be careful with your lists. God is not beholden to the list or required to guarantee any thing to man. And his judgement is based on far more information than we have access to. Do what the church teaches: Love God and Neighbor and partake of the sacraments and you will have peace of mind (but not assurance of heaven).

 

[Philthy]

OK, I’m trying to take on board what y’all are saying. Everyone seems to be saying that good works will follow living faith - but what works? What exactly am I supposed to do after coming to faith?

John 13:34; 14:21
I give you a new commandment - love one another. As I have loved you, so too shall you love one another. This is how all will know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another…
Anyone who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me and …will be loved by my Father…

The following meditation is an excerpt from “The Better Part: A Christ-centered Resource for Personal Prayer” John Bartunek, LC

In speaking these words to his Apostles at the end of his ministry Christ knew that they love him, but he “earnestly desires to teach them how to live out that love. It is not in pretty words, it is not merely in rituals and prayers, it is not in lengthy theological treatises - it is in obedience to the wishes of his heart; it is in imitating his love for them. Love made into action, into serving our brothers and sisters, giving our lives for them - just like Christ’s love from Calvary’s cross - is the only mark of a follower of Christ. Jesus never tires of repeating this. He wants to convince us that everything else is in a distant second place. If, having discovered his love for us, we courageously and trustingly leave behind our self-absorption and launch out on the enlivening and everlasting adventure of loving in the same way, we will finally discover and experience what we were created for and what we long for. In the end, we will be judged on our love - love for God lived out in love for our neighbor.”

“Do this and you will live” Luke 10:28

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” 29But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35And the next day he took out two denariic and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ 36Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”

And so, the answer to the question, “What must I do?” is readily answered, but it leads us all too quickly to another, more problematic question; “How can I possibly do this?”. And the answer to that question becomes clear in short order: - it is, “I can’t!” The recognition of that very difficult answer will ultimately lead us more deeply into the fullness of a life of faith in Christ and, by extension and necessity, His Church through which He has provided us for all time, in unique ways, Himself.

Blessings

 

[yogosans14]

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Pretty simple tbh, if your protestant like me (im not really any tbh) you can still be saved but your pretty much following like a very watered down version of Catholicism.

Thats why I plan to convert to Catholicism when I turn 18 (of course I have to undergo RCIA first)

 

[OldProf]

It is true that no one can SNATCH them out of Jesus’ hand. The passage no where says that Jesus will not allow thoser in His hands the freedom to leave if that is what they want!

JJ, that is exactly right! There is nothing in John 10:22-30 that even hints at freewill. The non-sheep don’t believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep. The sheep are given to Him by the Father (John 6:37-40, 44-47, 65). Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9), and here we are told the sheep are given ETERNAL LIFE and they will NEVER PERISH.

Jesus’ sheep hear Jesus’ voice and follow Him. such sheep would NEVER DISOBEY the voice of Jesus and refuse to eat his Body and his blood–such disobeying sheep are obviously NOT the sheep that jesus will, give eternal life to!

The sheep that will NEVER perish are the ELECT but ONLY Jesus knows who they are.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to know with certainty who the elect are. would you be able to state EXACTLY which members of your own church are the ELECT Old Prof and which ones are FAUX believers? How are you able to do that–can you see inside their souls?

Actually, I agree with you. All I can do is look at the fruit, but I cannot know who the elect are. God knows. And we can know about our eternal life (1 John 5:13).

Tell me Old Prof–the disciples of Jesus who LEFT him in John 6:66 because they chose not to believe his teaching about Eating his body and drinking his blood–were they His sheep or not?

Was Judas His sheep or not?

Not. Not. I agree with John who writes, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” (1 John 2:19) They were never believers. Regarding Judas, there was a fairly decent discussion of him on the assurance threads, you will remember.

Practically it makes no difference to us as we live our lives that the Elect will be saved if we never know if we are the elect or not.

Since John tells me, “13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13), I believe we can have joy and peace in our salvation.

Of course Jesus knows who will be PERSEVERING when their lives end–but the people themselves–during the years of their lives can moved from saved to unsaved to saved–the fact that Jesus KNOIWS whether they will be in a state of MORTAL SIN or a state of grace–that doesn’t inform them of how they will wind up–it’s like the day of judgement–the fact that God knows the exact day and hour doesn’t mean that we know it.

And since we don’t know it we have to live our lives like it could come at anytime.

And while it is true that good works will flow from salvation it doesn’t mean that at ALL TIMES after salvation that they will flow–sometimes people will mortally sin–when that happens the good works STOP FLOWING.

Initial Salvation does not seal a soul–it is the totality of the salvific journey of life that seals salvation. Jesus knows already what the totality is for every one.

The fact that He knows it does not mean that we know it. The fact that he gives his sheep eternal life does not mean that we know if we are one of his persevering sheep. We might have indeed started the salvation journey–that doesn’t mean that we know already whether we will complete the salvation journey. … snip

Again, JJ, you seem to go on a bit of a rant, and I’m running out of room for a response. There a quite a few ways to challenge your statements, but the obvious direction is to simply refer back to John 10:22-30 where we started. A sheep of Jesus = eternal life = never perish. It’s not a blinking light like you just described. Really. If it is, then the most merciful thing we could do is kill the person right after their baptism and full confession. Then they have NO CHANCE TO COMMIT A MORTAL SIN!

Everyone, think about this: Paul tells us, “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” (1 Cor 10:13). Also, “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” (Romans 8:28) That simply cannot apply to “initial salvation” = sheep = commits mortal sin and then dies = spends eternity in hell.

No, but those two verses do fit this: The “Born of God” one becomes a believer = sheep of Jesus = eternal life = spiritual life = not sinless, but always saddened by sin and repentant to God = does good works, but then dies physically = spends eternity in heaven. Glory be to God!

OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Old Prof -

You really don’t know if you are one of Jesus’s sheep if you do not eat his body and drink his blood, Christ’s words say to “do this”. There is nothing symbolic here. Again, I point out the words of St Ignatius and Justin Martyr as examples of the belief in the early Church in the 2nd century. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is and was the belief of the same Church that gave you your bible. In other words, the Catholic Church has believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist for 2,000 years, including at the time when the Church canonized the bible that you are reading.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

Old Prof, Justin Martyr says “we have been taught” …by Christ who taught the apostles, who taught their descendants. You have been taught by those who have been misled into believing the Lords Supper is a symbolic meal.

Read the Church Fathers and find where they speak of the Lords Supper being a symbolic meal (they don’t).

It all about assurance of Salvation Old Prof…hopeful confidence as St Paul says, but not false assurance.

With Charity,

Pork

Pork, I appreciate your argument here. This is something I could argue in a similar way if I were Roman Catholic, but I would have to research it and know the argument much better.

The Gospel of John is interesting in that the verb “believe” and its forms are used about 100 times, and specifically in John 6 we have the evidence of Jesus miracle (vv. 1-14) and teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum (v. 59) He gives His great discourse on the Bread of Life (vv. 22-58). Note these verses:

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

There is, I think, a very good possibility that anyone who believes (true believer) actually eats Christ’s body and drinks Christ’s blood - a parallelism based on the teaching and comparison with Moses “manna” (actually from God, but not effecacious for eternal life) and with Christ’s miracle the day before. Thus, believer = elect one = eternal life = one who eats the body and drinks the blood of Christ. This is a faily common interpretation of John 6 from reformed theology.

Here is an article with some discussion on John 6 and references to the Early Church Fathers:

the-highway.com/eucharist_Webster.html

Webster appears to take on and refute your case. But, I confess that I have not studied this in a manner to form a good apologetic. I’m a pretty careful researcher, and I have discovered error all too often in books and articles. Maybe Webster has errors.

One thing to think about. John says, “30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:30-31). If believing is one requirement for salvation AND partaking in the Eucharist (as you, Pork, believe) another, then why didn’t he just say so? In fact, there are so many opportunities to say this in the New Testament, it seems odd that “belief” gets so much press and the Eucharist so little. Jesus certainly could have told this to Nicodemus in John 3, but He only talked about born again, belief and eternal life.

Belief is, we know, an essential for salvation. The Old Testament saints (see Heb 11) and certainly the thief on the cross did not partake in the Eucharist. We tell people today to believe in Jesus Christ. Here’s some proof:

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:29-31)

In Christ, OldProf

 

[Porknpie]

Pork, I appreciate your argument here. This is something I could argue in a similar way if I were Roman Catholic, but I would have to research it and know the argument much better.

Note these verses:

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

There is, I think, a very good possibility that anyone who believes (true believer) actually eats Christ’s body and drinks Christ’s blood - a parallelism based on the teaching and comparison with Moses “manna” (actually from God, but not effecacious for eternal life) and with Christ’s miracle the day before. Thus, believer = elect one = eternal life = one who eats the body and drinks the blood of Christ. This is a faily common interpretation of John 6 from reformed theology.

Here is an article with some discussion on John 6 and references to the Early Church Fathers:

the-highway.com/eucharist_Webster.html

Webster appears to take on and refute your case. But, I confess that I have not studied this in a manner to form a good apologetic. I’m a pretty careful researcher, and I have discovered error all too often in books and articles. Maybe Webster has errors.

One thing to think about. John says, “30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:30-31). If believing is one requirement for salvation AND partaking in the Eucharist (as you, Pork, believe) another, then why didn’t he just say so? In fact, there are so many opportunities to say this in the New Testament, it seems odd that “belief” gets so much press and the Eucharist so little. Jesus certainly could have told this to Nicodemus in John 3, but He only talked about born again, belief and eternal life.

Belief is, we know, an essential for salvation. The Old Testament saints (see Heb 11) and certainly the thief on the cross did not partake in the Eucharist. We tell people today to believe in Jesus Christ. Here’s some proof:

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:29-31)

In Christ, OldProf

Old Prof -

Time for another thread on the Eucharist… I started one as you can see. I suggest that you repost the above on that thread. In briefly looking at the article, the author does not answer how and why St. Iganatius and Justin Martyr speak of the Real Presence and he has Tertullian (who some argue was not an ECF) in error. The real problem though is that you have a Catholic Church who clearly believed in the Real Presence, way before the bible was written…and the Church selected the books of the bible as inspired and inerrant based on that belief.

“Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is my body,’ that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body…He did not understand how ancient was this figure of the body of Christ, who said Himself by Jeremiah: ‘I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter, and I knew not that they devised a device against me, saying, Let us cast the tree upon His bread,’ which means, of course, the cross upon His body. And thus, casting light, as He always did, upon the ancient prophecies, He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not a body of flesh. If any sort of body were presented to our view, which is not one of flesh, not being fleshly, it would not possess blood. Thus, from the evidence of the flesh, we get a proof of the body, and a proof of the flesh from the evidence of the blood.” Tertullian, Against Marcion, 40 (A.D. 212).

That all said… I have time before work to mention a few things on 1 John 5:13. Context Old Prof, context. Go to 1 John 18–26. The letter is addressed to a heretical group that broke away from the Church, that denied Christ was the Messiah. V22 saying “who is the liar but he who denies Jesus is the Christ”.

In 5:13, the author is summing up the letter saying that Christ is the messiah and that they have Christ in them, but not that they have assurance of their salvation. Two sentences later, the author makes this clear, in speaking to sins that are and are not deadly. This is the understanding of venial and mortal sins. We have to persevere as St. Paul says, and stay out of mortal sin because it is deadly. By committing mortal sin … which is grave matter, made in full knowledge and freedom, we turn from God, and reject the gift of everlasting life that he has given us.

Here’s a thread just on 1 John 5:13.

Charity,

Pork

 

[paul_c]

Pork, I appreciate your argument here. This is something I could argue in a similar way if I were Roman Catholic, but I would have to research it and know the argument much better.

The Gospel of John is interesting in that the verb “believe” and its forms are used about 100 times, and specifically in John 6 we have the evidence of Jesus miracle (vv. 1-14) and teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum (v. 59) He gives His great discourse on the Bread of Life (vv. 22-58). Note these verses:

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

There is, I think, a very good possibility that anyone who believes (true believer) actually eats Christ’s body and drinks Christ’s blood - a parallelism based on the teaching and comparison with Moses “manna” (actually from God, but not effecacious for eternal life) and with Christ’s miracle the day before. Thus, believer = elect one = eternal life = one who eats the body and drinks the blood of Christ. This is a faily common interpretation of John 6 from reformed theology.

I’m sure it is a common reformed explanation. But how do they explain the last supper discourses where Jesus lifts up the bread and says, " this is my body" and lifts up the wine and says, " this is my blood"? You see the entire scripture fits together with Tradition to form a unified whole that is the truth of salvation. And by the way, the people who heard the bread of life discourse most certainly didn’t understand it as you explained it, otherwise they never would have abandoned the Savior of the World.

One thing to think about. John says, “30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:30-31). If believing is one requirement for salvation AND partaking in the Eucharist (as you, Pork, believe) another, then why didn’t he just say so?

He did say so. In John 6, He says you need to partake of the eucharist. In John 3 He says you need to be baptized. In John 11 He says you need to have faith. In John 12, He says you must give up your life and serve Him. In John 13, He says we must love one another. But note, Jesus never provides a specific checklist on what to do to get to heaven because it is all about love based on faith. God is neither a lawyer or an accountant - He reads your heart with love, mercy and justice. He knows whether you are serving Him or yourself better than you do.

In fact, there are so many opportunities to say this in the New Testament, it seems odd that “belief” gets so much press and the Eucharist so little. Jesus certainly could have told this to Nicodemus in John 3, but He only talked about born again, belief and eternal life.

Belief is, we know, an essential for salvation. The Old Testament saints (see Heb 11) and certainly the thief on the cross did not partake in the Eucharist. We tell people today to believe in Jesus Christ. Here’s some proof:

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:29-31)

In Christ, OldProf

Faith is critical to salvation but it is not the only thing. Remember, Faith without works is dead and if you have faith enough to move mountains but do not have love, you are nothing.

 

[Philthy]

Paul also says good works follow faith:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

 

[fhansen]

The following quote from post #73 highlights a problem with a kind of “speculative theology” that emerges there. God gave man the Eucharist-a gift of the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. Not merely a subjective knowledge of God but an objective, physical, sacramental receiving of Him. And yet, with all this, the best OldProf can come up with is:

There is, I think, a very good possibility that anyone who believes (true believer) actually eats Christ’s body and drinks Christ’s blood - a parallelism based on the teaching and comparison with Moses “manna” (actually from God, but not effecacious for eternal life) and with Christ’s miracle the day before. Thus, believer = elect one = eternal life = one who eats the body and drinks the blood of Christ. This is a faily common interpretation of John 6 from reformed theology.

IOW, the best he can do on a matter which is central to the Christian faith (a matter which many, unfortunately, don’t even recognize), is to guess…guess!..about the nature of a profound communication of God to man. And he guesses wrong.

 

[OldProf]

I’m sure it is a common reformed explanation. But how do they explain the last supper discourses where Jesus lifts up the bread and says, " this is my body" and lifts up the wine and says, " this is my blood"? You see the entire scripture fits together with Tradition to form a unified whole that is the truth of salvation. And by the way, the people who heard the bread of life discourse most certainly didn’t understand it as you explained it, otherwise they never would have abandoned the Savior of the World.

He did say so. In John 6, He says you need to partake of the eucharist. In John 3 He says you need to be baptized. In John 11 He says you need to have faith. In John 12, He says you must give up your life and serve Him. In John 13, He says we must love one another. But note, Jesus never provides a specific checklist on what to do to get to heaven because it is all about love based on faith. God is neither a lawyer or an accountant - He reads your heart with love, mercy and justice. He knows whether you are serving Him or yourself better than you do.

Faith is critical to salvation but it is not the only thing. Remember, Faith without works is dead and if you have faith enough to move mountains but do not have love, you are nothing.

paul c,

The Apostle Paul says, “23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” ( 1 Cor 11:23-26)

Is it remembrance or ingest? Ingest would make it much clearer.

Should Paul have said, "23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this so you ingest me." 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, so you ingest me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

At the Church I attend, we view this as a memorial - we remember that Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior sacrificed himself, body and blood, to take the punishment for the sins of all of His sheep (the Elect ones - true believers - those that will never perish - those headed for eternal life in heaven).

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paul c, since the Eucharist and Baptism are necessary in your view of salvation, then how did King David of the Old Testament get saved and go to heaven?

And, after Vatican II, and their statements on ecumenism, why can certain devout Jews, who deny that Jesus is the Christ, and certain devout Muslims, who deny much about Jesus including the need for the Eucharist or Baptism - why can they still gain eternal life in heaven?

These are questions I have pondered. So, can you answer them? (This is open to anyone on this thread to answer.)

In Christ, OldProf

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
I’m sure it is a common reformed explanation. But how do they explain the last supper discourses where Jesus lifts up the bread and says, " this is my body" and lifts up the wine and says, " this is my blood"? You see the entire scripture fits together with Tradition to form a unified whole that is the truth of salvation. And by the way, the people who heard the bread of life discourse most certainly didn’t understand it as you explained it, otherwise they never would have abandoned the Savior of the World.

Why are you quibbling with words written 2000 years ago in another language and in another culture? Isn’t it clear enough that the bread becomes His body and that you eat it? Same with the wine becoming his blood, which you drink.

At the Church I attend, we view this as a memorial - we remember that Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior sacrificed himself, body and blood, to take the punishment for the sins of all of His sheep (the Elect ones - true believers - those that will never perish - those headed for eternal life in heaven).

Well in your church it IS a memorial since you don’t have ordained priests to consecrate the bread and wine. But that is not how it is in the Catholic Church. If you had continued to read 1 Corinthians 11 you would have found this:
27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.*
28A person should examine himself,* and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment* on himself.
30That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.
31If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment;
32but since we are judged by [the] Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
If Paul thought it was strictly a memorial, he wouldn’t have been so concerned with the faithful being in the state of grace before receiving the Eucharist. It is precisely because of the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist that we must be concerned about our worthiness to partake in the Eucharist.

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paul c, since the Eucharist and Baptism are necessary in your view of salvation, then how did King David of the Old Testament get saved and go to heaven?

First of all, I don’t think the Church has canonized David so there is no guarantee that he is in heaven so lets make the question more generic: what does the church teach about those people who had no access to baptism or the Eucharist because they died before Jesus’ paschal sacrifice? it teaches that Jesus descended to the dead to preach to those that lived in righteousness and to take those into heaven who believed in what he preached. You see, for those who are able, baptism and the eucharist are required. For those that don’t have access, God will provide his own path.