What must I do to be saved?

[Porknpie]

paul c,

The Apostle Paul says, “23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” ( 1 Cor 11:23-26)

Is it remembrance or ingest? Ingest would make it much clearer.

Hey there Prof…below from the Catholic Answers article link here.. Jesus gets more and more descriptive in his language saying that we should “chew or gnaw”. That’s a lot different than ingesting. Also remember that the crowds left him, the Jews became irate and the apostles didn’t understand…because his was speaking literally and not figuratively or symbolically.

He continues: “As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me” (John 6:57). The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.

At the Church I attend, we view this as a memorial - we remember that Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior sacrificed himself, body and blood, to take the punishment for the sins of all of His sheep (the Elect ones - true believers - those that will never perish - those headed for eternal life in heaven).

Prof, remember that everyone left him during the John 6 discourse. They took him literally as the text states. No memorial. This is a 16th century thought, not in keeping with the apostolic understanding passed on from Christ himself and believed in the Church since the death of Christ.

And, after Vatican II, and their statements on ecumenism, why can certain devout Jews, who deny that Jesus is the Christ, and certain devout Muslims, who deny much about Jesus including the need for the Eucharist or Baptism - why can they still gain eternal life in heaven?

Prof, from the Catechism below. The key word here is “may”. One must have faith AND be baptized as the words of Christ are clear that Baptism is necessary (the early church is clear in its writings too that baptism is necessary. This teaching comes from Christ to his apostles and from them to their descendants.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. **He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, **and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. H**ence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too **may** achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Keep reading the early church fathers Old Prof. They believed in sacramental baptism, infant baptism, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[paul_c]

And, after Vatican II, and their statements on ecumenism, why can certain devout Jews, who deny that Jesus is the Christ, and certain devout Muslims, who deny much about Jesus including the need for the Eucharist or Baptism - why can they still gain eternal life in heaven?

Here is what the Catholic Catechism says on the matter:
The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

Note, in 842, it does not say that devout Jews and Muslims go to heaven, it says that there are truths in their faiths that prepare them for the reception of the gospel.

it goes on to say:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.

So as you see, if they are righteous despite being ignorant of the faith, they MAY enter heaven. This does not apply to those who deny that Jesus is the Christ.

These are questions I have pondered. So, can you answer them? (This is open to anyone on this thread to answer.)

In Christ, OldProf

I think that I have. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Della]

paul c,

The Apostle Paul says, “23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” ( 1 Cor 11:23-26)

Is it remembrance or ingest? Ingest would make it much clearer.

Should Paul have said, "23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this so you ingest me." 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, so you ingest me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

At the Church I attend, we view this as a memorial - we remember that Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior sacrificed himself, body and blood, to take the punishment for the sins of all of His sheep (the Elect ones - true believers - those that will never perish - those headed for eternal life in heaven).

St. Paul was not directly quoting Our Lord, but rather explaining why receiving unworthily would lead to death. Knowing what the author intended to convey is very important, not attempting to correct what we think he should have written, yes?

Jesus said quite plainly:

Mt. 26[26] Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”
[27] And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you;
[28] for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

IOW, ingest my body and blood. The Eucharist is not a memorial in the sense of remembering the death of a loved one. It directly connects us to the living Christ. We receive the risen, glorified Christ in the Eucharist. In a way, Jesus is incarnated at the consecration so that we can receive him, just as he described in John 6 and at the institution of the Eucharist. For although the bread and wine keep their appearances, their substance is now the body and blood of Christ.

---

paul c, since the Eucharist and Baptism are necessary in your view of salvation, then how did King David of the Old Testament get saved and go to heaven?

The saints of the OT were looking forward to Christ’s redemption. I think you may be misunderstanding paul c here. Water baptism is necessary for those who have access to it, as is the Eucharist. All who are saved are saved throught Christ’s redemptive death on the cross. Redemption led to the possiblility of salvation for all men. This is why Jesus, when his body lay n the tomb, went and preached to the dead–to lead them into heaven. So, they were redeemed and saved by Christ.

And, after Vatican II, and their statements on ecumenism, why can certain devout Jews, who deny that Jesus is the Christ, and certain devout Muslims, who deny much about Jesus including the need for the Eucharist or Baptism - why can they still gain eternal life in heaven?

These are questions I have pondered. So, can you answer them? (This is open to anyone on this thread to answer.)

In Christ, OldProf

You might want to consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding this issue at: 846 - 848.

 

[paul_c]

St. Paul was not directly quoting Our Lord, but rather explaining why receiving unworthily would lead to death. Knowing what the author intended to convey is very important, not attempting to correct what we think he should have written, yes?

Jesus said quite plainly:

Mt. 26[26] Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”
[27] And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you;
[28] for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

IOW, ingest my body and blood. The Eucharist is not a memorial in the sense of remembering the death of a loved one. It directly connects us to the living Christ. We receive the risen, glorified Christ in the Eucharist. In a way, Jesus is incarnated at the consecration so that we can receive him, just as he described in John 6 and at the institution of the Eucharist. For although the bread and wine keep their appearances, their substance is now the body and blood of Christ.

---

The saints of the OT were looking forward to Christ’s redemption. I think you may be misunderstanding paul c here. Water baptism is necessary for those who have access to it, as is the Eucharist. All who are saved are saved throught Christ’s redemptive death on the cross. Redemption led to the possiblility of salvation for all men. This is why Jesus, when his body lay n the tomb, went and preached to the dead–to lead them into heaven. So, they were redeemed and saved by Christ.

You might want to consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding this issue at: 846 - 848.

If nothing else, Old Prof should be impressed with the consistency of our collective responses.

 

[Della]

If nothing else, Old Prof should be impressed with the consistency of our collective responses.

LOL! Yes. But then, the truth is the truth.

 

[asd72]

paul c,

The Apostle Paul says, “23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” ( 1 Cor 11:23-26)

Is it remembrance or ingest? Ingest would make it much clearer.

It is a memorial (which in ancient Israel is about ‘making present’ than about ‘looking back’).

If you look at the Jewish Passover liturgy, they speak in the first person, as if they themselves were in the original group that were delivered from slavery in Egypt. I guess it makes sense as a foreshadow of ‘the new Passover’.

Should Paul have said, "23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this so you ingest me." 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, so you ingest me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

You can have a memorial which involves eating. Again, look at the Jewish Passover. It does not have to be either/or.

Jesus says ‘take and eat’ ‘this is my body’ ‘do this in memory of me’. I don’t really understand your point here to be honest.

At the Church I attend, we view this as a memorial - we remember that Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior sacrificed himself, body and blood, to take the punishment for the sins of all of His sheep (the Elect ones - true believers - those that will never perish - those headed for eternal life in heaven).

Jesus died to redeem the whole world (1John 2:2). That not all are saved is not because God wished to save only ‘the elect’ even though He COULD have saved all, but because we have free will. He offers grace, but we have to accept and cooperate with His grace.

---

Paul c, since the Eucharist and Baptism are necessary in your view of salvation, then how did King David of the Old Testament get saved and go to heaven?

There is no salvation except through Christ. Jesus sacrifice was also to redeem persons from Abraham’s bosom. Heaven was closed from the time of Adam until Christ.

And, after Vatican II, and their statements on ecumenism, why can certain devout Jews, who deny that Jesus is the Christ, and certain devout Muslims, who deny much about Jesus including the need for the Eucharist or Baptism - why can they still gain eternal life in heaven?

These are questions I have pondered. So, can you answer them? (This is open to anyone on this thread to answer.)

In Christ, OldProf

We are born again in Baptism, we receive ‘supernatural life’ referred to in the Catholic Church as ‘sanctifying grace’. With new birth we enter into a new family, becoming children of God by adoption.

Those who die for the faith before they are able to be Baptised in water, still catechumens preparing for Baptism, are recognised to be saved through the mercy of God. This is called a ‘Baptism of blood’.

Non-Christians, such as those you have mentioned above, if they through no fault of their own, haven’t accepted Christ explicitly, but live good moral lives may also be saved through the mercy of God. This is called the ‘Baptism of desire’.

You can see from this that God dispenses graces through the sacraments, but is not LIMITED by them.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

NO WHERE in the whole bible does it ever say–Just have faith and believe for one billionth of a second and NOTHING else matters–don’t even pay any attention to whatever I have told you because you now have Heaven in the bag!

Who BELIEVES such malarky?

Who BELIEVES that everything that Jesus commanded us to do–like “BE YE PERFECT”
will necessarily and always necessarily happen to everyone who has faith for one billionth of a second!

The reason I keep saying one billionth of a second is to HAMMER into people’s head the fact that Once Saved Always Saved refers to faith ALONE–that means it must by definition be a DISCRETE one time only event in Time that never needs to be CONTINUOUS!

And the Once Saved Always Saved Crowd will always maintain that transformation into “Be Ye Perfect” is instantly done after death in heaven with no pain whatsoever–regardless of How the people lived their lives after that ONE BILLIONTH of a second of faith.

Faith may be FREE but the CONTINUING part is not easy and doesn’t always happen.

Human experience KNOWS that that is true!

CHEAP grace of Once Saved Always Saved reduces church to a social club.

Compared to Eating Christ’s Body and Drinking his blood-Once Saved Always Saved is SO EMPTY!

Ask yourself: Is that what Christ died for? One BILLIONTH of a second or a lifetime of transformation and carrying our crosses and abiding in Him unto death and possibly through purgatory to everlasting happiness with Him in heaven!

The devil always sells the EASY way.

The HARD way is the REAL way!

 

[OldProf]

To All, good and interesting responses. Thank-you. This IS CATHOLIC ANSWERS - I would expect CA to be consistent. But I’m going to go for clarity and comfirmation since the subject of this thread is, “What must I do to be saved?”

Instead of David, I should have picked Abraham as the Old Testament example (I do believe David is in heaven, but that is beside the point). We all agree to the following regarding Abraham:

In Heaven Now
Had faith in God that counted for righteousness (Romans 4)
Never baptized in RCC
Never partook of the Eucharist in RCC

Neither was necessary when Abraham lived/died.

Let’s look at Matthew 8:

The Faith of a Centurion - applauded by Jesus!

5 When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.

The physically alive but spiritually “dead” - as stated by Jesus!

21 Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

So, Abraham = Faith demonstrated by action = in heaven today.
Unbeliever = DEAD Spiritually (or else Jesus and Paul used a bad analogy - NOT!).

Dead people do zero work. This is total inability. For the “dead” person to do a “good” work, then we know they must have spiritual regeneration from God. It is at that point this person becomes a sheep of Jesus, and how often do the sheep of God perish? NEVER, according to Jesus.

In your above posts reponding to my post of yesterday, you WANT to demonstrate to me that certain “works” are necessary for salvation. Yet, you demonstrate, clearly (as does the Vatican II: ecumenism), when you talk about certain followers of non-Christian religions (Jews, Muslims), that there is a type of “faith” that can get people into heaven without actually believing in the true triune God.

But Jesus (John 3) told Nicodemus,“16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” And a few verses later, John the Baptist says, "31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Aren’t we motivated to evangelism knowing this?

Baptism - John 3

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jesus so easily could have said “baptism” in v. 5, but He did not. Why? That wasn’t the context - Nicodemus was speaking of physical re-birth, but it is both physical and spiritual birth that is needed. That is the context of what Jesus is saying in vv. 5-6 here.

Gotta go!

In Him, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

NO WHERE in the whole bible does it ever say–Just have faith and believe for one billionth of a second and NOTHING else matters–don’t even pay any attention to whatever I have told you because you now have Heaven in the bag!

Who BELIEVES such malarky?

Who BELIEVES that everything that Jesus commanded us to do–like “BE YE PERFECT”
will necessarily and always necessarily happen to everyone who has faith for one billionth of a second!

The reason I keep saying one billionth of a second is to HAMMER into people’s head the fact that Once Saved Always Saved refers to faith ALONE–that means it must by definition be a DISCRETE one time only event in Time that never needs to be CONTINUOUS!

And the Once Saved Always Saved Crowd will always maintain that transformation into “Be Ye Perfect” is instantly done after death in heaven with no pain whatsoever–regardless of How the people lived their lives after that ONE BILLIONTH of a second of faith.

Faith may be FREE but the CONTINUING part is not easy and doesn’t always happen.

Human experience KNOWS that that is true!

CHEAP grace of Once Saved Always Saved reduces church to a social club.

Compared to Eating Christ’s Body and Drinking his blood-Once Saved Always Saved is SO EMPTY!

Ask yourself: Is that what Christ died for? One BILLIONTH of a second or a lifetime of transformation and carrying our crosses and abiding in Him unto death and possibly through purgatory to everlasting happiness with Him in heaven!

The devil always sells the EASY way.

The HARD way is the REAL way!

Jerry-Jet, do you know what a strawman argument is? You are making an argument that I don’t know anyone uses, and then you demonstrate it is false - and I certainly agree with you, it is false!

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding. Can you tell me why this is NOT a strawman argument?

Regards, OldProf

 

[paul_c]

To All, good and interesting responses. Thank-you. This IS CATHOLIC ANSWERS - I would expect CA to be consistent. But I’m going to go for clarity and comfirmation since the subject of this thread is, “What must I do to be saved?”

Instead of David, I should have picked Abraham as the Old Testament example (I do believe David is in heaven, but that is beside the point). We all agree to the following regarding Abraham:

In Heaven Now
Had faith in God that counted for righteousness (Romans 4)
Never baptized in RCC
Never partook of the Eucharist in RCC

Neither was necessary when Abraham lived/died.

Let’s look at Matthew 8:

The Faith of a Centurion - applauded by Jesus!

5 When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.

The physically alive but spiritually “dead” - as stated by Jesus!

21 Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

So, Abraham = Faith demonstrated by action = in heaven today.
Unbeliever = DEAD Spiritually (or else Jesus and Paul used a bad analogy - NOT!).

Dead people do zero work. This is total inability. For the “dead” person to do a “good” work, then we know they must have spiritual regeneration from God. It is at that point this person becomes a sheep of Jesus, and how often do the sheep of God perish? NEVER, according to Jesus.

In your above posts reponding to my post of yesterday, you WANT to demonstrate to me that certain “works” are necessary for salvation. Yet, you demonstrate, clearly (as does the Vatican II: ecumenism), when you talk about certain followers of non-Christian religions (Jews, Muslims), that there is a type of “faith” that can get people into heaven without actually believing in the true triune God.

But Jesus (John 3) told Nicodemus,“16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” And a few verses later, John the Baptist says, "31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Aren’t we motivated to evangelism knowing this?

Baptism - John 3

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jesus so easily could have said “baptism” in v. 5, but He did not. Why? That wasn’t the context - Nicodemus was speaking of physical re-birth, but it is both physical and spiritual birth that is needed. That is the context of what Jesus is saying in vv. 5-6 here.

Gotta go!

In Him, OldProf

I don’t think you really understood what we told you. let me restate. Are you familiar with the bible quotation. " To whom more is given, more will be expected"? It goes to this point. If you are given the chance to be baptized and to partake of the Eucharist but you refuse, you will be condemned. However, if you never had that opportunity but lived a righteous life, the lack of the sacraments will not be held against you. God will judge each man according to his heart. I would recommend that since you have the opportunity to partake of the sacraments, that you do so.

 

[Della]

(shortened for text length)

We all agree to the following regarding Abraham:

In Heaven Now
Had faith in God that counted for righteousness (Romans 4)
Never baptized in RCC
Never partook of the Eucharist in RCC

Neither was necessary when Abraham lived/died.

The answers we gave for David apply to Abraham and all the OT saints.

Let’s look at Matthew 8:

The Faith of a Centurion - applauded by Jesus!

(shortened for text length)11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The physically alive but spiritually “dead” - as stated by Jesus!

21 Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

So, Abraham = Faith demonstrated by action = in heaven today.
Unbeliever = DEAD Spiritually (or else Jesus and Paul used a bad analogy - NOT!).

Dead people do zero work. This is total inability. For the “dead” person to do a “good” work, then we know they must have spiritual regeneration from God. It is at that point this person becomes a sheep of Jesus, and how often do the sheep of God perish? NEVER, according to Jesus.

Frankly, I don’t see that Jesus was addressing being physically alive but spiritually dead here. He commends the faith of a Gentile who showed his faith by his actions and condemned those who refused to believe no matter what signs Jesus did. Faith alone does not save. Jesus and James and Paul all agree on this, so why are you determined to make them say the exact opposite?

In your above posts reponding to my post of yesterday, you WANT to demonstrate to me that certain “works” are necessary for salvation. Yet, you demonstrate, clearly (as does the Vatican II: ecumenism), when you talk about certain followers of non-Christian religions (Jews, Muslims), that there is a type of “faith” that can get people into heaven without actually believing in the true triune God.

The work that is necessary for salvation can be done by anyone, not only believers, if they do them in and through the graces God gave them due to Christ’s redemptive work on the cross, and only because of that. This is how one who has never heard of the triune God may, I emphasis may, be saved. It’s much more difficulte to be saved without the sacraments and the life of the Church to aid them, but, in God’s mercy and according to his own judgment, they may be saved. Again, that’s may be saved.

(shortened for text length)

And a few verses later, John the Baptist says, "31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Aren’t we motivated to evangelism knowing this?

Yes, we evangelize because that “may be saved” is too slim a chance when they can know the truth and be assured that God loves them and can save them.

Baptism - John 3

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jesus so easily could have said “baptism” in v. 5, but He did not. Why? That wasn’t the context - Nicodemus was speaking of physical re-birth, but it is both physical and spiritual birth that is needed. That is the context of what Jesus is saying in vv. 5-6 here.

Gotta go!

In Him, OldProf

Baptisms of various kinds were a staple of Jewish life at the time Jesus talked to Nicodemus. He was trying to get him to see that the baptism that Jesus instituted went beyond mere ritual cleansing but truly endows us with God’s saving grace, as well as to get him to think beyond merely physical terms. Jesus was also speaking, not to an unbeliever, but to a believer in the one, true God. So, he wasn’t saying that mere unbelief is condemnation, but refusal to believe when one is presented with the truth brings condemnation. This refusal to believe was the very thing Jesus railed against the Pharisees and Sadducees for doing. God does not hold us accountable for what we could not know, but if we do know we are accountable.

 

[Porknpie]

Old Prof -

Time for another thread on the Eucharist… I started one as you can see. I suggest that you repost the above on that thread. In briefly looking at the article, the author does not answer how and why St. Iganatius and Justin Martyr speak of the Real Presence and he has Tertullian (who some argue was not an ECF) in error. The real problem though is that you have a Catholic Church who clearly believed in the Real Presence, way before the bible was written…and the Church selected the books of the bible as inspired and inerrant based on that belief.

“Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is my body,’ that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body…He did not understand how ancient was this figure of the body of Christ, who said Himself by Jeremiah: ‘I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter, and I knew not that they devised a device against me, saying, Let us cast the tree upon His bread,’ which means, of course, the cross upon His body. And thus, casting light, as He always did, upon the ancient prophecies, He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not a body of flesh. If any sort of body were presented to our view, which is not one of flesh, not being fleshly, it would not possess blood. Thus, from the evidence of the flesh, we get a proof of the body, and a proof of the flesh from the evidence of the blood.” Tertullian, Against Marcion, 40 (A.D. 212).

That all said… I have time before work to mention a few things on 1 John 5:13. Context Old Prof, context. Go to 1 John 18–26. The letter is addressed to a heretical group that broke away from the Church, that denied Christ was the Messiah. V22 saying “who is the liar but he who denies Jesus is the Christ”.

In 5:13, the author is summing up the letter saying that Christ is the messiah and that they have Christ in them, but not that they have assurance of their salvation. Two sentences later, the author makes this clear, in speaking to sins that are and are not deadly. This is the understanding of venial and mortal sins. We have to persevere as St. Paul says, and stay out of mortal sin because it is deadly. By committing mortal sin … which is grave matter, made in full knowledge and freedom, we turn from God, and reject the gift of everlasting life that he has given us.

Here’s a thread just on 1 John 5:13.

Charity,

Pork

OldProf -

Do you have an answer for the early Church believing the in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? St Ignatius in 110ad…a follower of St. John the Apostle? Justin Martyr in the early to mid 2nd century? You’ll have to reflect on how the apostles, where ever they went, taught the Real Presence. We can see this in the writings of the Church.

In the Old Testament, God gave man the Manna from heaven. True heavenly food…but man died. The manna foreshadowed the Eucharist, the Bread Of Life where man in receiving it can have eternal life. Old testament pre-figurements are never greater than their new testament fulfillment’s.

It’s all about attaining salvation … helping us to persevere and overcome sin … so that we can enter heaven. The sacraments are instituted by Christ to give us added grace needed for our journey.

Charity, Pork

 

[OldProf]

OldProf -

Do you have an answer for the early Church believing the in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? St Ignatius in 110ad…a follower of St. John the Apostle? Justin Martyr in the early to mid 2nd century? You’ll have to reflect on how the apostles, where ever they went, taught the Real Presence. We can see this in the writings of the Church.

In the Old Testament, God gave man the Manna from heaven. True heavenly food…but man died. The manna foreshadowed the Eucharist, the Bread Of Life where man in receiving it can have eternal life. Old testament pre-figurements are never greater than their new testament fulfillment’s.

It’s all about attaining salvation … helping us to persevere and overcome sin … so that we can enter heaven. The sacraments are instituted by Christ to give us added grace needed for our journey.

Charity, Pork

No, Pork, I do not. I’m very interested in this, however, and YOU will be my “go to guy” on the research I will do. My personal belief at this time is that faith - that is, SAVING FAITH that has the evidence (not requirement) of good works - is all that is required for one to become a sheep of Jesus. This would fit the evidence of Old Testament saints, the Thief on the Cross, and what appears to be overwhelming evidence within the Bible. (Believe, Believe, Believe - Eternal Life, Eternal Life, Eternal Life, Everlasting Life. Unmistakable references to belief.)

I simply agree with Paul and Silas: (Acts 16)

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

That is pretty clear and pretty simple.

In Him, OldProf

 

[paul_c]

No, Pork, I do not. I’m very interested in this, however, and YOU will be my “go to guy” on the research I will do. My personal belief at this time is that faith - that is, SAVING FAITH that has the evidence (not requirement) of good works - is all that is required for one to become a sheep of Jesus. This would fit the evidence of Old Testament saints, the Thief on the Cross, and what appears to be overwhelming evidence within the Bible. (Believe, Believe, Believe - Eternal Life, Eternal Life, Eternal Life, Everlasting Life. Unmistakable references to belief.)

I simply agree with Paul and Silas: (Acts 16)

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

That is pretty clear and pretty simple.

In Him, OldProf

You need to see the whole picture. When Paul was asked, what did he need to be saved, he said, " believe in the Lord Jesus." But then what did he do? Paul baptized him, which we know from John 3 is required to be born again. And then what happened? He began to live the Christian life, showing love to Paul and Barnabas. But notice, you equate a one time statement of faith with going to heaven. This is in error. We don’t know whether the Jailer actually went to heaven. That would depend on his choices and actions after he was baptized.

And again, why do you continue to ignore all the other requirements for attaining heaven other than faith. I’ve personally pointed them out to you several times on this and other threads and yet you fail to acknowledge them

 

[Porknpie]

No, Pork, I do not. I’m very interested in this, however, and YOU will be my “go to guy” on the research I will do. My personal belief at this time is that faith - that is, SAVING FAITH that has the evidence (not requirement) of good works - is all that is required for one to become a sheep of Jesus. This would fit the evidence of Old Testament saints, the Thief on the Cross, and what appears to be overwhelming evidence within the Bible. (Believe, Believe, Believe - Eternal Life, Eternal Life, Eternal Life, Everlasting Life. Unmistakable references to belief.)

I simply agree with Paul and Silas: (Acts 16)

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

That is pretty clear and pretty simple.

In Him, OldProf

OldProf -

Have to ask what does the word “believe” means as the author wrote the text. Believing is to follow. We have to “follow”. In following, scripture directly states many other things one must do to be saved (as has been pointed out). Jesus when asked what one must do, said to keep the commandments …

16 Then someone came to him and said, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Keeping the commandments involves works. Faith and works go together. We are saved by grace, through faith, working in love. This is evident in James 2:24, the only time the words “faith alone” are used in all of scripture.

24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Interesting that those earliest Christians thought the same thing…this is the Apostolic faith that was handed down from Christ, to the apostles and to their successors.

“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, **being justified by our works, and not our words." **Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30 (A.D. 98).

Faith alone OldProf is a man made doctrine, unheard of until the 16th century. You are trying to proof text but in doing so, can not reconcile the rest of scripture that is contradictory…and then there is the issue of the early church fathers who are consistent with the teaching of the OHCAC…for 2,000 years.

Charity,

Pork

 

[Eruvande]

Forgive me for interrupting but I was always taught that the reason we have assurance is not because we believe, but because of the faithfulness of the One who will bring us to salvation. He will help us to persevere.

 

[fhansen]

Forgive me for interrupting but I was always taught that the reason we have assurance is not because we believe, but because of the faithfulness of the One who will bring us to salvation. He will help us to persevere.

It’s not either/or, it’s both/and, a synergistic effort. We love Him because He first loved us, but we’re not forced to love Him, or to continue in that vein. We can be rocky ground where the seed begins to take root but dies later on, or a branch that was grafted in and later cut off. IOW, there’s no guarantee that we’ll persevere. And, even if the “elect” do have that guarantee, this becomes a rather moot point because we can’t know with 100% certainty who the elect are; this is known by God alone.

 

[Porknpie]

Forgive me for interrupting but I was always taught that the reason we have assurance is not because we believe, but because of the faithfulness of the One who will bring us to salvation. He will help us to persevere.

Eruvande -

St. Paul says that he has “hope”, not assurance in his salvation… he was saved, is being saved and has hope (future) for his salvation, working it out “in fear and trembling”. This is the apostolic faith that has been handed down through the centuries, certainly part of the “one faith”, …until the 1600’s or so.

The Lord is certainly faithful, but we through our free will can turn from and reject the gift everlasting life that he has given us. In doing so, we can be “cut off” from him.

You are right on with “he will help us persevere”. Jesus himself, instituted the 7 sacraments, for us to receive added grace to do just that, including receiving his resurrected body and blood in the Eucharist (as the Church has believed in, literally, not figuratively for 2,000 years). Everywhere the apostles went, they taught the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Everywhere.

Pork

 

[jochoa]

It’s the question they asked Peter on Pentecost and it still bothers me today, especially now I’m looking seriously at Catholicism. Can I have assurance of salvation or do I have to live with uncertainty?

Here is a take on the Greatest Commandments, which may help show the connection in assuring one’s self of salvation into God’s Heavenly Kingdom:

If I have the body and blood of God…
If I would have created the same way God created…
If I think the same thoughts God thinks…
If I do the same things God does…
while I know I am not God…
THEN I know I am saved because I will be doing everything that God commands of me:
Loving God with all my heart (center of my body) and with all my soul (center of the spirit/remembrance of me) and with all my mind (center of thoughts) and with all my strength (center of my actions).

To know if you have the body and blood of God, ask yourself: Do I eat the Body and drink the Blood of Jesus?
To know if you would have created the same way God created, ask two questions: If I were the Creator of Everything, would I have created an unlimited number of True Friends, and what must have happened for me to create an unlimited number of True Friends? God’s solution is as follows: God has to be the persons of the Nicene Creed. The Holy Bible is the Story of Creating, Guiding, and Becoming a True Friend of God.
To know if you have the same thoughts of God, consider: Do I think about being more patient and kind for the experience of greater peace and happiness?
To know if you do the same things God does, consider: Are you becoming more patient and kind for the pinnacle experience of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace?

Hope this helps!

 

[fred_conty]

It’s the question they asked Peter on Pentecost and it still bothers me today, especially now I’m looking seriously at Catholicism. Can I have assurance of salvation or do I have to live with uncertainty?

It sounds to me that what you are searching for is the real author of truth wherever that may be found.

I think it would be important for you to find the source of truth that can be relied on all the time. And since all churches claim this truth, then its important to select the one with the most credentials. This is more fundamental and the first step to finding an answer to your question of what the requirements are to be saved. THE church has to be selected for the answers. Otherwise, just any church selected would still give you uncertainty.

After a church is selected that you have investigated, then the conditions of salvation can be relied on.

So to start off on the right foot, look at the early writtings of the christians as to what they considered to be the right church, that is, what church today looks like the church in early christianity. Read history and have a “look see” for yourself.

Once this becomes clear, then you are on your way to knowing securily and discovering what the truth is, and what you need to do.

Just a thought.​

“Let me be your servant, let me walk your way. Guide me on your path, give night the light of day.” (hymn)