What must one do to be saved?

[MariaG]

The church/body of Christ is made up of all the redeemed since Pentecost.1 Pet 1:18"…knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ."Redemption is through sacrificial blood, His precious blood. A historical, finished, sacrificial work in which no man can participate. When sinners, by faith, turn to Christ they are purchased (redeemed) forever out of the slave market of sin, never to be returned (Gr. agorazo, ekagorazo, lutroo). It is the redeemed (purchased ones) who make up the church/body of Christ. They did not, nor cannot redeem themselves but are, in fact, redeemed.

You misunderstand what we mean when we say we must participate in the sacrifice. Maybe the below, with the pertinent scriptures highlighted will help? Our “participation” is taking up our cross and following Him because faith demands us to do so, not because His sacrifice is in anyway incomplete.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Our participation in Christ’s sacrifice
618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”,454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457
Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458
452 1 Tim 2:5.
453 GS 22 § 5; cf. § 2.
454 Mt 16:24.
455 1 Pet 2:21.
456 Cf Mk 10:39; Jn 21:18-19; Col 1:24.
457 Cf. Lk 2:35.

I have yet to find in the N.T. the Catholic teaching that justification is initially gifted by God and in any way finished through us. Why? Because that would be a contradiction of terms.The fruit of what?In the Greek the equivalent to grace is “favor,” not perseverance.Yes. If something is done for you “by grace” it is done according to “favor.” There is no recompense expected. It is unmerited and undeserved. So yes, salvation is perfectly “gifted to the sinner at the time of personal faith in Christ.”

Again, you misunderstand the Catholic teaching. We only “participate” in Christ’s sacrifice in the manner that scripture tells us to take up our cross and follow Him in faith, through grace.

“For by GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) you are saved, through faith…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works (merit)”

Yes. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church

It is not gifted if it must wait upon perseverance. Salvation is, however, a perfect gift based on a perfect, sacrificial work on our behalf. Batteries are included (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) and no assembly (works) is ever required to complete it. It’s by GRACE

You misunderstand. The gift does not “wait” for perseverance. It is given immediately. And batteries are included We agree. What we disagree on is whether or not man’s free will can reject that gift at anytime or let the batteries run out through willful neglect.

Our disagreement is not on how one recieves the gift, but only whether or not one always has the free will to return it.

 

[MariaG]

We’re not saved by our love, but His: 1 John 4:10 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins."Biblically there’s no such thing as “initial” salvation, any more than there is “initial” justification. It’s past tense because it’s a completed, historically finished event. In Christ I am SAVED. The Catholic doctrine that one is saved, being saved, and will be saved is unbiblical. It’s unique to Catholicism and stems from unbelief that God has the power to save immediately and forever, through Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross, those who turn to Christ by faith (Rom. 1:16-17). Yet that is the Apostolic message taken to the world.The saved are exhorted to love the brethren (and even our enemies), for Christ’s sake. But salvation itself is gifted “through faith” (in Christ), not the result of one’s persevering love to the end.Can a man be unborn?

Respectfully, that is just not true. It is not in fact unique to Catholicism that one is saved, being saved and will be saved. It is unique to Baptist/followers of Calvinistic doctrine that one is OSAS.

EVERY single Christian Church I attended, Nazarene, Assembly of God, Evangelical, Church of Christ, Lutheran and Catholic all believe that one can lose their salvation.

And I did in fact post scripture that shows the past, present and future states of salvation.

Well then G., either you believe in eternal security (OSAS) or you must believe that the grace of God can fail. Which is it?

Please don’t respond with “we can fail,” because you claim that the ability to persevere is “gifted” by God’s grace. If, as you claim, “it starts, continues and ends with the grace of God,” then either one is eternally secure because of that continuous, divine gift, or it’s the grace of God fails men.

One is not eternally secure because one always has free will. No amount of Grace overrides the freewill to reject Christ.

Here again, G., either you’re preaching eternal security (OSAS) or you’re saying there’ll be H.S. regenerated persons in hell.

No, but there will be prodigal sons who never come home. We become children of God, but just like the prodigal son, we can leave our homes and squander our inheritance.

God Bless,

Maria

 

[NotWorthy]

No, but there will be prodigal sons who never come home. We become children of God, but just like the prodigal son, we can leave our homes and squander our inheritance.

Amen!!! If the Prodigal Son was never lost from the Kingdom, then why are all the angels in heaven celebrating his return.

Simply look at the context of the other two parables that Jesus tells at this same dinner party. The woman loses a coin. The sheep is lost. There is celebration only after their return. This is the same with the Prodigal Son who was lost. Just look at the words of the Father.

*Then let us celebrate with a feast, because this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found. *

The boy had life. The boy died. The boy came to life again.

 

[guanophore]

Nothing wrong with that.Not even suicide can cause a person to be unborn.

True, but all who are born can die. Also, if one’s name cannot be “blotted out” of the book of life, then why does Jesus say that?

Rev 3:4-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Clearly there is an implication that those who don’t conquer will have their names blotted out.

Salvation through “repenting for sins” is not Biblical. Repentance is a change of mind, a change of direction. Turning from unbelief to belief. It’s related to turning to Christ by faith.

Just semantics, then, Apo. One cannot turn to belief without repentance. True, repenting of sins is not the ONLY thing related to salvation, but it is certainly part of it. Do you imagine some other definition of “repenting of sin” besides turning from unbelief to belief? To you imagine that “repenting of sins” is related to something OTHER than turning to Christ by faith?

I have had another question rattling around in my head to ask you.

"And Zacchae’us stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one of anything, I restore it fourfold.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save the lost.” Luke 19:7-10

How was Zacchaeus saved? Was it not by grace, through faith? He became a “son of Abraham”. How is this evident? There is no profession of faith. He demonstrated his faith by repentance of sin. He pledged to make reparation for the wrongs he had done. By this it was evident that he had a saving faith is it not? Repentance from sins must accompany saving faith.

to The One who dealt with ALL our sins, once for all, through the sacrifice of Himself.John 20:27 “Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.””

Jesus made a once for all sacrifice for us, but the benefits of His sacrifice are not applied to “all”. They are only entered into by grace, through faith. To those who do not enter, the grace will not apply. People have the choice to reject the gift.

**Rev 21:8** "But for the cowardly and **unbelieving** and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part {will be} in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, **which is the second death**."

This passage implies that persons with saving faith will abandon (repent from) a sinful life.

 

[guanophore]

Christ is the One who had victory over sin. How is it you who claim to believe in Christ fail to believe what He accomplished, sacrificially, on our behalf? Jesus said:John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins."It’s the unbeliever who dies in his sins, not the believer. No such risk exists for the one who has turned from unbelief (repented) and has truly believed in Christ.

This is an excellent example of Refomed Theology. Apostolic Teaching is that we are to live a life worthy of the calling to which we have been called. However, we have concupiscence (tendency toward sin) and although we have been freed from slavery, we still fall into sin. When we do, we have an Advocate with Jesus Christ, the Righteous. Those who persist unrepentant from sins reject the grace of Christ, and make themselves children of wrath.

God does not deal with believers as "sinners" but as "*sons*."

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.[/indent]This is answered by knowing who the overcomers are:

1 John 5:4-5 "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?I did “repent” when I turned from unbelief to belief in Christ. And now I am no longer “in sin” but “in Christ,” clothed in His righteousness. I am in the resurrected, living Christ who 2000 years ago took upon Himself ALL my sins and died in my stead. There He died to (my) sins, once for all, and was raised to new life (Rom. 6:10), and me with Him.
​

Therefore, no sins you commit will prevent your salvation? It is not possible for you to “crucify the Son of God afresh”?

But sin is not a salvation deal-breaker.  By divine identity I am no longer a sinner, but a saint (even a son).  My sins (past, present and future) were eternally dealt with by God's sin-bearer.

How is it you can’t understand these things? Or is it you refuse to believe them?

I understand them, for the most part. There are still some aspects of Reformed Theology that confuse me, such as the questions I posted here. I don’t refuse to “believe” them, I acknowledge that these are beliefs. I just don’t see that they are consistent with the Apostolic Faith that has been handed down to us. The Apostolc Faith teaches that apostacy is possible, and that Hebrews applies to the Christian, not just the Jew.

"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; Heb 12:14-15

Apostolic Teaching is that we need to “strive” to “work out” our salvation, and that, without holiness we will not see the lord. It is possible to fail to obtain the grace of God.​

 

[apophasis]

MariaG:

The difference is the following. You believe it is permanent from your first moment, until you die.

Yes, because God saves from the moment of belief. It is God Himself who does the saving - all of it, by the power of His sovereign grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

We believe that there is more to the story and believe scripture reflects what we believe to be the apostolic teachings on this.

Based on Rome’s “gospel,” no one can know he’s saved because, ultimately, salvation is based on one’s own performance - not Christ’s. That’s the difference, Maria

Scripture talks about salvation being a past event.

Eph 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
2Tim 1;9 - He saved us, called us according to his grace

Actually this IS salvation. For the believer it is a past event because it is God Himself who saved him at the time of belief.

But scripture also talks of salvation as being a current event, a process that has yet to be achieved.

Phil 2;12 - work out your salvation with fear and trembling
1Pet 1:9 - as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation

Phil. 2:12 does not say to work FOR our salvation with fear and trembling. But the context is to work “outward” your salvation unto maturity. As for 1 Pet. 1:9, the NASB states it best: “obtaining as the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.” The “outcome” is immediate, not future.

And scripture further tells us that salvation has a future aspect to it.
Rom 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
Cor 3:15 - he shall be saved, but only as through fire

In Rom. 5:9 Paul is stating that all who have been justified “by His blood,” need not fear the wrath of God which is yet to come upon this earth. Verse 10 states that we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, and much more having been reconciled (a past, competed reality) we shall be saved by His life. The word “saved” here must be understood in the context in which it is used. It’s not used here in its redemptive sense. For instance, in Rom. 5:9 “saved” is tantamount to being “spared” from the wrath of God which is yet to come upon this earth. It’s not referring to redemption. It is those who are already “justified by/in His blood” and “reconciled” that will be spared from God’s wrath.

The biggest lie that Satan has been able to succeed in since the Garden of Eden are the lies about the Catholic Church.

Actually, the biggest lie that Satan has succeeded in is the introduction of another “gospel.” A “gospel” based on works rather than grace. We actually see it introduced quite early into the church, deceiving those at Galatia. Paul immediately responded with:Gal. 1:6-9 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel (good news) of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"This “other gospel” is very subtle, Maria. It speaks of Christ and uses words like faith and grace, but ultimately it’s about self and works. What YOU must do in order to be saved. This other “gospel” takes on as many forms with as many rules to achieve salvation as there are those who preach it. But it’s impotent to save because it circumvents the cross, avoids grace and demands meritorious works for salvation. In other words, at the heart of it is the disobedience of unbelief.But the gospel of God’s reigning grace says:Heb 4:10 "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through {following} the same example of disobedience…

 

[apophasis]

MariaG:

The blood of Christ was poured out and applied to all who needed it.

Through His blood sacrifice Jesus, as the Lamb of God, took away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29) Hence, ALL humanity (the world) needed it. But it is not applied until personal belief in Him (“for by grace you have been saved through faith”).

It is a timeless sacrifice.

It is a substitutionary sacrifice executed in this world’s history. It’s an historical event which had a beginning and an end. The Son entered, by birth, into our time and space in order to accomplish redemption, once for all. The effects of His sacrificial death are eternal, but the sacrifice itself was finite. The work He accomplished through it was “finished.” And the one who believes enters into that finished work.

We each MUST choose to accept or reject the gift of His sacrifice and His redeeming blood is applied to us individually.

Not true! The jailer at Phillipi asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved.” The Apostolic response was, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.” He was not told to accept or reject any gift. He was told he must BELIEVE, and upon belief he was then gifted salvation. Nowhere in Scripture is salvation taught to be contingent upon one’s continuous will to either accept or reject “the gift.” But upon (freewill) belief one is gifted salvation (Eph. 2:8-9), sanctification (Rom. 3:24), eternal life (Rom. 6:23), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Corporately, they’re “the gift” of salvation and are not given and kept according to our will but are the believer’s gifts according to God’s good pleasure toward us at the time of true faith in His beloved Son.

The proposition for salvation, and all it entails, giftwise, is not to accept or reject “the gift,” but to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus.

However, Paul does point out that one can actually believe in vain.1 Cor. 15:1-2 "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.In other words, a false faith in a false gospel (not holding fast to Paul’s word).

But the grace of God never overrides our free will. We always have the choice to reject the gift, even after our initial salvation.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith…” For God to “un-save” whom He Himself saved through faith in Christ, He would have to : (1) reverse his redemption, 2) reverse his justification, (3) reverse the new birth, i.e., no longer “in Christ” but again “in Adam,” consequently being again spiritually dead and in trespasses and sins," (4) reverse his regeneration and remove the Spirit from him, (5) reverse his position of being “under grace” to be once again “under sin,” (6) placing him back into a state of spiritual darkness, (7) back into an unforgiven state and (8) again a child of wrath and destined for the Lake of Fire.

A favorite theologian of mine once wrote that any person who believes he can lose his salvation has never really given any thought to what salvation is.

I believe G. replied to this most specifically. Perseverence is a gift of the Holy Spirit. We cannot persevere without the gift of grace from God. We do not think we persevere with our own will, the will to persevere comes from the grace of God. But again, we can accept that grace or reject it and fall.

Then, ultimately, if you fall, it is God who failed. And at the end of the day your salvation or demise depends not on God’s power to save by grace, but YOU.

However, none of this describes the God of our salvation (as revealed in Scripture), or the salvation gifted by God at the time of faith.

 

[apophasis]

MariaG:

Again, you misunderstand the Catholic teaching. We only “participate” in Christ’s sacrifice in the manner that scripture tells us to take up our cross and follow Him in faith, through grace.

Nowhere in Matt. 16:24, Mk. 8:34 or Lk. 9:23 does Jesus say anything about participating in His sacrifice or even His redemptive work on the cross. Christ’s words there are not a description of the way of salvation (or negatively how to lose it), but rather the philosophy of life for a true disciple of His. A disciple of Christ in no way participates in His redemptive work on their behalf. He does, however, rejoice in it and shares the “good news” with others. And possibly he could even be called to give his life for the sake of that “gospel” (good news).

Our disagreement is not on how one recieves the gift,

To the contrary, it is the fundamental difference between us.

but only whether or not one always has the free will to return it.

Return “IT?” How does one “return” eternal life (an oxymoron)? How does one “return” justification? How does one “return” the Holy Spirit? How does one even “return” salvation?
Salvation isn’t a fancy wrapped object. It’s forgiveness of sins, justification, reconciliation, sanctification, new life in Christ. These aren’t yours to take and give back at whim. They’re the possession of saints (by grace), not sinners.

No, but there will be prodigal sons who never come home. We become children of God, but just like the prodigal son, we can leave our homes and squander our inheritance.

The inheritance of the prodigal son was not “eternal.” Whereas the believer’s is. And as for the prodigal son, throughout all his rebellion he never lost his sonship.Gal 3:26 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."The parable is not about salvation. But the moral of the story is found in the attitude of the other son. He despised his father for being so gracious to his brother. Pure, unadulterated GRACE is always repugnant to the religious legalist.

The difference between the believer and the prodigal son is that the believer’s inheritance is reserved in heaven where it can’t be "squandered.“1 Pet 1:3-5 " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to {obtain} an inheritance {which is} imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

Clearly there is an implication that those who don’t conquer will have their names blotted out.

1 John 5:4-5 "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?One who is born of God is never blotted out.

Just semantics, then, Apo. One cannot turn to belief without repentance.

Turning from unbelief to belief IS repentance.

True, repenting of sins is not the ONLY thing related to salvation, but it is certainly part of it.

Luke 24:47 says “repentance for forgiveness of sins,” but nowhere do I find the phrase “repentance of sins.” The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world concerning sin, righteousness and judgment, and the one convicted is to turn (repent) from unbelief to belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Do you imagine some other definition of “repenting of sin” besides turning from unbelief to belief? To you imagine that “repenting of sins” is related to something OTHER than turning to Christ by faith?

The phrase “repenting of sins” is not Biblical. It’s man-made. It’s a religious ritual of no effect in respect to getting saved. One is saved “by grace through FAITH.”

How was Zacchaeus saved? Was it not by grace, through faith?

Yes.

He became a “son of Abraham”.

He was by birth a Jew, therefore a physical son of Abraham. But now through faith in Messiah he became a spiritual son of Abraham as wellGal 3:6 “Even so Abraham BELIEVED God, and it (his faith) was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.”

How is this evident? There is no profession of faith. He demonstrated his faith by repentance of sin. He pledged to make reparation for the wrongs he had done. By this it was evident that he had a saving faith is it not? Repentance from sins must accompany saving faith.

You ask a question by putting your own spin on the passage. In verse 10 Jesus says, “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” Jesus saves. Zaccheaeus’ salvation was because of his faith (which Jesus, who knows the heart, recognized). And like his father Abraham, it was his FAITH through which God reckoned him righteous - it had nothing to do with his willingness to make reparations. His willingness was a product of his salvation - not the cause of it.

“Repentance of sins” is not found in that passage, btw.

Jesus made a once for all sacrifice for us, but the benefits of His sacrifice are not applied to “all”.

That’s right, because not all believe - “by grace you are saved through FAITH.”

They are only entered into by grace, through faith.

Exactly! Precisely!

To those who do not enter, the grace will not apply. People have the choice to reject the gift.

No, people have a choice to BELIEVE in Christ or not. Upon belief in Him they are gifted salvation (and all it entails).

This passage implies that persons with saving faith will abandon (repent from) a sinful life.

But it’s their faith through which God Himself justifies and saves them. Their now turning away from sin is a fruit of salvation (the fruit of spiritual regeneration) - not the means of it.

 

[guanophore]

Based on Rome’s “gospel,” no one can know he’s saved because, ultimately, salvation is based on one’s own performance - not Christ’s.

This is just an erroneous understanding of the Gospel of Christ. It is based on eliminating or marginalizing part of the Apostolic Teaching about salvation. For the Catholic (Roman and otherwise), salvation is by grace, through faith. There is nothing that any person can do to “merit” or “earn” salvation. However, we do have a role to play:

“Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 **so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom **of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” 2 Peter 1:10-11

It is the job of the individual to work together with grace, confirming one’s call. If we do not do this, we can fall from grace. however, we cannot be zealous in confirming our call without grace.

 For the believer it is a past event because it is God Himself who saved him at the time of belief.Phil. 2:12 does not say to work FOR our salvation with fear and trembling.  But the context is to work "outward" your salvation unto maturity.  As for 1 Pet. 1:9, the NASB states it best: "*obtaining as the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls*."

This is why the Apostolic conception of salvation is past, present, and future.

The “outcome” is immediate, not future.

While there are aspects that are immediate “you were washed, you were cleansed, etc” there are aspects that are occurring in the present, and some that will not occur until “that Day”. These aspects of future salvation are not separated from the inital justification that happens in baptism. As you can see in the quote of Peter above, there is an element of eternal life into which we have not yet entered.

The word "*saved*" here must be understood in the context in which it is used. It's not used here in its redemptive sense.  For instance, in Rom. 5:9 "saved" is tantamount to being "spared" from the wrath of God which is yet to come upon this earth.  It's not referring to redemption.

Interesting. I would say that the two cannot be separated.

It is those who are already "justified by/in His blood" and "reconciled" that will be spared from God's wrath.

Yes, which is why it is so crucial not to profane the blood of the covenant, by which we are reconciled:

“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Heb 10:26-31

 

[apophasis]

Guanophore:

This is an excellent example of Refomed Theology. Apostolic Teaching is that we are to live a life worthy of the calling to which we have been called.

Yes.Eph 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,"The “therefore” in that passage refers back to what Paul wrote in the first three chapters - read them.

However, we have concupiscence (tendency toward sin) and although we have been freed from slavery, we still fall into sin.

This is why you need to read the first three chapters of Ephesians, G.:Eph 1:7-8 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us.

When we do, we have an Advocate with Jesus Christ, the Righteous.

Yes, 1 Jn. 2:1. Sins are not a salvation deal-breaker for the redeemed. Jesus goes before the Father and testifies that we belong to Him, bought with the price of His blood. The accuser (Satan) has no power to condemn the Redeemed before the Father in heaven (Rev. 12:10).

Those who persist unrepentant from sins reject the grace of Christ, and make themselves children of wrath.

No! Those who refuse to BELIEVE remain, by nature, children of wrath (Eph. 2:1-7) You really do need to read the first three chapters of Ephesian.

Guanophore, in the Scriptures we find two principles: law and grace. They are contrasted and diametrically opposed. Under the principle of law God demands righteousness from men, under the principle of grace He GIVES righteousness to men. Law is connected to works, grace to faith. Under the principle of law blessings accompany obedience, but under grace blessings are bestowed as a free gift.

There was grace in the O.T., witnessed by the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law. But the fullness of grace began with the ministry of Christ involving His substitutionary, sacrificial death, burial and bodily resurrection. Under the former dispensation it was shown that law was powerless to secure righteousness and life for Adam’s sinful race. Therefore righteousness had to come from a completely different source. God Himself! Unconditionally, through faith, on the righteous grounds of Christ’s sacrificial work.Rom 3:26-28 "…for the demonstration, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.** Where then is boasting? It is shut out!. By what law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of (the principle of) law.You see, G., the vast difference between the former age (of law) and the present age (of grace) is not a matter of no grace and some grace, but that GRACE now REIGNS (as king,Rom 5:19-21 "For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. But law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."Because the only Being who has the right to judge sinners (Jn. 5:22) is now seated upon the “throne of grace” (Heb. 4:14-16), not imputing unto the world its trespasses (2 Cor. 5:19), but instead imputing HIS righteousness to all who believe in Him (2 Cor. 5:21).

You’re stuck in the former age of law and works, G. This side of the cross it’s all faith and grace.2 Cor 5:17-18 “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ…”

Rom. 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,You need to update your “gospel,” G. It’s obsolete. It’s backward motion. It has no power to save.

Therefore, no sins you commit will prevent your salvation?

Correct. I’m already saved and have received the forgiveness of ALL my sins (past, present, future). Your problem is that you don’t believe Acts 10:43; 13:38; 26:18; 16:30-31; Col. 1:14.

It is not possible for you to “crucify the Son of God afresh”?

Nope. I’ve been crucified with Him, co-buried and co-resurrected, seated with Him in the heavenly (Eph. 2:4-7; Col. 3:1-4).**

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I’m already saved and have received the forgiveness of ALL my sins (past, present, future).

So no Sin can prevent your salvation?! So you are not humanly capable of blaspheming the Holy Spirit in your life on earth? It’s physical impossible, an infallable fact. Interesting!

Really, your physical incapable of forming words to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, even if a person such as yourself fell into a metally deficient state of mind at some point in life, still not capable? Interesting!

 

[anthony022071]

The proposition for salvation, and all it entails, giftwise, is not to accept or reject “the gift,” but to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus.

That does not make sense. If what we are offered is a gift,then we can either accept or reject it. Obedience is acceptance of the gift,but sin is rejection. Our own choice is always involved,because we always have our free will.

The collorary to faith is righteousness.

< Gal. 3,11: Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law; for “He who through faith is righteous shall live.” >

To believe puts the burden of proof upon a person.

< James 2,14-17:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. >

If a man’s faith is dead,then it cannot lead to eternal life.

A favorite theologian of mine once wrote that any person who believes he can lose his salvation has never really given any thought to what salvation is.

That is a foolish thing for a theologian to say.
Has he never given thought to this?

< Romans 11,19-22:
Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. >

Then, ultimately, if you fall, it is God who failed. And at the end of the day your salvation or demise depends not on God’s power to save by grace, but YOU.

That is foolish also. Our failure to be saved is no more God’s failure than was Adam’s loss of Paradise. The committing of sin which leads to death is a choice,and so is the keeping of the commandments,which leads to eternal life. Unless we remain in God’s kindness by keeping the commandments,we may be cut off from salvation.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, 1 Jn. 2:1. Sins are not a salvation deal-breaker for the redeemed.

those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear." 1 Tim 5:20

" But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it." James 2:8-10

I realize that Reformed Soteriology is built primarily on the letters of Paul. But the Catholic Church builds Soteriology on ALL of the Scripture, both OT and New.

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” 1 John 1:8

Indeed, sin is a “deal breaker”. we must continually come to Him, who is the Source of cleansing to be freed.

Jesus goes before the Father and testifies that we belong to Him, bought with the price of His blood. The accuser (Satan) has no power to condemn the Redeemed before the Father in heaven

In this I agree with you 100%. However, those who have been bought by the Blood do not always behave as the “blood bought”. Those that were purchased, and refuse to get into the take home bag, will not get to the destination!

in the Scriptures we find two principles: law and grace.  They are contrasted and diametrically opposed.  Under the principle of law God demands righteousness from men, under the principle of grace He GIVES righteousness to men.  Law is connected to works, grace to faith.  Under the principle of law blessings accompany obedience, but under grace blessings are bestowed as a free gift.

The two are not as diametrically opposed as you may presume. Jesus did not come to end the law, but to “fullfill” it. He demonstated how, by grace, we can walk in the commandments of God. This is how all those who were saved under the Old Testament wer saved, including Abraham, Enoch, Melchizadech, etc.

Under grace, we are filled with the Power of the HS so that we can walk in the law in freedom (not slaves to sin). Yes, the Levitical laws were connected to works, but in Christ, we can fulill the entirely of the Law by grace. The grace of God has always been a “free gift”, just as Abraham demonstrated.

 

[MariaG]

Darn it. So little time and I see that apo has been banned.

Oh, well. I am feeling lazy, so I don’t think I’ll post a lengthy rebuttal, just the few things that caught my eye. I don’t know, maybe more

Yes, because God saves from the moment of belief. It is God Himself who does the saving - all of it, by the power of His sovereign grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus…

Yes, God does save by the power of His grace and Christ’s saving blood.

But that grace never overrules our free will. Ever. As Paul says, we must persevere to the end. Some won’t persevere and will be lost.

Based on Rome’s “gospel,” no one can know he’s saved because, ultimately, salvation is based on one’s own performance - not Christ’s. That’s the difference,

No, this is quite wrong, the Catholic Church does not teach what you claim. That is not the difference. We do not believe in OSAS because we can’t know if our FAITH will persevere to the end.

We do things not to earn heaven, but we do things because these “things” spring from the Grace of God and our faith. If we stop “doing” things, our faith is dead and we are lost. Not because we failed to do anything, but because we lost our faith and failed to respond to God’s grace.

Now certainly people can still “do” things, and still be lost. But we KNOW that a saving faith, will have works, just as we KNOW that faith without works, is dead.

Phil. 2:12 does not say to work FOR our salvation with fear and trembling. But the context is to work “outward” your salvation unto maturity.

Nor does the Catholic Church teach that we must work for or earn our salvation.

Actually, the biggest lie that Satan has succeeded in is the introduction of another “gospel.” A “gospel” based on works rather than grace. We actually see it introduced quite early into the church, deceiving those at Galatia. Paul immediately responded with:Gal. 1:6-9 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel (good news) of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"This “other gospel” is very subtle, Maria. It speaks of Christ and uses words like faith and grace, but ultimately it’s about self and works. What YOU must do in order to be saved. This other “gospel” takes on as many forms with as many rules to achieve salvation as there are those who preach it. But it’s impotent to save because it circumvents the cross, avoids grace and demands meritorious works for salvation. In other words, at the heart of it is the disobedience of unbelief.But the gospel of God’s reigning grace says:Heb 4:10 "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through {following} the same example of disobedience.

The Catholic Church simply does not teach what you claim. I do not believe I will be saved based on anything I do but only because of the saving blood of Christ. Any works I do, are in response to the grace of God, and I may not brag on them. But without them, I would have a dead faith. I pray that someday you will be able to understand this.

May the Lord keep you safe.Maria

 

[MariaG]

Through His blood sacrifice Jesus, as the Lamb of God, took away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29) Hence, ALL humanity (the world) needed it.** But it is not applied** until personal belief in Him (“for by grace you have been saved through faith”).

It is a substitutionary sacrifice executed in this world’s history. It’s an historical event which had a beginning and an end. The Son entered, by birth, into our time and space in order to accomplish redemption, once for all. The effects of His sacrificial death are eternal, but the sacrifice itself was finite. The work He accomplished through it was "finished."And the one who believes enters into that finished work.

Did you just read what you wrote? So in fact, Christ’s sacrifice, although a one time event, with a beginning and end without the history of time, is ALSO, a timeless event that believers benefit from throughout time. It is not an either or, it is both, as you yourself stated.

I said:We each MUST choose to accept or reject the gift of His sacrifice and His redeeming blood is applied to us individually.

Not true! The jailer at Phillipi asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved.” The Apostolic response was, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.” He was not told to accept or reject any gift. He was told he must BELIEVE, and upon belief he was then gifted salvation. Nowhere in Scripture is salvation taught to be contingent upon one’s continuous will to either accept or reject “the gift.” But upon (freewill) belief one is gifted salvation (Eph. 2:8-9), sanctification (Rom. 3:24), eternal life (Rom. 6:23), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Corporately, they’re “the gift” of salvation and are not given and kept according to our will but are the believer’s gifts according to God’s good pleasure toward us at the time of true faith in His beloved Son.

What?

What do you think I mean when I say we must accept the gift? We must believe to accept the gift of salvation. Frankly, I am shocked. I have NEVER had any Christian who denied that salvation was a gift, a free gift available to all, and not based on anything we do.

You seriously need to think about things instead of assuming that just because I am a Catholic Christian, I must be wrong.

The proposition for salvation, and all it entails, giftwise, is not to accept or reject “the gift,” but to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus.

Accepting the Gift is believing. Rejecting the gift of salvation, it to disbelieve.

A favorite theologian of mine once wrote that any person who believes he can lose his salvation has never really given any thought to what salvation is.Then, ultimately, if you fall, it is God who failed. And at the end of the day your salvation or demise depends not on God’s power to save by grace, but YOU.

Respectfully, you need to find a new favorite theologian. What you and your favorite fail to understand is that no matter how much grace God gives us, we always have the free will to walk away. We always can change our minds and hearts and no longer BELIEVE.

It is not at if once we beleive, God never allows us to disbelieve at a future date.

 

[MariaG]

Originally Posted by MariaG
Again, you misunderstand the Catholic teaching. We only “participate” in Christ’s sacrifice in the manner that scripture tells us to take up our cross and follow Him in faith, through grace.

Nowhere in Matt. 16:24, Mk. 8:34 or Lk. 9:23 does Jesus say anything about participating in His sacrifice or even His redemptive work on the cross. Christ’s words there are not a description of the way of salvation (or negatively how to lose it), but rather the philosophy of life for a true disciple of His. A disciple of Christ in no way participates in His redemptive work on their behalf. He does, however, rejoice in it and shares the “good news” with others.

I say that we participate not in the way you think but by following Him in faith through Grace. And then you again repeat what you think we believe and fail to comment on what I actually said.

We shouldn’t follow Him Him in Faith through grace?

Following Him in faith is not picking up our Cross? Following Him is not "participating’ in the redemptive grace given to us?

And possibly he could even be called to give his life for the sake of that “gospel” (good news).To the contrary, it is the fundamental difference between us.Return “IT?” How does one “return” eternal life (an oxymoron)? How does one “return” justification? How does one “return” the Holy Spirit? How does one even “return” salvation?

Salvation isn’t a fancy wrapped object. It’s forgiveness of sins, justification, reconciliation, sanctification, new life in Christ. These aren’t yours to take and give back at whim. They’re the possession of saints (by grace), not sinners.

We always have free will.

To take your analogy to the end, how did Adam and Eve fall from Grace? They had eternal life but chose death by choosing to disobey God. How did they die if one can’t disobey God and choose spritual death when one has eternal life?

The inheritance of the prodigal son was not “eternal.” Whereas the believer’s is. And as for the prodigal son, throughout all his rebellion he never lost his sonship.Gal 3:26 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."The parable is not about salvation. But the moral of the story is found in the attitude of the other son. He despised his father for being so gracious to his brother. Pure, unadulterated GRACE is always repugnant to the religious legalist.

The difference between the believer and the prodigal son is that the believer’s inheritance is reserved in heaven where it can’t be "squandered.“1 Pet 1:3-5 " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to {obtain} an inheritance {which is} imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Okay, you can choose to interpret scripture any way you want. But to think that it is not a story about one’s salvation boggles my mind and disagrees with all Christian pastors I have ever heard speak on this. Catholics are not the only Christians who believe OSAS is false.

Respectfully and sorrowfully,
Maria