What must one do to be saved?

[apophasis]

Very good. But remember, Paul did preach the Church.
And the Church was born through the cross, so no problem with 1 Cor 1:17 here!

He didn’t preach the church for salvation, but the cross of Christ. Those who believed his message became part of the church Christ is presently building (Matt. 16:18).

 

[apophasis]

MariaG:

I am trying to point out to you that whether initial or otherwise, that snippet shows that any “works” that are done, are only possible from Grace in the first place.

But those works are not the basis for a believer’s salvation. Only Christ’s sacrificial work on our behalf and in our stead, since only His work alone deals with sin(s) which separated us from God in the first place. For this reason it’s “by grace through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works.” ANY works (other than Christ’s).

Our salvation is not CONTINGENT on subsequent works, but they do show whether or not it is a “true” faith, or a dead one. Faith without works is dead.

Then on what basis is catholic justification “initial?” What finally causes it to become permanent?

I am trying to point out to you, that although we use different language, and that you believe in OSAS, and I do not, that in reality, the result is the same.

Is it? On what grounds?

I have not gotten the idea from you that you think a person who is truly saved will not have fruit in their life? Do you?

True. But “fruit” does not produce salvation.

And my Baptist friends, I have yet to met one who thinks that one will “do” nothing if a person is truly saved. And that the person who APPEARS to have fruit, but falls away, was never saved to begin with, whereas I believe the person could have been truly saved, but did not persevere until the end and turned their back on God.

Personally, I wasn’t called to be a “fruit inspector.” And one is not saved through perseverence, but “by grace through faith.” According to God’s Word, it’s GIFTED at the time of true belief in Christ, not rewarded at the end of one’s life because of perseverance. If it was then it is not “by grace” at all, and God is found to be a liar.

Curious: At the bottom of your posts you write that you’re “blood bought.” What does that mean to you?

 

[grandfather]

But those works are not the basis for a believer’s salvation. Only Christ’s sacrificial work on our behalf and in our stead, since only His work alone deals with sin(s) which separated us from God in the first place.

In order for you to understand the role of the Church, the people of God, her participation in His redemptive work, you need to understand the OT prophetic statements about the nation of priests, the royal priesthood, the priestly people God promised to raise Himself. The Church is the body of Christ. He who is the eternal high priest is in us, His priestly people. We too are sacrifice. What makes a priest a priest is the offering of sacrifice. The early fathers and St. Peter saw all Christians, all the baptized as incorporated into this divinely promised priesthood. Christ suffered for others. We too can suffer for others, give our lives in sacrifice for the spiritual betterment of others. Mother Teresa is one example of this, but every person is called to take up His cross and follow the eternal high priest. Why did Christ ask us to do this and make it a necessary work for all of His followers to DO? Was it to prove they are tough? That would be meaningless. He takes all of the suffering of His Body the Church (we are one body) and incorporates it into His own and offers it to the Father. He is in us. We are HIs body. Our suffering and sacrifice is His, because the Church is His body. We are one flesh. We are flesh of His flesh. His sacrifice is the only sacrifice “acceptable” to the Father for the redemption of His people. We see the concept of sacrifice throughout the OT. In the first instance it is Cain and Abel who offer their sacrifices. One is acceptable and one unacceptable. How did the Jews know their temple sacrifice was acceptable to God? The miracle of Hanukah was the lamps staying lit in the temple miraculously. So what? What was the big deal. If they went out just relight them. They were kept burning from the fire that came down from heaven when the priests of Baal were defeated in the contest with the prophet Elijah. This is the fire that was used by the Jews and they believed it made their sacrifice acceptable. If it went out they would have needed another miracle of fire from heaven. Instead they got a miracle of oil not running out. What was the other miracle of oil by a prophet? It was the widow who lived with her son who made bread for the prophet. The wheat and oil did not run out. The bread from heaven is multiplied and the bread that comes down from heaven is Christ who multiplied bread. We are that multiplication. Where else do we see a widow and son? At the gates of Nain when Christ raises the widows dead only son, because He “pities the widow”. Mary is the widow. On Easter every year an Orthodox bishop goes into the Church of the Holy Sepluchre in Jerusalem and is searched by Israeli soldiers for matches. He comes out with fire and lights the candles of all the faithful waiting to receive the light. This miracle occurs annually. On Pentacost tongues of fire came down on the apostles and Mary. What did this mean? What was the significance? It meant that THEY were acceptable sacrifice.
<<<<<

 

[savedsinner]

For by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works…" You, however keep trying to drag works into the equation.

No, I am not trying to drag works into the equation. I am trying to drag love into the equation.

“And above all things have fervent love among yourselves; for love shall cover a multitude of sins.” – 1 Peter 4:8.

“We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that does not love his brother remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.” – 1John 3:14,15.

“If a man say, ‘I love God.’, and hates his brother, he is a liar: For he that does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God Whom he has not seen? And He has given us this command: ‘That he who loves God love his brother.’”—1John 4:20-21.

“Therefore be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged; condemn not, and you shall not be condemned: forgive, and you shall be forgiven.” – Luke 6:36-37.

“Bear with one another, and forgive whatever grievances you have against one another. Forgive as Christ forgave you.” –Colossians 3:13.

“Do not despise your brother in your heart. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.” – Lev.19:17-18.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be the children of your Father in Heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you only love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?—Matthew 5:43-47.

When Paul wrote "For by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works
He is talking about salvation in the past tense, he is talking about our initial salvation, and yes you are correct that is by faith apart from any works.
But what I am talking about is not initial salvation,I am talking about preservering to the end I am talking about living out you faith with love.
We need to live out our faith in love.
Just as James writes "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. " and "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Do you believe that one can’t lose their salvation?
Maybe that is why you seem to be taking so many of these verses out of context and giving them meanings that the original writers did not intend.

I really don’t know how to discuss scripture with others that seem to adjust scripture to fit their theology, instead of adjusting their theology to fit scripture.

 

[MarcoPolo]

He didn’t preach the church for salvation, but the cross of Christ.

So do you follow Paul or Christ?

 

[grandfather]

No, I am not trying to drag works into the equation. I am trying to drag love into the equation.

I really don’t know how to discuss scripture with others that seem to adjust scripture to fit their theology, instead of adjusting their theology to fit scripture.

Here is the pattern. First there is the insistance that scripture alone decides matters of faith. Then a scriptural reference is cited that makes a statement supporting some doctrine. In this instance, that we are saved by faith. Others bring up other references that prove love and obedience and hope are also required. For example Jesus saying that we call Him lord, but unless we obey Him He is no good to us. Or, that Jesus welcomes or rejects people based on their works. The person insisting that faith alone saves ignores this and repeats his mantra, adding a twist that is not in scripture, like his knowledge that the parties must have had faith to be saved. It reminds me of a guy with a radio show who bills himself the Bible Answer Man. His show is the same every day. It is like he has one doctrine and that is Jesus saves us by His sacrifice. There can be no other doctrinal statement about anything, because Jesus is the Savior. There is something akin to insanity in this behavior. It makes it impossible to have a discussion. Think for a moment why someone would insist that loving God is not necessary for salvation, when scripture clearly says it is. In order to understand this one has to put oneself in Luther’s shoes, the father of the doctrine, the man who concocted the sola fide doctrine. It is possible to understand why he made this up when one understands his personal situation. It is too long to get into here. The second thing to think about is what is the effect on the soul that believes something false about salvation. If you believe all you need to do is believe then it does not matter if you repent or love God or what you do. Our consciences tell us if we are penitent. When a Catholic sees himself in sin he knows he is in trouble. Guilt has its proper effect, or should have. He knows he better not die in his sins. If you believe you are saved once and for all simply by believing Jesus is who He is no matter what you do, the way you deal with personal sin changes. You absolve yourself based on the fact that you believe in Christ. You ignore His admonition that you must DO what He tells you, obey His commands. In fact you deny what He says about the matter. You ignore the gospel which is the the “good news of repentance for forgiveness of sin”. You don’t need to be sorry for your sins, all you have to do is believe in the identity of the Savior and you comfort yourself that all is well.

 

[apophasis]

>>>>>>In order for you to understand the role of the Church, the people of God, her participation in His redemptive work, you need to understand the OT prophetic statements about the nation of priests, the royal priesthood, the priestly people God promised to raise Himself.

The church/body of Christ is made up of all the redeemed since Pentecost.1 Pet 1:18"…knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ."Redemption is through sacrificial blood, His precious blood. A historical, finished, sacrificial work in which no man can participate. When sinners, by faith, turn to Christ they are purchased (redeemed) forever out of the slave market of sin, never to be returned (Gr. agorazo, ekagorazo, lutroo). It is the redeemed (purchased ones) who make up the church/body of Christ. They did not, nor cannot redeem themselves but are, in fact, redeemed.Eph 1:7 "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us."The church does not participate in redeeming itself - it IS, itself, redeemed (purchased) through His blood.Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Rev 5:9 "And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood {men} from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”

We too are sacrifice. What makes a priest a priest is the offering of sacrifice.

Not for redemption. Redemption was accomplished through His sacrificial blood. The only sacrifice the redeemed can offer is the presenting of their bodies as holy to the Lord, i.e., not conforming themselves to this evil age (Rom. 12:1-2). And by prayer they may intercede for others. But there is only one sacrifice that has the power to redeem men. And it was a bloody one.

Christ suffered for others. We too can suffer for others

Not for their redemption.

Mother Teresa is one example of this

M.T. struggled even with belief in the existence of God. Nor was it her policy to try to convert anyone to belief in Christ. Compare that to Peter, Paul, John, Apollos and the others.

He takes all of the suffering of His Body the Church (we are one body) and incorporates it into His own and offers it to the Father.

Can you give me a divine source for this doctrinal revelation? I can’t find it in Scripture.

His sacrifice is the only sacrifice “acceptable” to the Father for the redemption of His people.

Amen. And that redemptive work He accomplished and finished on the cross. When one turns to Christ by faith His finished work of redemption is applied, in full, to the believer, being forever redeemed (purchased) - God’s own possession.

Then on what basis is catholic justification “initial?” What finally causes it to become permanent?Is it?

Perseverance in grace until death.<<<<

But Paul writes to the contrary:Rom 3:24 "…being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;I have yet to find in the N.T. the Catholic teaching that justification is initially gifted by God and in any way finished through us. Why? Because that would be a contradiction of terms.

Salvation is the fruit. <<<<<<<

The fruit of what?

Perseverance is grace.<<<<<

In the Greek the equivalent to grace is “favor,” not perseverance.

Gift and grace are the same word. Grace means gift.

Yes. If something is done for you “by grace” it is done according to “favor.” There is no recompense expected. It is unmerited and undeserved. So yes, salvation is perfectly “gifted to the sinner at the time of personal faith in Christ.”"For by GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) you are saved, through faith…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works (merit)"It is not gifted if it must wait upon perseverance. Salvation is, however, a perfect gift based on a perfect, sacrificial work on our behalf. Batteries are included (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) and no assembly (works) is ever required to complete it. It’s by GRACE.

 

[apophasis]

savedsinner:

No, I am not trying to drag works into the equation. I am trying to drag love into the equation.

We’re not saved by our love, but His:1 John 4:10 “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.”

When Paul wrote "For by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works He is talking about salvation in the past tense, he is talking about our initial salvation, and yes you are correct that is by faith apart from any works.

Biblically there’s no such thing as “initial” salvation, any more than there is “initial” justification. It’s past tense because it’s a completed, historically finished event. In Christ I am SAVED. The Catholic doctrine that one is saved, being saved, and will be saved is unbiblical. It’s unique to Catholicism and stems from unbelief that God has the power to save immediately and forever, through Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross, those who turn to Christ by faith (Rom. 1:16-17). Yet that is the Apostolic message taken to the world.

But what I am talking about is not initial salvation, I am talking about preservering to the end I am talking about living out you faith with love. We need to live out our faith in love.

The saved are exhorted to love the brethren (and even our enemies), for Christ’s sake. But salvation itself is gifted “through faith” (in Christ), not the result of one’s persevering love to the end.

Do you believe that one can’t lose their salvation?

Can a man be unborn?

 

[grandfather]

The church/body of Christ is made up of all the redeemed since Pentecost.1 Pet 1:18"…knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ."

Redemption is through sacrificial blood, His precious blood. A historical, finished, sacrificial work in which no man can participate. When sinners, by faith, turn to Christ they are purchased (redeemed) forever out of the slave market of sin, never to be returned (Gr. agorazo, ekagorazo, lutroo).

.

So once you turned to Christ you never returned to sin? You have never sinned since coming to faith? Or, are you still in sin, but telling yourself it is acceptable as long as you have faith? Do you believe it is possible to get victory over sin or are you doomed to remain in your sins, a slave, and tell yourself that it is ok as long as you have faith that they all will be overlooked? When Jesus says He will reward those who overcome, what does He mean? Do you need to repent or is it ok for you to remain in sin as long as you believe Jesus is the Son of God and died for sinners? Luther believed it was ok to remain in sin. In one of His famous statements, or infamous, depending on your viewpoint, he compared us to lumps of dung covered by the snow. We are rotten but covered by Christ’s blood so the Father can not see our rottenness and we sneak into heaven cloaked. Do you believe this? Or do you believe Christ’s blood transforms us, cleanses us inside and out and makes us truly holy. Those who have never been freed, believe freedom is impossible. You can see this in the modern culture. People believe that it is impossible to control their impulses, because they have no control. The effect of grace is not to get you to heaven despite your sins. It is to free you from them entirely. We are not made perfect (holy) instantly. It is normally a change that happens over time. God perfects us as we cooperate with grace. Jesus does not overlook your sins. He does not leave you in them crippled. He takes them away by His grace. Why would Luther come up with the dung theory? It was because he did not have the grace of repentance and he wanted to find a way to make it ok to remain in sin. We all have to ask ourselves what our condition is. Why would anyone deny that love of God is necessary for salvation when scripture says it is and the Church always said it is? Why would this person come up with the notion that faith alone saves us, when scripture denies that? If you do not believe you need to love God to be saved, to reciprocate His love, then you will accept your present condition and persist in it telling yourself it is acceptable. Luther told himself it was not necessary to obey God, because he couldn’t. It was a way to justify sinfulness. God does not justify sin. He forgives it and destroys it. When the patient tells himself he is not sick he is in big trouble. It does not matter what he believes. You can truly be freed from sin. You can have victory over it. Jesus will make you free by His grace. This is what you need to have faith in and believe. The alternative is remaining sick and telling yourself you are well. Jesus is not only the spotless lamb. He makes you spotless. Isn’t that what you want? Are you spotless now? If you are not, will you be made white or will you remain and die in your sins? Please do not think I am accusing you of being a hypocrit or evil. If I am calling you sinful I have done worse. These are honest questions all people should ask themselves. We really do want to know our spiritual condition. If all we need to do is believe, you have got it made. If we need to love also then you have to obey God as well as believe Him. There is a way.

 

[guanophore]

He didn’t preach the church for salvation, but the cross of Christ. Those who believed his message became part of the church Christ is presently building (Matt. 16:18).

There is no separation between the two, Apo. Those who have embraced the cross are members of his Body, the Church. When Paul was persecuting the Church, he was persecuting Jesus. The Church is the conduit through which Jesus has chosen to carry the missionary message to the world.

 

[guanophore]

The church/body of Christ is made up of all the redeemed since Pentecost.

We believe that the Body includes all those who are saved, both those who came before Pentecost, and those that have come after. We also believe that the purchase did not occur at Pentecost, but on the cross.

Redemption is through sacrificial blood, His precious blood. A historical, finished, sacrificial work in which no man can participate.

The church teaches us that Christ died for all, but that not all will choose to gift of eternal life through his sacrifice. We participate when we recieve the gift by faith. Without this personal participation, the finished work will have no avail upon the individual. Each person has a choice whether or not to participate in His sacrifice.

When sinners, by faith, turn to Christ they are purchased (redeemed) forever out of the slave market of sin, never to be returned (Gr. agorazo, ekagorazo, lutroo).

The Church teaches that the purchased occurred once for all time on the cross. We have already been purchased by his finished work. It is as if someone went through the grocery line and paid for us. Some people refuse to get into the grocery bag, and go with the person who paid!

Those who choose to participate will inherit eternal life, those that refuse to accept His payment will not.

The church does not participate in redeeming itself - it IS, itself, redeemed (purchased) through His blood.

She is indeed purchased by Him,and sanctifed through and for Him. However, this is not a passive,but an active state. Those who do not persevere in grace are just jumping out of the grocery bag.

Redemption was accomplished through His sacrificial blood. The only sacrifice the redeemed can offer is the presenting of their bodies as holy to the Lord, i.e., not conforming themselves to this evil age (Rom. 12:1-2). And by prayer they may intercede for others.

We unite ourselves with the cross, so that, in dying with Him, we may rise to a new life. In this way we participate in His sacrifice. Yes, living a life worthy of the calling to which we have been called is our spiritual work. This is not works of the flesh, but the sacred work which God has prepared from the foundation of the world for us to do.

But there is only one sacrifice that has the power to redeem men. And it was a bloody one.Not for their redemption.
apophasis;2966798:

And that redemptive work He accomplished and finished

on the cross. When one turns to Christ by faith His finished work of redemption is applied, in full, to the believer, being forever redeemed (purchased) - God’s own possession.

This requires action on the part of the individual. It is not passive, but active. I was wondering yesterday, Apo, if you ever had any problems trusting others. It occurred to me that you may be one of those rare individuals who has never been deeply wounded, nad can trust others without any effort. I think that most people, to put trust in someone and to have faith takes effort, some more than others. I am not saying this happens without grace, just that it is not passive.

 

[guanophore]

I have yet to find in the N.T. the Catholic teaching that justification is initially gifted by God and in any way finished through us.

No, you will not, because that is not Catholic teaching. since the Bible completely reflects Catholic teaching, then that is all you will find there. If you cannot understand the Catholic teaching, it is because you are reading your Bible with your Reformed Blinders on.

Why? Because that would be a contradiction of terms.The fruit of what?In the Greek the equivalent to grace is “favor,” not perseverance.

How do you figure that? How can anyone persevere in faith without grace?

If something is done for you “by grace” it is done according to “favor.” There is no recompense expected. It is unmerited and undeserved. So yes, salvation is perfectly “gifted to the sinner at the time of personal faith in Christ.”"For by GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) you are saved, through faith…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works (merit)"It is not gifted if it must wait upon perseverance.

This is erroneous logic. Refusing to accept the gift doesn not make it any less of a gift. Returning the gift at a later time does not make it less of a gift. Spurning the HS in whom one is sealed does not make the HS “merited” in the first place!

Salvation is, however, a perfect gift based on a perfect, sacrificial work on our behalf. Batteries are included (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) and no assembly (works) is ever required to complete it. It’s by GRACE.

Jesus did complete a perfect, finished work. However, the human beings to whom this gift comes are not perfect finished work (yet). By the power of that indwelling HS, we are expected to fully participate in the grace of our salvation.

 

[MarcoPolo]

He didn’t preach the church for salvation, but the cross of Christ.

So do you follow Paul or Christ?

apophasis??

 

[foundthelight]

We have been redeemed by Christ’s Sacrifice from our slavery to sin. But just as those who were redeemed by a kinsman in the OT could do the wrong thing and ultimately end up back in slavery, we to can do the wrong thing (sin) and end up back in slavery. This is why we are told to persevere. To prevent that fall back into slavery.

 

[grandfather]

He didn’t preach the church for salvation, but the cross of Christ.

The Church is the beacon set on the hill by Christ. If you do not find it, you will not find salvation in Christ.<<<<<<<<<<

So do you follow Paul or Christ? <<<<<<<<<

Both! and you?

 

[savedsinner]

We’re not saved by our love, but His:1 John 4:10 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins."Biblically there’s no such thing as “initial” salvation, any more than there is “initial” justification. It’s past tense because it’s a completed, historically finished event. In Christ I am SAVED. The Catholic doctrine that one is saved, being saved, and will be saved is unbiblical. It’s unique to Catholicism and stems from unbelief that God has the power to save immediately and forever, through Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross, those who turn to Christ by faith (Rom. 1:16-17). Yet that is the Apostolic message taken to the world.The saved are exhorted to love the brethren (and even our enemies), for Christ’s sake. But salvation itself is gifted “through faith” (in Christ), not the result of one’s persevering love to the end.Can a man be unborn?

Well, I see that I am not making any headway with you here, you seem to counter every scripture passage I put forth. I guess I should have listed all the many scripture passages that support the Catholic view of salvation at once instead of one at a time, at least that would have kept you busy for a while countering all of them at once.

I will leave you with one last passage, and then I think I will go onto different theads.

John 15:1 - 17
[1]
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
[2] Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
[3] You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
[6] If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.
[7] If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
[8] By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.
[9] As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.
[10] If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.
[11] These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
[12]"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
[13] Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
[14] You are my friends if you do what I command you.
[15] No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
[16] You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
[17] This I command you, to love one another.

 

[guanophore]

apophasis??

Apo is a strict Paulist. He takes his soteriology primarily.from Paul. In fact, he once posted his belief that Jesus did not have much of anything pertinent to say about salvation, since He had not yet been crucified.

 

[grandfather]

We’re not saved by our love, but His:
1 John 4:10 “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.”

Think about what love is and how it works. It is given, received and returned. There can not be a giver and no receiver/reciprocater. In fact this is the dynamic of the Blessed Trinity.<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, I see that I am not making any headway with you here, you seem to counter every scripture passage I put forth.
I will leave you with one last passage, and then I think I will go onto different theads.
.

The famous Dr. James Dobson, psychologist and Protestant evangelist told a story about when he first went to work in a mental hospital. He was told that it was impossible to present logical evidence to dissuade people from their delusions and he should not try that approach. He met a patient who claimed to be dead. He asked the man if dead people can bleed. The man said no. Dobson pricked the man’s finger and made him bleed. The man was shocked to find out that dead people can bleed. Evidence, scriptural or logical does not convince here. Reason does not work. Maybe it is God who prepares souls to hear and receive the truth. We pray that unity of faith will be restored. Apologists and apologetical exercise have a place in this, but have limitations in making that happen. Maybe it is more about hearts than heads.

 

[guanophore]

We’re not saved by our love, but His:1 John 4:10 “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.”

Indeed! And we are expected to respond to that love in an appropriate manner.
apophasis;2966831:

Biblically there’s no such thing as "initial

" salvation, any more than there is “initial” justification.

Salvation being a many splendored thing, it has many aspects. We are moved by the prevenient grace of God. There comes a point in time where a commitment is made. For Catholics, this occurs at baptism, if not before, and we believe that sins are washed away. This is a beginning point, or initiation of our walk with Jesus.

It’s past tense because it’s a completed, historically finished

event. In Christ I am SAVED.

There is certainly a point in time where, when one is baptized, it is clear that saving grace has been poured out and the individual is in Christ. This being initiation, many things can happen after that.

The Catholic doctrine that one is saved, being saved, and will be saved is unbiblical.

Only to the Refomed eye. See, for Catholics, we know that the Bible was written by, for, and about Catholics, and that it’s contents are best understood in light of Catholic teaching.

It’s unique to Catholicism and stems from unbelief that God has the power to save immediately and forever, through Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross, those who turn to Christ by faith (Rom. 1:16-17).

This is a spurious allegation. Catholics are the ones that wrote in the NT that God has the power to save immediatly and forever. If Catholics did not believe that, it would not be written, since the scripture is a reflection of hte teaching of the church.

Yet that is the Apostolic message taken to the world.The saved

are exhorted to love the brethren (and even our enemies), for Christ’s sake. But salvation itself is gifted “through faith” (in Christ), not the result of one’s persevering love to the end.Can a man be unborn?

The ability to persevere in love to the end is gifted to us by God’s grace. It is no less a gift than the initial gift of justification when we are first washed and cleansed. The two are not to be separated from each other. Salvation starts, continues, and ends with the grace of God.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Apo is a strict Paulist. He takes his soteriology primarily.from Paul. In fact, he once posted his belief that Jesus did not have much of anything pertinent to say about salvation, since He had not yet been crucified.

Well that’s certainly interesting. I just wanted to see if he followed both…because he seemed to think it impossible to follow the Church and Christ as if they are opposed.