What must one do to be saved?

[apophasis]

savedsinner:

Well, is God going to judge people for there works, or not.

For salvation? No! Never! The value of the “works” of the saved will be appraised at the judgment seat of Christ and they (the saved) will be rewarded (or not) accordingly (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

The deeds of “the dead” (those who do not have “life” in the Son) will also be appraised at the future, great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

However, it must be understood that no one ever goes to hell (the “Lake of Fire”) because of their deeds (sins). They’re there because of their unbelief. And this side of the cross they refused to believe the testimony God has given concerning His Son. Hence, their name is not in the “book of Life.” They do not have the Son, therefore they do not have the LIFE. That’s why they’re called “the dead.”

 

[apophasis]

One of our biggest challenges as Catholics is destroying this either/or fallacy that non-Catholics inevitably pose.

Any ideas on how to best explain that salvation through the Church IS salvation through Christ?

Did Paul preach “the church” or Christ?1 Cor. 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but the preach the gospel…”

1 Cor. 1:23 “But we preach Christ (Messiah) crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness”

1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

1 Cor 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.Looks like the job of the church is to preach Christ and Him crucified for salvation, not itself. One could ask the same question of “the church” that Paul asked of himself in 1 Cor. 1:13: "The church was not crucified for you, was it?"

 

[guanophore]

But don’t add to the verse.

I didn’t “add” Apo. I am pointing out that what is expected of us as saved persons should not be separated from what saves us. we are saved by grace, through faith, so that we can engage in the work that God has prepared for us.

The new identity we have as saved persons always expresses itself in deeds. Such deeds cannot be separated from the saving grace through which they spring.

"But **you are **a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, **that you may **declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.

11 Beloved, I beseech you as aliens and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh that wage war against your soul. 12 Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in case they speak against you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation." Peter 2:9-12

Christ has redeemed us “that we may” declare, abstain, maintain, etc etc. This is the part of salvation denied by the Reformed traditions, that separate salvation from the work that it produces. This separation is not consistent with Apostolic Teaching.

"You’re not saved by your obedience, but by His. Even His obedience to death on a cross.When you finally realize you can do nothing, then by faith turn to Christ and He will save you according to the power of His sovereign grace through Christ Jesus.What He has done for us is send His Son to die in our stead.

This is true, and it Catholic Teaching. However the Apostles also teach us that, when we enter into His grace, we also enter into His obedience.

15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."John 14:15

" If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.
John 15:10-11

Note the conditional clause, if…then. Obedience is how we remain in His love. Apart from His love, we can do nothing.

It is the ingrate who refuses to believe but instead turns to law (in all its religious forms) for righteousness.No! I am saying only the saved are now “in Christ.” The believer does not pop in and out of Christ (the “last Adam”) any more than the unbeliever pops in and out of Adam. “In Christ” is the believer’s new, eternal identity.

I agree that it is an ingrate or uniformed person that relies upon self rather than God. I am not sure “pop” is the best word for it, but a person does go in and out of a state of grace. Eternal life can be likened to a river of living water. One can get in, and stay in, or get in, then get out. It is also possible to “pop” in and out, but dangerous.

Rather, it’s through personal faith in Christ Jesus that God gifts salvation, justification and eternal life according to sovereign grace.You take it out of context.

I do not, Apo. The context of the NT is the Apostolic Teaching from which it sprang. When one reads the NT in context, then one is reading it in the light of the Catholic Church.

Any other reading is out of context.

However, in respect to salvation, Paul taught that he, and all true believers, died with Christ on the cross and are now raised to new life “in Him” (see Rom. 6; Eph. 2:4-7; Col. 3:1-3)I do not. Because what you’re contending here is not faith in Christ’s sacrificial work for salvation, but merit through your own “worthy” deeds of repentance. A spin gospel.

Perhaps something I wrote was not clear, though I am not sure what it was. Paul also taught:

“repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.” Acts 26:20-21

I am not proposing that one should attempt these deeds apart from saving grace, but based upon saving grace. The two cannot be separated from one another. A person who has recieved saving grace will perform deeds worthy of that repentance. Anything else is “cheap” grace.

 

[guanophore]

That being said, I have another questions I have been wanting to ask you on this topic.

1. Do you agree that all the passages in the NT that speak of judgement are based on one’s deeds?
2. What are the “works” in Sardis that are imperfect?

"‘I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. 2 Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God. 3 Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ Rev 3:1-6

1. How can someone’s name be “blotted out” of the Book of Life if it was not written there to in the first place, and if a name can be “blotted out” do you contend that this is a person who was never saved in the first place? If so, why did Jesus write their name in the Book of Life? I do not know how the OSAS folks understand this passage. Perhaps you can help?

 

[foundthelight]

My choice is to believe or not believe. Upon my personal belief in the testimony of God concerning His Son (what He accomplished for me on the cross), God “gifted” me eternal life. I did not earn it:Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.It’s eternal because upon belief I received His life (the Son’s), being now “in Him” (2 Cor. 5:17)1 John 5:9-13 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.No, FTL, I cannot “earn” what is freely given upon true belief (Rom. 8:32; 1 Cor. 12:12; Eph. 1:6; cf. 1 Cor. 4:7).

Your choice, FTL, is to believe the testimony of men or the testimony of God. Which do you think is greater?

I was pointing out a logical flaw in your arguments.

If you call obedience to Christ as exemplified in partaking of the Eucharist, being baptised, and doing good to be works, because they come from our decision to be obedient, then your decision to have faith in Christ is every bit as much a work. The thoughts and actions are the same.

Either they are all works or none are works.

 

[JCChick]

One of our biggest challenges as Catholics is destroying this either/or fallacy that non-Catholics inevitably pose.

Any ideas on how to best explain that salvation through the Church IS salvation through Christ? I could probably come up with some stuff, but my eyes are tired right this second. :hypno:

But we don’t say “In the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and The Church.” Im Catholic–but this is something I dont get. Also, someone said somewhere on here that you dont have to accept Jesus Christ to be saved…HUH?

 

[guanophore]

Paul is not describing how one gets saved here.

Do you believe that people who have never heard the gospel can be saved?

From Adam to Moses, did men not die? Yes. They died without the Law. Why? Because, as Paul teaches, “all sinned” (in Adam, see Rom. 5:12, 14).

Since nothing unclean can enter heaven, how do you explain that Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven? If they were in sin, how did they get “clean”?

You mean conscience? Conscience convicts you of sin, not righteousness.

It does both. Otherwise the conscience could not “excuse” a person. Baptism cleanses the conscience, so that it can function the way it was intended to function, knowing right and wrong.

 ALL are in need of divine GRACE  sus

." Hence, "what must one do to be saved?" That question was asked 2000 years ago and the answer was provided immediately (see Acts 16:30-31).

If following the commandments is not salvific, why did Christ say it was?

And even Peter called it “a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear” (Acts 15:10). Teaching instead:

Acts 15:9 “…and He made no distinction between us (Jews, who had the Law) and them (Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by faith.”
​

At the time, Peter was not referring to the moral law, but to the levitical law. The levitical law is ended in Christ, the moral law fulfilled.

There you have it, my friend. Pure, unadulterated Apostolic teaching on “what one must do to be saved.” The O.P. has his answer.In your unbelief you teach contrary to the Apostolic message.

Not so, apophasis! Catholics recognize that it is not possible to comply with the moral law without the grace of god, and that attempting to do so will result in dismal failure.

How long will you continue to deny Apostolic teaching?A testimony to the fact that Christ did not die needlessly. His blood cleanses us from all sins.

It is not a denial, but a different understanding of the meaning of the teaching. We don’t take it in a vacuum, but along with the rest of the Apostolic teaching:

"…what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! 13 But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these,** be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish**, and at peace" .2 Peter 3:11-14

We recognize that we have a responsibility to do our part, which is to “remain”, to “cling” to “be zealous” and “do works that befit repentance”. None no these things done under our own merit or power, but by the grace that has come to us through His shed blood on the cross.

“…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
Phil 2:12-13

God is at work in us to will and to do his good pleasure. We have a responsibility to cooperate with the grace of God.​

 

[guanophore]

… when you say God bases salvation on any work other than the finished work of Christ on the cross.Christ was not sacrificed that we might do works as a part (a process) of our salvation.

Hmm. I would say His sacrifice made us able to participate in salvation, whereas before grace, we cannot. Man is not passive, but participant.

His finished, sacrificial work on the cross was a work of redemption and reconciliation toward men, and propitiation toward God.

Christ’s work was done, but ours was not. If it were, the end of the world would have come, and all those predestined would have gone immediately to heaven. Instead, He left a Church, and instructions, so that we could do our part of the work.

No more “work” was needed for God to then save a sinner "by grace through faith."It is God’s sovereign grace that saves a repentant sinner who believes the word concerning Christ’s substitutionary, sacrificial work on his behalf.

Certainly, but people have their part. Christ’s sacrifice was complete and efficacious, but each has to choose to participate in it. Not everyone is saved by grace, only those who receive the grace and apply it to themselves.

"Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29

Faith, and placing one’s belief is the “work of God” (sacred work as opposed to works of the flesh). Faith contains and act of the will, and the placing of trust in the sacrificial death of Christ. It goes beyond intellectual assent, as another poster stated. Believing in Christ with saving faith will make itself evident in deeds.

But those pleasing works are not the basis on which God saves a believer.

No, but they rest upon the basis, which is grace,and proceed from it. They cannot be separated from the grace by which we are saved through faith.

You’re basing salvation on your works whether God gives you the grace to do them or not.

This is not right. Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. Works that are separated from grace are not pleasing to God.

God saves based on Christ’s finished work alone. That’s why it’s “by grace through faith.” That’s why it’s gifed.But God does not save based on those works. He saves “by grace through faith.”

This is Catholic teaching. However Catholic teaching does not separate justification from sanctification and glorification. Catholics consider all these a seamless garment. Reformed theology has torn the garment into parts, separating the sanctified life from saviing faith.

Works do play a part “in” salvation ("created in Christ Jesus FOR good works…") but not “for” salvation.

I think we are in agreement on this point.

“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Yes, and that faith leads inevitably to “deeds which befit repentance”.

“And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.” 1 John 2:3-6

Jesus walked before the Father in perfect keeping of the commandments of God. By the grace poured out to us in His shed blood on the cross, we too are enabled to walk in obedience to the commandments. Obedience takes an act of the will, and thus, is “work”. It is working out our salvation. Salvation is a free gift of God. Then by that grace we walk, and obey, and pesevere to the end.

 

[guanophore]

I asked the above because, unless God forces us to have faith, having faith is a conscious decision and action on our part. Just the same as obeying Jesus in being baptised, partaking of the Eucharist and doing good deeds.

God does not “force” us to do anything. We are made in His image and likeness, and have free will. He has created mankind with the faculty of faith. This is a human quality that can be applied to any number of things. In order for our faith to save us, it must meet with His Divine Grace. Otherwise, we can apply our faith to all manner of beliefs and ways of living, and our faith will not save us. Faith belongs to the human makeup. Grace is Divine. T’he two must mix together for salvation to occur. The application of faith is the work of the person. Grace comes to us by hearing the Word of God, and that hearing kindles the faith within. We must then bring our faith to meet God’s grace.

“For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers.” Heb 4:2

 

[MariaG]

Council of Trent Sixth Session, Chapter XVI, on the fruits of justification:"to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits – "nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life."Now you’ll respond with, "You don’t understand Catholic teaching.Why would you think I’m trying to pick a fight by my response? I only asked you how you know what I believe without first inquiring.Fruit is derived and produced in the believer through the Spirit who indwells him and by Whom the believer is to walk (Gal. 5:16; cf. vss. 22-23, 25). Works, OTOH, are those deeds done by the believer in their present, yet unredeemed body, which will either be rewarded or not rewarded at the future judgment seat of Christ (see 2 Cor. 5:19; 1 Cor. 3:11-15). Said works neither add nor subtract from the believer’s salvation since it is God Himself who saves according to His infinite grace through faith in Christ - not our works.

Let’s take this line by line

Chapter XVI
On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.
Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner, - whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost,

**Therefore. This one starts off and says, okay, everything we said before. Summed up in two sentences. In what manner have they been justified? As said earlier, through the Grace of God. It goes on to say that one can be preseved “uninterrupted” or lose one’s grace, but repent again. **

It goes on to say, this concept is best explained by the apostles themselves

Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord;

1 Cor 15:58

for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name;

Heb 6:10

and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward.

Heb 10:35

I was going to do more, and respond more fully to this, but the problem here is that you are divorcing the works or fruit, from the grace of God, or rather think we are. One cannot earn our way to heaven. But as James says, faith without works is dead. So in order to have a “true” faith, or a “saving” faith, a faith that is not dead, one will have works. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

As for your definition of works, I disagree. IF one is rewarded for those works, why is it? Because they were done with the Grace of God. IF one is not rewarded, it is because they were done apart from the Grace of God and one will recieve nothing. That is, either it is a Fruit of the Spirit, a “good” work, or it is not.

And just a note, I read in one of the posts, something you? I believe said about substitionary atonement. We do not believe in a strict substitutionary atonement. Christ died for our sins, but He did not “take on” our sins.

Sorry for the incomplete and hurried reply. Sick Child.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MarcoPolo]

But we don’t say “In the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and The Church.” Im Catholic–but this is something I dont get.

Well, it’s like this. Do you say “I don’t follow the Bible. I follow Christ.” See, the statement makes no sense.

In the same way, it makes no sense to deny that we are saved through the Church yet INSTEAD saved through Christ. Salvation through the Church is the means by which Christ set it up!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Did Paul preach “the church” or Christ?

The two matters in your sentence are not opposed. It’s like saying “Did Paul preach love or Christ?”

Your analysis of Scripture is belied by Christ’s institution of a Church to bring Him to the world. I can go into those Scriptures at your request. Your denial of the role of Baptism, including your analysis of “did not send me to Baptize” has been well covered on this forum and elsewhere. Let me know if you would like to hear about that.

For those who wish better to understand why it is said that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation, refer to CCC #846:*How are we to understand this affirmation, **often repeated by the Church Fathers?**335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation:** the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church**. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336*Click here to read the Scriptural and other citations for the beliefs about the Church in this section of the Catechism.

 

[grandfather]

In Matt. 25:37 Jesus said:*“Then the righteous will answer Him saying…”*The key phrase here is “the righteous.” It’s not the works that made them “righteous.” But it was “the righteous” that did the works: they fed, clothed and visited. “The righteous” is an identity and describes those who are “justified” (declared righteous) giftwise by faith (Rom. 3:24, 28).

You are imposing your ideas on the text. <<<<<<<

 

[savedsinner]

For salvation? No! Never! The value of the “works” of the saved will be appraised at the judgment seat of Christ and they (the saved) will be rewarded (or not) accordingly (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

The deeds of “the dead” (those who do not have “life” in the Son) will also be appraised at the future, great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

However, it must be understood that no one ever goes to hell (the “Lake of Fire”) because of their deeds (sins). They’re there because of their unbelief. And this side of the cross they refused to believe the testimony God has given concerning His Son. Hence, their name is not in the “book of Life.” They do not have the Son, therefore they do not have the LIFE. That’s why they’re called “the dead.”

I will agree that faith is required for our initial salvation, but I believe the bible teaches that we must then remain in the faith to enter heaven, and that is shown by the way we live our faith, we must have love, charity, good works, or what ever else you want to describe it.

OK let’s say a “fire and brimstone” bible believing born again pastor, takes matters into his own hands.
He sees “sin” in his small town.
An abortion clinic that has opened up in town.
This man decides that the ends justifies the means, so he blows up the abortion clinic, killing doctors, nurses, mothers and their unborn babies, and several protesters outside the clinic.
A gay bar opens up, and he blows that up to rid his town of that sin, killing many gay’s and non gays who were in the bar at the time.
A porn shop opens up and he blows that up killing the people inside and several people next door going to a store next door.

This man is not sorry for what he has done, he believes that the innocent people will be considered “martyrs” for the cause.

He doesn’t repent of what he has done, and he was killed in the last bombing.

Are you saying that this man is not going to hell?

Are you saying that he is just not going to get the same “rewards” in heaven as, let us say, Mother Teresa, or maybe a “Billy Graham” type of faithful Christian?

And let’s say the same things are done by a Muslim religious leader for the same reasons, to rid his town of sin, are you saying that the Muslim religious leader will be going to hell because of his non-belief in Christ, and not for all the murders he has committed?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I will agree that faith is required for our initial salvation, but I believe the bible teaches that we must then remain in the faith to enter heaven, and that is shown by the way we live our faith, we must have love, charity, good works, or what ever else you want to describe it.

Does it seem that Protestants prefer to describe it as “having the faith” and Cathoilcs as “living the faith”. It does to me!

 

[grandfather]

The topic being discussed in this thread has been beaten to death for centuries. When people of different religions engage in dialogue or dispute there are a couple of things regarding human nature that need to be kept in mind. We all need to be mindful that resistance to the known truth is a grave sin. We do not want to resist truth. Logic says two statments that are contradictory can not be true. We all have a lot at stake or put a lot at stake when we become believers in a certain religion, in its doctrines. We do not want to admit what we believe is false. If someone demonstrates to me that a certain Catholic doctrine is false would I stop being a Catholic? I would not, because all that would prove is I personally had no answer to a specific attack. That does not mean there is no answer. If I were a Protestant I would think the same way. So winning arguments will understandably not automatically make converts. Then why bother discuss differences? It should never be for the sake of argument or getting satisfaction out of winning an argument. Unfortunately many people do this. Many times this type of discussion is a waste of time, when there is obstinacy. Watching the back and forth in a discussion on opposing doctrine is like watching a tug of war. It can go in one direction and then another and when one side finally starts to lose it collapses fast, but that does not mean conceding defeat. When it becomes obvious whether or not there is obstinacy on the part of the side with the collapsing argument certain signs are observable. The same statments get repeated, that have already been refuted. Logic breaks down. Emotion takes over. A kind of desperation sets in. This is the critical moment. When someone realizes his argument is lost will he stop arguing or flail away? If you are winning an argument and see flailing the chances are nothing will be accomplished. This is when reason ends and shouting begins. I think we might be closing in on that point in this thread. The repetition is there. You can win the argument, but if you do not win the person what have you won? Both sides should vow to maintain good will. This matters more in terms of gaining unity than winning arguments.

 

[guanophore]

One of our biggest challenges as Catholics is destroying this either/or fallacy that non-Catholics inevitably pose.

Any ideas on how to best explain that salvation through the Church IS salvation through Christ? I could probably come up with some stuff, but my eyes are tired right this second. :hypno:

I think one method is to focus on the lack of distinction between Christ and His Body, the Church. One place this is very clear is in Acts, where

Acts 8:2-3
3 But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison.

Later, when he tells the story, it is clear that Jesus is 100% identified with His Body, the Church.

Acts 9:5
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting”

Acts 22:7-8
7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? 8 And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.’

This and the point that Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH, not churches. We are all members of the one church, if we are members of the Body of Christ. Some of them might not be happy to learn they are members of the Catholic Church, however imperfectly joined!

 

[guanophore]

Did Paul preach “the church” or Christ?1 Cor. 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but the preach the gospel…”

1 Cor. 1:23 “But we preach Christ (Messiah) crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness”

1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

1 Cor 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.Looks like the job of the church is to preach Christ and Him crucified for salvation, not itself. One could ask the same question of “the church” that Paul asked of himself in 1 Cor. 1:13: "The church was not crucified for you, was it?"

There is no distinction in scripture between Christ and His Church. When Paul is persecuting the Church, Jesus appears to him and says “it is Jesus who you are persecuting”. Yes, it was Christ that died for our sins, and he founded a Church whereby we can live out the fruits of His labor. The two are not meant to be separated, just like the works that befit repentance are not to be separated from the repentance and faith that results in justification by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

That being said, I have another questions I have been wanting to ask you on this topic.

1. Do you agree that all the passages in the NT that speak of judgement are based on one’s deeds?

Only in that the “deeds” themselves are being judged (appraised). The believer himself “does not come into judgment (unto condemnation), but has passed out of death into life (eternal)” (John 5:24).

1. What are the “works” in Sardis that are imperfect?

The text doesn’t say. But it does emphatically state that there were those in the church at Sardis that though they had a “name” (reputation) of being “alive” were actually “dead.” So obviously though there were “works” that looked to others that they were alive, they hadn’t truly believed unto salvation.

1. How can someone’s name be “blotted out” of the Book of Life if it was not written there to in the first place, and if a name can be “blotted out” do you contend that this is a person who was never saved in the first place? If so, why did Jesus write their name in the Book of Life? I do not know how the OSAS folks understand this passage. Perhaps you can help?

Jesus says this to the overcomers 1 John 5:4 "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.Not our works. It’s actually a statement of assurance. He “will not” erase their names from the book. Still addressed to those who are of true faith.

Do you believe that people who have never heard the gospel can be saved?

Why do you ask me this question? Am I God?Deut. 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever,"What I know for sure is that to whom the Gospel of grace has been revealed, those who believe “have eternal life;” those who do not believe “have been judged already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (see Jn. 3:16-18).

Since nothing unclean can enter heaven, how do you explain that Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven? If they were in sin, how did they get “clean”?

The same way ALL believers did - the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ. We’ve discussed this before where I referenced you to Rom. 3:25. Water cannot do what the Spirit does. The Holy Spirit regenerates the one who believes, whether he is dunked in water or not. I don’t doubt that many, if not all, of the “dead” in the church of Sardis were water baptized.

If following the commandments is not salvific, why did Christ say it was?

He didn’t. Plus Christ didn’t preach the “gospel of grace.” He preached the gospel (good news) that of the kingdom was “at hand,” and pointed to Himself as the object of faith and source of eternal life. But the gospel of “grace” was not preached until AFTER the cross by those who witnessed His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection (see Rom. 4:25 - 5:2).

At the time, Peter was not referring to the moral law, but to the levitical law. The levitical law is ended in Christ, the moral law fulfilled.

As I wrote previously, G., there is no such as the “levitical law.” Nor are the 10 Commandments separately called the “moral Law.” Both make up the Mosaic Law which ended at the cross (Rom. 10:4).

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

Hmm. I would say His sacrifice made us able to participate in salvation, whereas before grace, we cannot. Man is not passive, but participant.

Which is “another gospel.” The saved participate in the divine nature (Holy Spirit regeneration)2 Pet 1:4 "For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them (the granted promises) you may become partakers of {the} divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.“Peter previously states that the promises are granted according to FAITH:2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, (how?) by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

Christ’s work was done, but ours was not. If it were, the end of the world would have come, and all those predestined would have gone immediately to heaven. Instead, He left a Church, and instructions, so that we could do our part of the work.

Not “the work” of salvation. In His High Priestly prayer to the Father He explains:John 17:14-21 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil {one.} They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, {are} in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."You see, G., He has a method to all this madness.

Certainly, but people have their part. Christ’s sacrifice was complete and efficacious, but each has to choose to participate in it.

No, they’re given a choice to BELIEVE in it or not. The word concerning Christ and salvation is propositional.

This is Catholic teaching. However Catholic teaching does not separate justification from sanctification and glorification. Catholics consider all these a seamless garment. Reformed theology has torn the garment into parts, separating the sanctified life from saviing faith.

Theologically they’re different (you should study each separately - you’d be amazed). But, yes, in respect to the “saved by grace through faith” they are “a seamless garment” in which all believers are clothed. And it’s God who provides the garments as a gift. It’s all a part of the eternal life they’re gifted.

Originally Posted by apophasis: Works do play a part “in” salvation (“created in Christ Jesus FOR good works…”) but not “for” salvation.

Guanophore: I think we are in agreement on this point.

If we’re in agreement then you no longer consider salvation to be “a process.” But if you do, then sadly, what I said went right over your head.