What must one do to be saved?

[apophasis]

guanophore:

Yes, and when we are “in Christ”, we are to fulfill the Law in the same way that He did.

1]We’re not required to fulfill that which already was by Another. (2) We’re not required to fulfill today that which ended two thousand years ago. You’re preaching another “gospel,” G: Salvation through law obedience.

Do you think Jesus does not expect us to follow the ten commandments?

Absolutely! Those commandments belonged to the Law of Moses and have not been in operation for two thousand years. They served their purpose for their allotted time. Keep in mind, they’re based on the principle of law. Paul, as a Jew, writes:Gal 3:23 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under law (no definite article, i.e., the principle of), being shut up to the faith (definite article, a specific faith) which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law (definite article, i.e., The Mosaic Law - which included the ten commandments) has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith (“the faith” which results in salvation that has now come).Christ, as a Man, born a Jew, fulfilled the Law and God now approaches all men (Jew and Gentile alike) with salvation on a completely different principle than law: FAITH. Personal faith (belief) in what He sent the Son to do on our behalf. And on that basis alone (faith), He saves according to His infinite grace.Jo. 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."The Law (especially the 10 commandments) revealed and defined sin. The blood of Christ cleanses the believer from ALL sins.

Gal. 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law (no definite article, i.e., the principle of law observance

Indeed, and that salvation infuses humans with the grace to comply with the Law in a way that those prior to Pentecost did not have.

Believers are not “infused” with grace, God Himself saves them by grace (unmerited, divine favor) through faith. True believers are not required to comply with a covenant (of Law) that was fulfilled and ended two thousand years ago. The believer is saved (by grace through faith) under a completely new covenant.

I think we are in agreement on this point. My only point is that the obedience of faith enables a person to fulfill the Law, just as Christ did, by grace, through faith.

We’re not in agreement at all. We’re presenting two entirely different gospels. The “obedience of faith” has nothing to do with enabling a person to fulfill the Law. Now if you want to fulfill the purpose of the Law, then through the Law acknowledge your utter sinfulness and then by faith humbly turn to Christ for salvation (see Rom. 7:7-25).

It is just semantics, Apo. Catholicism teaches that sanctification is part of the salvific process that begins with justification and regeneration, and ends in glorification. Reformed theologians separate them from each other, but the nature of what happens is no different.

It’s not semantics, G. There’s a vast difference between the words “gift” and “process.” The saved through faith, being now in Christ, are forever justified and sanctified in Him, and will be glorified like Him. Not a process, but a done-deal, all according to divine grace.​

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

On the contrary, Jesus taught us that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. This is the greatest reflection of appreciation for his sacrifice, to leave a life worthy of our call.

Absolutely. But He is not teaching us how one is saved here.

I believe that the two cannot be separated. The Apostolic teaching is that Jesus died for ALL, not a certain collection of persons.

I agree. I don’t accept the doctrine of “limited atonement.”

However, not ALL apply His saving grace to themselves.

I think more accurately, not all believe. Men can not and do not “apply” saving grace to themselves. Men receive “the abundance of grace” through faith in Christ:Rom 5:17 “For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.”

Some reject Him, and there fore, do not cooperate with His grace unto salvation.

Salvation is gifted upon belief, it’s not a cooperative process on man’s part.

Catholicism teaches that humans are made in the image and likeness of God, and that means we have a choice.

You have a choice. You may believe or not believe the message concerning Christ. And that message does not involve a process, but the gift of salvation bestowed according to God’s riches in Christ Jesus: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved…” The idea of a salvation “process” stems from unbelief. A refusal to believe the message that God has the power to save forever based solely on the sacrificial work of His beloved Son.

The work of the cross is completely sufficient and effectual. Whether or not that saving grace is applied to a person is dependent upon that individual.

Yes, upon belief by that individual. At the time of personal belief in Christ the believer is gifted salvation (Eph. 2:8-9), righteousness (Rom. 5:17), justification (Rom. 3:24) and eternal life (Rom. 6:23). This is the “abundance of grace” one receives from God upon true belief in the sacrificial work of His Son on their behalf.

I have no arguement with this. Jesus teaches us that we are to believe. He calls this a “work” of God. God’s grace enables us toward faith, then we CHOOSE to believe. Through that faith, by grace, we are saved. Our salvation is made evident when we walk in the good works God created before hand that we should walk in them. The events are not separate from each other.

The events are as separate as showing up to an interview for a job, and then having been hired, showing up to do the job. For the latter to occur a complete change of status and identity had to take place. However, unlike RC’ism, there’s no probation period attached to this job. It’s eternal (Jn. 3:15-18, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 10:25-29.

For the most part, I have to agree with this. Then there is that becoming a new creation daily.

Scripture does not teach a “daily” creation any more than it teaches a new creation each morning we awake. Once saved through faith the believer is immediately a new creation in Christ Jesus, having died and raised to new life with Him (Rom. 6). No longer in Adam the first, but raised to new life with/in the “last Adam” - a whole new identity in Christ. It’s how God sees the believer “in Christ,” now and for all eternity.2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."It’s not a daily occurrence any more than the death and bodily resurrection of Christ is a daily occurrence.

 

[apophasis]

MariaG:

And Catholics do not think it is the fruit that saves them.

Sure they do. That’s why no Catholic believes he can truly know if he’s saved until the end of his life.

But when a Catholic Christian says “works” they are usually meaning what you would call “fruit”.

How do you know what I call fruit?

And while a person can certainly “do” all the right things for the wrong reasons, trying to earn their way to heaven, it is not the teaching of the Catholic church that one can earn their way to heaven throught any “works” or “fruit”.

The word “merit” is found nowhere in the N.T. But it is a very familiar word in “Catholic” soteriology.

One of the reasons that Catholics reject the term “faith alone” is because according to the definition of the Catholic Church, Faith is the intellectual acceptance of God.

If the “Catholic” church defines faith as “the intellectual acceptance of God,” then the “Catholic” church does not know what salvation faith is.

But we both know that even the devil believes.

The fact that you wrote this sentence testifies to the fact that you do not know what “faith” in respect to salvation means. If you did you could never make such a statement concerning the devil (or his angels).

What most non-Catholics refer to as “faith alone” would be defined as Faith, hope and Charity by the Catholic church.

I know. Which translates to faith plus _ _ _ _ _ _ (you fill in the blanks). But based on what you’ve written here the “Catholic” church has yet to understand (Biblically) what faith actually means.

 

[MariaG]

Sure they do. That’s why no Catholic believes he can truly know if he’s saved until the end of his life.

No, we believe one cannot truly know because scripture tells us this. But since you are “sure”, please quote to me where Catholics teach that one is saved by works.

How do you know what I call fruit?

And why are you so defensive and trying to pick a fight?

ALL the non-Catholic Churches I attended and MOST every Christian I have met on these forums believe that what Catholics define as “works”, is the same as “fruit”. Fruit or works are things that are done, only through the grace of God so no man can brag about them.

But apparently you have a different definition of fruit:shrug:

The word “merit” is found nowhere in the N.T. But it is a very familiar word in “Catholic” soteriology.

And? The word Trinity is found nowhere in the N.T. but it is also a very familar word in all Christianity.

If the “Catholic” church defines faith as “the intellectual acceptance of God,” then the “Catholic” church does not know what salvation faith is

I cannot help it if the rest of the Christian world choose to redefine over 1500 years of definitions, definitions that securely rest in scripture.

In James 2, it states that one is not justified by faith alone. Most non-Catholic Christians get around this by using qualifiers live a True faith or dead faith. Catholics just use the word faith as scripture does and choose not to deny the biblical truth that since one is not justified by faith alone, faith in and of itself, cannot justify a person.

But again, if you choose to follow those who have come along teaching falsely, I cannot stop you from choosing to do so, thereby changing the defintions that Christians used for over 1500 years.

The fact that you wrote this sentence testifies to the fact that you do not know what “faith” in respect to salvation means. If you did you could never make such a statement concerning the devil (or his angels).I know.

The fact that you make this statement shows that you truly do not even care what the Catholic Church teaches or read what I have written, or looked at any of the links.

Again, good article for those who wish to actually understand this issue and not just pick a fight is the one by James Akin Justification by Faith Alone.

by James Akin, Justification by Faith Alone
Protestant idea of faith = Catholic idea of faith + Catholic idea of hope + Catholic idea of charity****

**

**

Which translates to faith plus _ _ _ _ _ _ (you fill in the blanks). But based on what you’ve written here the “Catholic” church has yet to understand (Biblically) what faith actually means

No. You are quite wrong.

 

[guanophore]

1]We’re not required to fulfill that which already was by Another. (2) We’re not required to fulfill today that which ended two thousand years ago. You’re preaching another “gospel,” G: Salvation through law obedience.

You misunderstand me, apo. I am not saying that someone can be saved by obedience to the OT Mosaic law. People are saved by obedience to the Law of Love. When we love God with our whole heart, mind, soul and strenght, and love our neighbor as ourselves, we fulfill the whole law. This mankind cannot do apart from God’s grace. When Jesus came, he freed us from slavery to sin, and gave us His Spirit, by which we are able through His grace, to walk in the works he has prepared for us.

Absolutely!  Those commandments belonged to the Law of Moses and have not been in operation for two thousand years.

This is not the teaching we have received from the Apostles. Jesus did not set aside the ten commandments. In fact, he taught and practiced them all His life. He taught His Apostles how to follow them, (by grace, through faith). Perhaps they do not operate in the Reformed traditions, but they do in the Apostolic faiths.

They served their purpose for their allotted time. Keep in mind, they’re based on the principle of law.

The 10 commandments are based upon the Love of God. They are designed to lead us to life and purity before God. However, mankind is unable to keep them under his own power, and so it was necessary for Jesus to show us a more excellent way.

Paul, as a Jew, writes:Gal 3:23 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under law (no definite article, i.e., the principle of), being shut up to the faith (definite article, a specific faith) which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law (definite article, i.e., The Mosaic Law - which included the ten commandments) has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith (“the faith” which results in salvation that has now come).

Faith has always been the basis for justification, in the old covenant, and the New. In fulfilling the law, Jesus did not set it aside. He became our sin offering, once for all time.

Christ, as a Man, born a Jew, fulfilled the Law and God now approaches all men (Jew and Gentile alike) with salvation on a completely different principle than law: FAITH. Personal faith (belief) in what He sent the Son to do on our behalf. And on that basis alone (faith), He saves according to His infinite grace.Jo. 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

I can show you one of your own posts that most excellently demonstrated that salvation has always been based on grace, through faith. This principle has never changed. Perhaps the means by which we access that grace. We no longer follow the ordinances given to the Jews, but the substance of how God wants us to live has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that He has written the law on our hearts, and we now obey through the power of the indwelling HS.

 

[guanophore]

The Law (especially the 10 commandments) revealed and defined sin.  The blood of Christ cleanses the believer from ALL sins.**Gal. 2:21** "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law (no definite article, i.e., *the principle of law observance*

Righteousness comes through grace, by faith. The ability to follow God’s law comes through the indwelling power of the HS.
apophasis;2910013:

Believers are not "*infused*

" with grace, God Himself saves them by grace (unmerited, divine favor) through faith.

Both things are true. But perhaps we should start another thread on infused grace?

True believers are not required to comply with a covenant (of Law) that was fulfilled and ended two thousand years ago.

We are called to the obedience of Love. When we have done all that is commanded, we say “we are unworthy servants”. It is out of gratitude for what He has done for us that we are compelled to follow the commandments.

The believer is saved (by grace through faith

) under a completely new covenant.We’re not in agreement at all.

I think we are. I agree that we are saved by grace, through faith. But finish the verse! We are saved so that we can do the works that God has prepared for us.

We’re presenting two entirely different gospels. The "obedience of faith

" has nothing to do with enabling a person to fulfill the Law.

I think it is just a semantics problem. I think they are the same thing.

Now if you want to fulfill the purpose

of the Law, then through the Law acknowledge your utter sinfulness and then by faith humbly turn to Christ for salvation (see Rom. 7:7-25).It’s not semantics, G. There’s a vast difference between the words “gift” and “process.” The saved through faith, being now in Christ, are forever justified and sanctified in Him, and will be glorified like Him. Not a process, but a done-deal, all according to divine grace.

No, there is no difference between the “gift” and the “process”. The only difference is that you adhere to the concept that the “gift” occurs once and for all, forever, at one point in time. Whereas, the Apostolic faith teaches that this “gift” progresses from the moment of justification to the arrival at glorification.

 

[guanophore]

Absolutely. But He is not teaching us how one is saved here.

Are you saying that being “in Christ” has nothing to do with being saved?

"I think more accurately, not all believe. Men can not and do not “apply” saving grace to themselves. Men receive “the abundance of grace” through faith in Christ:

Semantics, again. One cannot access the poured out grace without faith. Making an act of faith is what applies the grace. I think you assert that it is passive, where the Apostles teach us that it is a personal choice to receive the grace.

Salvation is gifted upon belief, it’s not a cooperative process on man’s part.

Are you saying that faith is not a quality of humanity?

You have a choice. You may believe or not believe the message concerning Christ.

Well, at least we agree about something!

And that message does not involve a process,

Well, speak for yourself! For many people, it does take years!

but the gift of salvation bestowed according to God’s riches in Christ Jesus: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved…” The idea of a salvation “process” stems from unbelief.

It seems this way to you because you are looking through the lens of Reformed Soteriology. The first hope is need be no less powerful than the last. In fact, I would say that one cannot persevere at all without faith.

A refusal to believe the message that God has the power to save forever based solely on the sacrificial work of His beloved Son.

No, this is an erroneous conclusion based upon an erroneous foundation. there is no salvation at all outside the sacrificial work of Christ. This does not change at all between initial justification and glorification.

Yes, upon belief by that individual. At the time of personal belief in Christ the believer is gifted salvation (Eph. 2:8-9), righteousness (Rom. 5:17), justification (Rom. 3:24) and eternal life (Rom. 6:23). This is the “abundance of grace” one receives from God upon true belief in the sacrificial work of His Son on their behalf.The events are as separate as showing up to an interview for a job, and then having been hired, showing up to do the job.

No, because a person who interviews does not necessarily get the job. Once a person accepts the job, though, the expectation is that one will show up for work, then complete all the tasks assigned for the length of the employment. One can always point back and see their start date.

For the latter to occur a complete change of status and identity had to take place. However, unlike RC’ism, there’s no probation period attached to this job.

I agree on the change of status and identity. However, the notion of probation does not apply here.

It’s eternal (Jn. 3:15-18, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 10:25-29.Scripture does not teach a “daily” creation any more than it teaches a new creation each morning we awake.

" And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."2 Cor 3:17-18

You will have to help me out with this passage,t hen, because it sure seems to me that we are being changed daily into a new creation.

2 Cor 3:17-18 2 Cor 5:17 “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.”[/indent]It’s not a daily occurrence any more than the death and bodily resurrection of Christ is a daily occurrence.

Actually this is what we celebrate at Mass daily, the death and bodily resurrection of the Lord. By entering thus into the mystery, we are daily able to place oursleves at the foot of the cross. His timeless sacrifice can be experienced daily.

What does the Apostle mean?

1 Cor 15:31
I die every day!

 

[guanophore]

The word “merit” is found nowhere in the N.T. But it is a very familiar word in “Catholic” soteriology.

There are three main reasons for this. The first and formost is just language. You are not using Latin as a source, but Greek. Second, the Reformers carefully edited the scripture to avoid any reference to catholic theology. This also contains the rejection of The Apostolic Traditions. Lastly, Catholic soteriology, because it is derived from the teachings of the Jesus and the Apostles, is not separated out into distinct parts. There is no division between justification, sanctification, and glorification. All are seen as “being saved”.

In reformed theology, these are separated out from each other, and therefore sanctification, which does involve merit, is removed from the foundation of justification one which it stands.

Which translates to faith plus _ _ _ _ _ _ (you fill in the blanks).

I think it would be more accurate to say faith THAT works. Faith that does not express itself in deeds worthy of repentance is not a saving faith. Surely you will agree on that!

the “Catholic” church has yet to understand (Biblically) what faith actually means.

This is silly. the Catholic Church wrote the NT. OF course she knows what it means!

 

[apophasis]

MaryG:

No, we believe one cannot truly know because scripture tells us this. But since you are “sure”, please quote to me where Catholics teach that one is saved by works.

Council of Trent Sixth Session, Chapter XVI, on the fruits of justification:"to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits – "nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life."Now you’ll respond with, "You don’t understand Catholic teaching.

And why are you so defensive and trying to pick a fight?

Why would you think I’m trying to pick a fight by my response? I only asked you how you know what I believe without first inquiring.

But apparently you have a different definition of fruit

Fruit is derived and produced in the believer through the Spirit who indwells him and by Whom the believer is to walk (Gal. 5:16; cf. vss. 22-23, 25). Works, OTOH, are those deeds done by the believer in their present, yet unredeemed body, which will either be rewarded or not rewarded at the future judgment seat of Christ (see 2 Cor. 5:19; 1 Cor. 3:11-15). Said works neither add nor subtract from the believer’s salvation since it is God Himself who saves according to His infinite grace through faith in Christ - not our works.

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

You misunderstand me, apo. I am not saying that someone can be saved by obedience to the OT Mosaic law.

You surely are if you say men are saved through obedience to the Ten Commandments (what you define as God’s “moral Law”).

People are saved by obedience to the Law of Love.

Rom. 13:10 says: “Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of law.” Love is the fulfillment of law but law is not the basis (or means) of salvation since divine salvation is not based on law:“For by grace you have been saved through faith…”
“Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved…”
(Eph. 2:8; Acts 16:31).

When we love God with our whole heart, mind, soul and strenght, and love our neighbor as ourselves, we fulfill the whole law.

(1) This was an answer by Jesus in response to a question by a Jewish lawyer (an expert in the Mosaic Law), who, as a Jew, was bound to that covenant of Law as a rule of life (Matt. 22:34-40. (2) The lawyer, in context, was not asking how to be saved. (3) The Man Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses which, as a covenant. ended at the cross. (4) This side of the cross no man, Jew or Gentile, is under the covenant of Law. 5) Men cannot be saved by loving God or his neighbor, since no man can do these perfectly. (6) Hence, God Himself saves the sinner on a principle other than law: GRACE through personal FAITH in Christ Jsus.

This mankind cannot do apart from God’s grace.

This mankind is not even expected to do for salvation.

When Jesus came, he freed us from slavery to sin, and gave us His Spirit, by which we are able through His grace, to walk in the works he has prepared for us.

It is those who are already saved by God’s grace, through faith, that are now “His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus” for the works He prepared for them to walk (Eph. 2:8-10). Verse 10 of Ephesians chapter two is not the means of salvation. The means is described in the previous two verses: “…by grace through faith…a GIFT of God; not as a result of works…”

This is not the teaching we have received from the Apostles. Jesus did not set aside the ten commandments. In fact, he taught and practiced them all His life.

Jesus was born a Jew, born under the Law (Gal. 4:4). All Jews (even Jesus) were bound to the Law as a rule of life. But the One who fulfilled the Law is Himself the One through whom the Law ended:Rom. 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness for everyone who BELIEVES.”

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

The 10 commandments are based upon the Love of God. They are designed to lead us to life and purity before God.

No they’re not. They’re part of the Law of Moses and are called a ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7, 9). The Apostles were servants of a NEW covenant inaugurated in Christ’s sacrificial blood.2 Cor 3:6 "…who also made us adequate {as} servants of a new covenant, not of the letter (the Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter (the Law) kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Cor 3:7-12 "But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones (the 10 Commandments), came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading {as} it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses {it.} For if that which fades away {was} with glory, much more that which remains {is} in glory. Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in {our} speech,

However, mankind is unable to keep them under his own power, and so it was necessary for Jesus to show us a more excellent way.

Jesus didn’t “show,” He provided a more excellent way through His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection. A salvation based on grace through faith alone.

I can show you one of your own posts that most excellently demonstrated that salvation has always been based on grace, through faith. This principle has never changed. Perhaps the means by which we access that grace. We no longer follow the ordinances given to the Jews, but the substance of how God wants us to live has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that He has written the law on our hearts, and we now obey through the power of the indwelling HS.

It is true salvation has always been based on grace through faith, but the rule of life prior to the cross by which the faithful Jew approached the God of Abraham was the LAW contained in ordinances, commandments and sacrifices (Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Covenant). But the Law itself was not of faith, i.e., not faith basedGal. 3:10-12 "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by law (the principle of, no definite article) before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith (i.e., faith based); on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them."The law “written on our hearts” is not God giving us the ability (power) to keep the Law (the Law could only condemn) for salvation, but through spiritual regeneration the believer now has a new desire to serve the living God. This occurs only after one, by faith, turns to Christ for salvation.Gal 3:23-26 "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. "Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (i.e., the Law). For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.“The object of the faith” which has now been revealed is the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved…” IActs 16:31).

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

I agree that we are saved by grace, through faith. But finish the verse! We are saved so that we can do the works that God has prepared for us.

But don’t add to the verse, G. Eph. 2:10 does not say those works are law oriented. In fact it doesn’t refer to “works of law” at all. Eph. 2:8-10 was written to Gentile readers who never were under the covenant of Law. Paul goes on to say that the “enmity” and “dividing wall” between Jews and Gentiles was “the law of commandments contained in ordinances” which was abolished. And now, during this church age, both Jews and Gentiles are reconciled to God in one body “through the cross.”

We are called to the obedience of Love.

You’re not saved by your obedience, but by His. Even His obedience to death on a cross.

When we have done all that is commanded, we say “we are unworthy servants”.

When you finally realize you can do nothing, then by faith turn to Christ and He will save you according to the power of His sovereign grace through Christ Jesus.

It is out of gratitude for what He has done for us that we are compelled to follow the commandments.

What He has done for us is send His Son to die in our stead. It is the ingrate who refuses to believe but instead turns to law (in all its religious forms) for righteousness.

Are you saying that being “in Christ” has nothing to do with being saved?

No! I am saying only the saved are now “in Christ.” The believer does not pop in and out of Christ (the “last Adam”) any more than the unbeliever pops in and out of Adam. “In Christ” is the believer’s new, eternal identity.

Making an act of faith is what applies the grace.

Rather, it’s through personal faith in Christ Jesus that God gifts salvation, justification and eternal life according to sovereign grace.

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."2 Cor 3:17-18

You will have to help me out with this passage, then, because it sure seems to me that we are being changed daily into a new creation.

You take it out of context. The “we all, with unveiled face” is speaking of saved believers. Paul goes on to say regarding the unbeliever:2 Cor 4:3-5 “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake.”

What does the Apostle mean? 1 Cor 15:31 I die every day!

It’s explained right in the context. It pertains, figuratively, to the constant danger he and his companions faced every hour (see vs. 30). His life was always in threat. However, in respect to salvation, Paul taught that he, and all true believers, died with Christ on the cross and are now raised to new life “in Him” (see Rom. 6; Eph. 2:4-7; Col. 3:1-3)

I think it would be more accurate to say faith THAT works. Faith that does not express itself in deeds worthy of repentance is not a saving faith. Surely you will agree on that!

I do not. Because what you’re contending here is not faith in Christ’s sacrificial work for salvation, but merit through your own “worthy” deeds of repentance. A spin gospel.

 

[savedsinner]

Originally Posted by guanophore
The 10 commandments are based upon the Love of God. They are designed to lead us to life and purity before God.

Romans 2:14-15
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them

What about before Moses came down from the mountain with the tablets, could someone kill, worship other God’s, commit adultry, or steal?

No you couldn’t because they against the natural law which is written in our hearts.
The 10 commandments contains the Natural law, but it is not totally based upon it, (because the Non-Jews were not required to worship on the sabbath).

Even though we are saved by faith apart from works of the law, that doesn’t mean that we don’t have to follow the natural law of God. That is still in force, and it can affect your salvation if you break it. But keep in mind, it is only by God’s Grace that we can follow the natural law.

Romans 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Hebrews 13:4
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for God will judge the immoral and adulterous.

 

[apophasis]

Romans 2:14-15
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them

Paul is not describing how one gets saved here.

What about before Moses came down from the mountain with the tablets, could someone kill, worship other God’s, commit adultry, or steal?

From Adam to Moses, did men not die? Yes. They died without the Law. Why? Because, as Paul teaches, “all sinned” (in Adam, see Rom. 5:12, 14).

No you couldn’t because they against the natural law which is written in our hearts.

You mean conscience? Conscience convicts you of sin, not righteousness. ALL Gentiles know within themselves they’ve sinned, they’re sinners. As does the self-righteous religious Jew. Which is what Paul is driving at in Romans chapters one to three. ALL are in need of divine GRACE:Rom 3:23-24 "…for all sinned (in Adam) and (are continually) falling short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;Notice Paul does not teach either conscience (a “law” unto themselves) or the Mosaic Law as the means for justification, but instead “through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” Elsewhere he teaches:Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law (the principle of, no definite article: ) then Christ died needlessly.“No law, either the “law” of conscience or a covenant of Law can save anyone. Law can only condemn and convict of sin. It cannot save, redeem or justify a sinner. Hence, "what must one do to be saved?” That question was asked 2000 years ago and the answer was provided immediately (see Acts 16:30-31).

The 10 commandments contains the Natural law, but it is not totally based upon it, (because the Non-Jews were not required to worship on the sabbath).

But they still have no power to save, redeem or justify the one who breaks them. That’s why they’re called a ministry of “death” and “condemnation” (2 Cor. 3:6-11). And even Peter called it “a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear” (Acts 15:10). Teaching instead:Acts 15:9 “…and He made no distinction between us (Jews, who had the Law) and them (Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by faith.”

Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we (Jews) are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they (Gentiles) also are."There you have it, my friend. Pure, unadulterated Apostolic teaching on “what one must do to be saved.” The O.P. has his answer.

Even though we are saved by faith apart from works of the law, that doesn’t mean that we don’t have to follow the natural law of God. That is still in force, and it can affect your salvation if you break it. But keep in mind, it is only by God’s Grace that we can follow the natural law.

In your unbelief you teach contrary to the Apostolic message:Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law (any law, “natural” or written), then Christ died needlessly."How long will you continue to deny Apostolic teaching?

Romans 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Hebrews 13:4
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for God will judge the immoral and adulterous.

A testimony to the fact that Christ did not die needlessly. His blood cleanses us from all sins.

 

[savedsinner]

" The O.P. has his answer.In your unbelief you teach contrary to the Apostolic message:Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through law (any law, “natural” or written), then Christ died needlessly."How long will you continue to deny Apostolic teaching?A testimony to the fact that Christ did not die needlessly. His blood cleanses us from all sins.

I don’t think that you are grasping what I am saying here.
I am not saying that we can earn our salvation through works as if they are due to us as a wage for our works.
That would nullify the sacrifice of Christ.

We are saved by God’s grace, it is a gift, we can not earn it.
The works we do are by the grace of God, we can’t do them on our own.
It is by Chirst’s shed blood that makes this all possible for us.

It is God’s grace that leads us to repentence, it is God’s grace that allows us to do the works which please him.

Think of it this way.
Paul tells us that we can’t earn salvation through works, that is, God doesn’t owe us a wage, like he is our employer and we think that by our works he is obligated to pay us.

It is more like God tells us that if we do work for him after hours, off the clock, he will pay us. He is not obligated to pay us, but because of his honor, and honesty, he will pay us, because he gave us his word.

So even though we can’t do the works to please God under our own power, that doesn’t meant works don’t play a part in our salvation.

We need the works to accompany our faith. Again, these works are not of our own power or doing, they are done because of the Grace of God, and because of his promise, he will reward us for them.

But don’t be fooled, we will be judged by God by our works.
God is a righteous God after all.

Romans 2:3-11
Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. **For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. ** There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

 

[grandfather]

Scripture tells us in many places that it is God who saves us and we can do nothing to save ourselves. It is His grace alone by and through which we are saved. Scripture also tells us that we must do certain things to be saved, or damned for that matter. The rich young man asks Jesus what must HE DO (works) and Jesus tells him to KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. When Jesus tells one group to depart from Him and another to come to HIm they both ask why. One group clothed, fed, visited, comforted Him and the other did not. They are saved or damned for what they DID or DID NOT DO. Scripture speaks of salvation as being a reward.

So we go round and round about grace and works, quoting scripture to support our grace OR works arguements. Our small minds can not grasp how God alone saves us if there is something we have to do to be saved. By the way, having faith, belieiving is DOING something. It is something I must do (a work), believe.

We live in a world of finites. We can measure and divide in this physical world and see everything in those terms. What we are trying to do is figure out the spiritual cause of a thing, salvation. No one is doing something bad, or with evil intent, trying to cause harm. All are of honest and good intentions, so there is no cause to get angry. We are trying to attribute a cause to a thing we believe lies ahead, heaven or hell, eternity. Maybe this analogy will help. Say a person has a cold with a sore throat, fever and pain. The cause is an infection. It might be a bacterial infection, or it might be caused by a virus, or it might be caused by both. If it were caused by both, the pain and fever might be caused 90% by the virus and 10 by the bacteria, or vice verse, or 50-50. We can make such attributions in this finite world. The tide and the wind can be pushing my boat. Each might be responsible for 50% of the movement. This is how we see causation in the physical world and we try to apply this experience to spiritual realities such as salvataion. It does not work.

But using this understanding, if salvation is caused all by God or God’s grace, then we can have nothing to do with it. Scripture however, tells us that it is caused by God’s grace AND we have to do things. See the examples above, but there are many others. How can this be? Isn’t it a contradiction to say sometihng can be 100% caused by A and B also contributed causually? It is in this world of limitation where everything is divisible.

God can do nothing, not only save us, but nothing, of which He does not do 100%. He made everything that is and nothing is made that He did not make. He did not create 99.999999% of the universe and leave .0000001% for us to finish. He did not provide for most of our salvation and leave something missing for us to do. On the other hand we participate with Him in His work. In one of HIs greatest gifts to mankind, a man and a woman join with God in the creation of a being with an immortal soul. The being, the child, would not exist without the praticipation of the humans. Who made the child? Did the man and the woman make the child out of their own being? Yes! Did they make the soul of the child? No! Did God make the child? Yes! He willed it. Did the man and the woman do 5 or 50% of this work and God the rest? No, God did it all. How is it possible that God did it all and the man and the woman participated in the creation of a being with an immortal soul? Clearly the humans, created beings, participate and cooperate in what they DO, in the work of creation of an immortal person. This is undeniable. Now substitute the word save or justify with the word create. Salvation is the gift (grace) of God alone, but it is impossible without our participation and cooperation in what we DO, which we do by grace. So all is grace.

Finally, faith is passed on in many ways. It is passed from person to person and generation to generation. Let’s say some preacher preaches the gospel message and a person hears him and believes. Faith enters the hearer’s ears and penetrates to the heart and he ends up in heaven. Did God save the person? Yes! Did the preacher save the person? Yes! Was it 50-50? No! God did 100% of it, but He did it through the preacher, as well as the person who converted the preacher, going all the way back to St. Paul’s writings, and Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and all the generations who handed faith and truth on. God is the sole cause of salvation, but He works through second causes, us. We cooperate and participate. Both are true then. God saves us and we have work to do.

 

[apophasis]

I don’t think that you are grasping what I am saying here.

I completely grasp what you are saying, SS.

I am not saying that we can earn our salvation through works as if they are due to us as a wage for our works.
That would nullify the sacrifice of Christ.

And yet that is exactly what you’re saying when you say God bases salvation on any work other than the finished work of Christ on the cross.

We are saved by God’s grace, it is a gift, we can not earn it.

Amen!

The works we do are by the grace of God, we can’t do them on our own. It is by Chirst’s shed blood that makes this all possible for us.

Christ was not sacrificed that we might do works as a part (a process) of our salvation. His finished, sacrificial work on the cross was a work of redemption and reconciliation toward men, and propitiation toward God. No more “work” was needed for God to then save a sinner “by grace through faith.”

It is God’s grace that leads us to repentence,

It is God’s sovereign grace that saves a repentant sinner who believes the word concerning Christ’s substitutionary, sacrificial work on his behalf.

it is God’s grace that allows us to do the works which please him.

But those pleasing works are not the basis on which God saves a believer.

Think of it this way.
Paul tells us that we can’t earn salvation through works, that is, God doesn’t owe us a wage, like he is our employer and we think that by our works he is obligated to pay us.

It is more like God tells us that if we do work for him after hours, off the clock, he will pay us. He is not obligated to pay us, but because of his honor, and honesty, he will pay us, because he gave us his word.

No matter what kind of spin you put on it, SS, you’re preaching salvation by works. During hours or after hours, what’s the difference? You’re still earning it. You’re basing salvation on your works, whether God gives you the grace to do them or not. God saves based on Christ’s finished work alone. That’s why it’s “by grace through faith.” That’s why it’s gifted.

So even though we can’t do the works to please God under our own power, that doesn’t mean works don’t play a part in our salvation.

But God does not save based on those works. He saves “by grace through faith.”

Works do play a part “in” salvation ("created in Christ Jesus FOR good works…") but not “for” salvation:Eph 2:4-9 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, (1)made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (2) and raised us up with Him, (3) and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, (4) so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

For by grace you have been (observe, not a process) saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works (any “works,” only Christ’s for us), so that no one may boast."In the above Paul explicitly describes what salvation BY GRACE through FAITH is. Any works done by us are excluded - even if God empowers us to do them.

We need the works to accompany our faith.

God saves apart from our works - on the clock or off the clock.

Again, these works are not of our own power or doing, they are done because of the Grace of God, and because of his promise, he will reward us for them.

But not “save” us “by” them. Salvation is never a reward: “the gift of God, not as a result of works.” It won’t change, SS, no matter what kind of a spin you put on it.

But don’t be fooled, we will be judged by God by our works.
God is a righteous God after all.

John 3:17-16 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Romans 2:3-11

The context of this verse is Rom. 1:1-2. As I said in my previous post, Paul in Rom. 1-3 is building his case that both pagan Gentiles and self-righteous, religious Jews have sinned and are in need of God’s righteousness through faith in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:22-24).

 

[foundthelight]

Why don’t you define faith as a “Work”? .

 

[foundthelight]

I asked the above because, unless God forces us to have faith, having faith is a conscious decision and action on our part. Just the same as obeying Jesus in being baptised, partaking of the Eucharist and doing good deeds.

 

[apophasis]

grandfather:

Scripture tells us in many places that it is God who saves us and we can do nothing to save ourselves.

Amen!

It is His grace alone by and through which we are saved

It is “by grace” because it is based only on the work of Another - the Man Christ Jesus.

Scripture also tells us that we must do certain things to be saved, or damned for that matter.

Scripture tells us that “all sinned (in Adam, Jew and Gentile) and are (continually) falling short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). One can no more “do certain things” to be damned than he can “do certain things” to be saved.

By the way, having faith, belieiving is DOING something. It is something I must do (a work), believe.

God’s written Word does not define faith as a “work.” “For by grace you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works…” You see, faith is counterpointed with works. The faith that saves is actually passive. It trusts/rests in the work of Another. Not to be confused with the works produced by those who ARE saved.

The rich young man asks Jesus what must HE DO (works) and Jesus tells him to KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

The rich young man was a Jew, bound to the Law. Rather than look to Christ as the source of eternal life (Heb. 5:9), He arrogantly asked what he himself must do to inherit it. And when told, being a Jew under the Law, to keep certain commandments of the Decalogue, he arrogantly replied that he kept them all. But Jesus, knowing him, cut straight to his core problem, prohibiting him from believing in Him for eternal life: His riches. His trust in his riches kept him from believing in Christ, the only source of eternal life.

When Jesus tells one group to depart from Him and another to come to Him they both ask why. One group clothed, fed, visited, comforted Him and the other did not. They are saved or damned for what they DID or DID NOT DO.

You error! The first group had works but did not possess faith in Him. And Jesus responds, “I never knew you, depart from Me” (Matt. 7:23). The second are labeled “sheep” (saved) contrasted with “goats” (non-saved). The “sheep” heard His voice and followed Him (Matt. 25:33; Jn. 10:3-4). “Works” neither saved nor damned either of those two groups. Salvation is always “through faith.”

Scripture speaks of salvation as being a reward.

Never a reward. The valued works of a true believer will be rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:11-15), but his salvation was gifted, “not as a result of works.”

Finally, faith is passed on in many ways. It is passed from person to person and generation to generation. Let’s say some preacher preaches the gospel message and a person hears him and believes. Faith enters the hearer’s ears and penetrates to the heart and he ends up in heaven. Did God save the person? Yes!

I agree! God is the one who saves.

Did the preacher save the person? Yes!

No! I disagree.

Was it 50-50? No! God did 100% of it, but He did it through the preacher, as well as the person who converted the preacher, going all the way back to St. Paul’s writings, and Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and all the generations who handed faith and truth on.

“Truth” (the gospel message of Christ) is “handed on,” but “faith” is not. The “word of reconciliation” (see 2 Cor. 5:19) is passed on to each subsequent generation to be believed on, but those entrusted with this “word” save no one. You’re right, God saves - 100 percent of it! Men can only obediently take to their generation the “message of reconcialiation.” But God does not save by or through those messengers, but God Himself saves “*by *(His) *grace through *(their) faith.” A salvation based only on Christ’s substitutionary, sacrificial work on the cross on our behalf. Like Paul, nor is the messenger himself saved by doing the works of a messenger. Paul too was saved “through faith.”

“Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved…” (Acts. 16:31).