What must one do to be saved?

[apophasis]

I have a little penny catechism that asks, “What must I do to be saved?” The answer it gives is, “In order to be saved I must woship God in faith, hope and love”.

On essential difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Protestants hold that “faith alone” is necessary. Faith and love are not the same thing. They may work together, one leading to the other, but they are different. Can one be saved without the love of God? What does it mean to love God? John writes: “The love of God consists in this; that we keep His commandments”.
Jesus says, “If a man LOVES me He will keep my commands”.
He says to the pharisees that the love of God is not in them and they will die in their sins (without repentance). This is a horrifying thought.

If love of God means keeping His commandments what are His commandments? He gives us two, but they are essentially the same, love God and love neighbor.

So then one is saved by keeping those (essentially the same) two commandments.

There’s a difference as to how one is saved and how the saved are to act. God has revealed to us the basis on which HE saves a sinner (the substitutionary, sacrificial death of His Son), and the means through which He does (personal faith in what the Son has done on our behalf).

Salvation neither begins nor ends with us. We must trust completely in the work of Another. God is the one who saves - we do not nor cannot save ourselves. And that salvation is eternally secure and assured because it’s based completely on the perfect work of Someone other than ourselves.

 

[guanophore]

You present a contradiction (see Gal. 3:23-26).

No. the Levitical law is not the same as moral law. Jesus never set aside the moral law, He just enabled us to keep it by filling us with grace, and putting His spirit within.

This is regeneration. One is not saved through/by regeneration, but it is the saved (by grace through faith in Christ) who are regenerated (made alive by the Spirit).

I think not. I agree with you that the placing of the Spirit within equates to regeneration, but the ability to live a life in compliance with God’s laws is what sanctification is all about.

There are many answers for how one gets saved when the cross of Christ is circumvented. When the substitutionary value of His sacrificial death alone is denied. It’s men who make salvation difficult, not God. Unbelief presents itself in many forms and always misses the mark.

I can’t argue with that!

So then one is saved by keeping those (essentially the same) two commandments.

don’t you agree?

There’s a difference as to how one is saved and how the saved are to act. God has revealed to us the basis on which HE saves a sinner (the substitutionary, sacrificial death of His Son), and the means through which He does (personal faith in what the Son has done on our behalf).

I am not sure that there needs to be a distinction between how one is saved, and how the saved are to act. It is all rooted in saving grace.

Salvation neither begins nor ends with us. We must trust completely in the work of Another. God is the one who saves - we do not nor cannot save ourselves. And that salvation is eternally secure and assured because it’s based completely on the perfect work of Someone other than ourselves.

It is, but He also chose to make us part of that work. He chose to work in, with, and through people, and to create a church to be His Body on earth. He didnt’ have to do it that way.

 

[grandfather]

So then one is saved by keeping those (essentially the same) two commandments.

There’s a difference as to how one is saved and how the saved are to act. God has revealed to us the basis on which HE saves a sinner (the substitutionary, sacrificial death of His Son), and the means through which He does (personal faith in what the Son has done on our behalf).

Salvation neither begins nor ends with us. We must trust completely in the work of Another. God is the one who saves - we do not nor cannot save ourselves. And that salvation is eternally secure and assured because it’s based completely on the perfect work of Someone other than ourselves.

Yes, one is saved by keeping the commandments, but the power to do so is given us by God’s grace. What does Jesus answer to the rich young man who kept all the commandments from birth, but could not give up his wealth to be perfect? Obedience is necessary for salvation. Salvation neither begins nor ends with us, as you say. Both are true. “You call me lord, lord, and that is what I am, but if you do not do what I tell you, what good am I to you?” Our cooperation with grace is necessary. We are able to keep His commandments by grace. We are saved by grace Christ obtained for us. Grace is the power God gives us to love and obey and overcome. “Without me you can do nothing”. Then what can we do WITH Him? We can cooperate with grace. Grace is like soap and water. You can believe in it, that it works in a bath, but if it is not applied you remain dirty. Believing in soap and water, or salvation, is useless unless you take a bath. You can believe that we are saved by Christ’s sacrifice and the grace He obtains for us, but it has to be applied. You know it is applied if you are penitent, love God, turned from sin, obedient. Your conscience tells you whether or not you are in the state of grace or sin. This is the crux of Luther’s error. He said obedience and/or repentance are unnecessary for salvation, but that all one needs to do is have faith in Christ, believe that He is the Son of God who died for our sins and was raised. This is what is behind sola fide. The pharisees studied scripture night and day. Knowledge of it did not help them. They also prayed daily. The things of faith were ever present in their lives and of utmost importance to them. Jesus said they were whited sepluchres, filthy inside. He said the LOVE of God was not in them, that they would die in their disobedience (sins) (go to hell). God not only leads us. We follow. There is a communion established by God, between God and the soul, and in this communion God leads and the soul cooperates and follows. If one believes God saves souls who do not cooperate with grace through obedience (love) then one denies free will. Believing we must cooperate with grace is not saying we have the power to save ourselves. Cooperation (repentance and obedience) is the sign that we accept God’s gift.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, one is saved by keeping the commandments, but the power to do so is given us by God’s grace. What does Jesus answer to the rich young man who kept all the commandments from birth, but could not give up his wealth to be perfect? Obedience is necessary for salvation. Salvation neither begins nor ends with us, as you say. Both are true. “You call me lord, lord, and that is what I am, but if you do not do what I tell you, what good am I to you?” Our cooperation with grace is necessary. We are able to keep His commandments by grace. We are saved by grace Christ obtained for us. Grace is the power God gives us to love and obey and overcome. “Without me you can do nothing”. Then what can we do WITH Him? We can cooperate with grace. Grace is like soap and water. You can believe in it, that it works in a bath, but if it is not applied you remain dirty. Believing in soap and water, or salvation, is useless unless you take a bath. You can believe that we are saved by Christ’s sacrifice and the grace He obtains for us, but it has to be applied. You know it is applied if you are penitent, love God, turned from sin, obedient. Your conscience tells you whether or not you are in the state of grace or sin. This is the crux of Luther’s error. He said obedience and/or repentance are unnecessary for salvation, but that all one needs to do is have faith in Christ, believe that He is the Son of God who died for our sins and was raised. This is what is behind sola fide. The pharisees studied scripture night and day. Knowledge of it did not help them. They also prayed daily. The things of faith were ever present in their lives and of utmost importance to them. Jesus said they were whited sepluchres, filthy inside. He said the LOVE of God was not in them, that they would die in their disobedience (sins) (go to hell). God not only leads us. We follow. There is a communion established by God, between God and the soul, and in this communion God leads and the soul cooperates and follows. If one believes God saves souls who do not cooperate with grace through obedience (love) then one denies free will. Believing we must cooperate with grace is not saying we have the power to save ourselves. Cooperation (repentance and obedience) is the sign that we accept God’s gift.

I absolutely LOVE this post. It is so succint, and clear. I think, however, that Luther did believe in reprentance and obedience (just not to the Church). It was the Refomed theologians that came along later that stripped out the cooperative aspect from salvation. This “sunergesis” (working together with God) is one of the Sacred Traditions preserved in the Apostolic Churches.

“Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” 2 Cor 6:1-2

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Phil 2:12-13

Salvation by grace, through faith!

 

[grandfather]

I absolutely LOVE this post. It is so succint, and clear. I think, however, that Luther did believe in reprentance and obedience (just not to the Church).

“A man is like a beast with a saddle and a bridle. He goes where the rider takes him. If the rider is Christ then the man’s life will be full of good works. If the rider is Satan his life will be full of evil. It matters not, so long as he believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God who died for his sins and was raised from the dead, he will be saved”. Martin Luther

That is from memory and memory is slippping a bit. It may not be precise, but if not it is very close. The beast, saddle and bridle part denies free will. The rest denies the need to repent.

The gospels express the need to obey God over and over. Jesus also teaches that in order to receive mercy, be forgiven, we must be merciful. Meaning we have to DO something. Blessed are the merciful, mercy shall be theirs. The story of the unjust servant who is forgiven, but throws his fellow servant and family in jail for a lesser offense tells us we have to be merciful. The Lords prayer says forgive us as we forgive those who… Those condemned are condemned for what they do. When He was hungry, thirsty, sick, in prison they did not help Him. The blessed DID the opposite. They showed mercy. Forgiveness is clearly conditional. The condition for mercy is being merciful. The conditions are not simply that we believe in Him. We must respond to grace.

Does this mean we save ourselves? No, we are saved by God’s grace, mercy, love. Is it a contradiction to say that God saves us, but we have to obey? We can not obey. We do not have the power to obey unless God helps us. We are completely dependent on God for everything, but the things He gives us enable us to overcome the world, temptation, concupiscience.

 

[mapleoak]

So then one is saved by keeping those (essentially the same) two commandments.

Note that as long as one is still living on this earth, that one is not saved. Keeping those two commandments are a pre-requisite and very necessary for salvation. It is from those two that all other required duties come forth.

There’s a difference as to how one is saved and how the saved are to act. God has revealed to us the basis on which HE saves a sinner (the substitutionary, sacrificial death of His Son), and the means through which He does (personal faith in what the Son has done on our behalf).

It would not be possible to be saved if it weren’t for the sacrifical death of Christ. Christ however does not force salvation on us, nor do we just believe and be saved.

Salvation neither begins nor ends with us. We must trust completely in the work of Another. God is the one who saves - we do not nor cannot save ourselves. And that salvation is eternally secure and assured because it’s based completely on the perfect work of Someone other than ourselves.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) this is not true. Ones salvation is not eternally secure and assured, but is in fact most unsecure. The way to salvation is a narrow path and a hard one to follow indeed, however our ‘trust’ must not be that God will save no matter what, rather that He will give us the necessary grace to accomplish that if that is the path we ‘choose’ to follow.
God does not force His will on us.

 

[rien]

In the passages you quoted (from Romans 2 and Romans 7), St. Paul is indeed talking of, respectively, natural law and the moral law. However it is the passages from the chapters of the books I cited (Romans 3-4, Ephesians 2) which many Protestants erroneously use as proof texts to try and show that St. Paul condemns works as having anything to do with our salvation, but it is these passages that **ARE **speaking of works of the (Jewish) law. **These are the passages that *Sola Fide ***adherents rely on and cite in their arguments against Catholics, and that’s why I (and other Catholic apologists) respond to them.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify.

The protestant apologist I correspond with used the texts I mnetioned. Though i think you are correct most Protestant use Romans 3. Still, bottom line is paul says the law cannot save us. The ceremonial law or the moral law.

 

[savedsinner]

Catholic apologists erroneously use this verse to claim Paul was speaking only of Levitical Law.

That is picking one verse and taking it out of context and sense.

Paul indeed includes the moral law in saying man is not saved by peforming or obeying the law.

In many texts Paul uses the work law not to mean a written code of ethics or religious preactices but an unwritten law. See Romans 2: 14-15.

Paul uses law or works of the law to refer to the moral law of God - in addition to the ceremonial law.

Read Romans 2:17

"Now you, if you call yourself a Jew, if you rely on the law. You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery. Do you commit adultry?

No ceremonial law here. Paul is referring to moral laws as he references the Decalogue.

In Romans 7:6-8 Paul is talking about the moral law when he states on cannot be saved by the law. “…we have been released from the law…” He then talks about coveting which is from the 9th and 10th Commandements. Part of the moral law. By saying we have been relesed from the moral law against coveting Paul is saying the moral law cannot save us.

Catholics seem to be too eager to glean onto this popular, among Catholic apologists, claim that by law Paul was only referring to the ceremonial law. That is simply not the case if you read Scripture in context.

Then I would recommend that you read scripture in context.

Paul also wrote in 1 Corinthians 6:9-20

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything.
“Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food” – and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.” But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

 

[runandsew]

Catholic apologists erroneously use this verse to claim Paul was speaking only of Levitical Law.

That is picking one verse and taking it out of context and sense.

Paul indeed includes the moral law in saying man is not saved by peforming or obeying the law.

Catholics seem to be too eager to glean onto this popular, among Catholic apologists, claim that by law Paul was only referring to the ceremonial law. That is simply not the case if you read Scripture in context.

Jimmy Akin (a Catholic apologist) writes that the term “works of the law” would be better translated as “works of the Torah”.

Here are links to two of his articles which might be helpful to understand what Paul is writing about.

THE WORKS OF THE LAW

JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN BOASTING IN ROMANS

 

[rien]

Jimmy Akin (a Catholic apologist) writes that the term “works of the law” would be better translated as “works of the Torah”.

Here are links to two of his articles which might be helpful to understand what Paul is writing about.

THE WORKS OF THE LAW

JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN BOASTING IN ROMANS

Point is, and Jimmy surely must know this, paul is referring to the ceremonail law and the moral law when he says the law, works can’t save you. Read the text i referenced. You can twist it all you want but the plain sense is the plain sense. isn’t that what catholic apologists always say. Go with the clear, obvious meaning. Though many don’t follow this dictume when it comes to Paul’s meaning re: works.

 

[runandsew]

Point is, and Jimmy surely must know this, paul is referring to the ceremonail law and the moral law when he says the law, works can’t save you. Read the text i referenced. You can twist it all you want but the plain sense is the plain sense. isn’t that what catholic apologists always say. Go with the clear, obvious meaning. Though many don’t follow this dictume when it comes to Paul’s meaning re: works.

There are no Catholic apologist that I know of that say that works save you.
That is not a Catholic teaching.

 

[MariaG]

I have a little penny catechism that asks, “What must I do to be saved?” The answer it gives is, “In order to be saved I must woship God in faith, hope and love”.

On essential difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Protestants hold that “faith alone” is necessary. Faith and love are not the same thing. They may work together, one leading to the other, but they are different. Can one be saved without the love of God? What does it mean to love God? John writes: “The love of God consists in this; that we keep His commandments”.
Jesus says, “If a man LOVES me He will keep my commands”.
He says to the pharisees that the love of God is not in them and they will die in their sins (without repentance). This is a horrifying thought.

If love of God means keeping His commandments what are His commandments? He gives us two, but they are essentially the same, love God and love neighbor.

Jimmy Akin also has a good article on the term faith alone and that with the definition of some(many? most?) non-Catholics have of faith alone equals the Catholic definition of faith, hope and love. In my personal experience, even the baptists who have a OSAS belief believe that true faith will have “fruit” or one is not saved to begin with.

I seem to have misplaced my link for that article.

 

[guanophore]

The protestant apologist I correspond with used the texts I mnetioned. Though i think you are correct most Protestant use Romans 3. Still, bottom line is paul says the law cannot save us. The ceremonial law or the moral law.

True, the law cannot save. Jesus saves, by His Grace, through faith. Those who are saved will reflect their gratitude to God by bearing fruit, manifested in obedience. The fulfillment of the law is the reflection of being saved.

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

No. the Levitical law is not the same as moral law.

In the Mosaic Covenant (Law) there’s are no such things as the “Levetical law” separate from the “Moral law.” The Mosaic covenant was a three-fold governing system made with Israel at Mt. Sinai. It consisted of the Commandments, the Judgments and the Ordinances. It (the Law) provided its own instruction as to what was good, and its own prohibition against that which was evil. And in the prescribed sacrifices it provided its own remedy for the wrong committed by individuals and the nation. "The Mosaic Law was the rule of life before God for national Israel UNTIL the cross.

Jesus never set aside the moral law,

Jesus never “set aside” any Law. He didn’t come to abolish either the Law or the prophets, but to fulfill. As a Man, born a Jew, born under the conditions of the Law (Gal. 4:4) He fulfilled the Law (all of it) in His Person and sacrificial work. He didn’t “set it aside,” He accomplished it. Even the moral aspects of it.

He just enabled us to keep it by filling us with grace, and putting His spirit within.

According to the Scriptures salvation is based on a totally different principle than law.Rom. 3:21 "But now apart from law (i.e., the principle of law, no definite article) {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law (definite article) and the Prophets,"The Law and the prophets witnessed to the coming of Christ. The only One who could fulfill the Law. Salvation (and the righteousness God provides through it) is not based on the principle of law, whatsoever, but wholly on the principle of divine grace (divine favor through faith in the One who fulfilled the Law).Gal. 3:21b "…For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

Phil. 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (i.e., the principle of law), again, no definite article), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,

Rom 4:13 "For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through law (again, no definite article: i.e., the principle of law), but through the righteousness of faith.Bottom line, G., N.C. salvation is based solely on the principle of divine GRACE (unmerited favor) through FAITH (Eph. 2:8-9), not the principle of law obedience. Not even “God-enabled” law obedience, but the “obedience of FAITH” (Rom. 1:5; 16:26; Acts 6:7).

So, according to the gospel delivered to us by the Apostles, God saves strictly on the principle of grace, through faith. It is the saved, through faith, that are regenerated by the Spirit with a new inward desire to serve God. His Spirit indwells only those who have been cleansed, once for all, of all sins through Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice. No one puts new wine into old wine skins.

I think not. I agree with you that the placing of the Spirit within equates to regeneration,

Actually, the Spirit makes His abode in the believer once He has been cleansed of all sins through faith in Christ. He abides in the one He Himself regenerated (made alive). The Spirit’s work of regeneration and His abiding in the believer are not synonymous.

but the ability to live a life in compliance with God’s laws is what sanctification is all about.

Sanctification is not salvation. It is the saved that are sanctified in Christ Jesus (1 Cor. 1:2). The saved are “set apart” (sanctified) in Christ, having been purchased (redeemed) with His blood (1 Pet. 1:18-19; Eph. 1:7):1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:

1 Cor. 1:30 “But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,”

 

[apophasis]

Originally Posted by apophasis “So then one is saved by keeping those (essentially the same) two commandments?”

Guanophore: “don’t you agree?”

God forbid that I should circumvent the cross and base salvation on commandment keeping.

I am not sure that there needs to be a distinction between how one is saved, and how the saved are to act. It is all rooted in saving grace.

That’s because you don’t believe the power for God to save is rooted in the cross, but a cooperative effort between God and man. Hence, no assurance of salvation either. Ultimately you believe salvation is determined upon your cooperation, since without you the cross is ineffectual.

But Paul clearly makes the distinction in Eph. 2:8-10. First one is saved by grace through faith - a gift of God. (2:8-9). Then those saved “by grace through faith” are newly created in Christ Jesus (no longer in Adam) FOR good works, not by them.

IOW, subsequent works neither save you nor create you. Salvation first, works follow.

It is, but He also chose to make us part of that work.

Not the work of salvation

He chose to work in, with, and through people, and to create a church to be His Body on earth. He didnt’ have to do it that way.

He didn’t do it that way at all. The “body of Christ” is made up of all who ARE saved. The work they perform is to glorify Christ, the One who saved them through His sacrificial blood.

 

[MariaG]

The work they perform is to glorify Christ, the One who saved them through His sacrificial blood.

The work they perform certainly does glorify God for it is only because of Him that they can be performed in the first place.

But they are also the fruit. If no fruit is produced, is one truly saved?

 

[guanophore]

The Mosaic covenant was a three-fold governing system made with Israel at Mt. Sinai. It consisted of the Commandments, the Judgments and the Ordinances.

Yes. I did not express this as well as you did, but we are in agreement on this point.

"The Mosaic Law was the rule of life before God for national Israel UNTIL the cross.Jesus never “set aside” any Law.

I mean, to the extent that his death paid the penalty, and the “warrant” is cancelled.

Col 2:14
14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross."

He fulfilled the Law (all of it) in His Person and sacrificial work. He didn’t “set it aside,” He accomplished it. Even the moral aspects of it.

Yes, and when we are “in Christ”, we are to fulfill the Law in the same way that He did.

Phil 3:8-11
For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

We are joined with HIm in His death through baptism, and in the power of His resurrection. We share in HIs sufferings. We are made capable of following the Law of God by Grace, through the power of the HS shed abroad in our hearts.

According to the Scriptures salvation is based on a totally different principle than law. Christ. The only One who could fulfill the Law. Salvation (and the righteousness God provides through it) is not based on the principle of law, whatsoever, but wholly on the principle of divine grace (divine favor through faith in the One who fulfilled the Law).

Gal. 3:21b "…For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
​

Indeed, and that salvation infuses humans with the grace to comply with the Law in a way that those prior to Pentecost did not have.

Phil. 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (i.e., the principle of law), again, no definite article), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,

Do you think Jesus does not expect us to follow the ten commandments?

salvation is based solely on the principle of divine GRACE (unmerited favor) through FAITH (Eph. 2:8-9), not the principle of law obedience. Not even “God-enabled” law obedience, but the “obedience of FAITH” (Rom. 1:5; 16:26; Acts 6:7).

I think we are in agreement on this point. My only point is that the obedience of faith enables a person to fulfill the Law, just as Christ did, by grace, through faith.

So, according to the gospel delivered to us by the Apostles, God saves strictly on the principle of grace, through faith. It is the saved, through faith, that are regenerated by the Spirit with a new inward desire to serve God. His Spirit indwells only those who have been cleansed, once for all, of all sins through Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice. No one puts new wine into old wine skins.Actually, the Spirit makes His abode in the believer once He has been cleansed of all sins through faith in Christ. He abides in the one He Himself regenerated (made alive). The Spirit’s work of regeneration and His abiding in the believer are not synonymous.

No, but they are continuous.

Sanctification is not salvation. It is the saved that are sanctified in Christ Jesus (1 Cor. 1:2). The saved are “set apart” (sanctified) in Christ, having been purchased (redeemed) with His blood (1 Pet. 1:18-19; Eph. 1:7):

1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:

1 Cor. 1:30 “But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,”
​

It is just semantics, Apo. Catholicism teaches that sanctification is part of the salvific process that begins with justification and regeneration, and ends in glorification. Reformed theologians separate them from each other, but the nature of what happens is no different.​

 

[guanophore]

God forbid that I should circumvent the cross and base salvation on commandment keeping.

On the contrary, Jesus taught us that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. This is the greatest reflection of appreciation for his sacrifice, to leave a life worthy of our call.

That’s because you don’t believe the power for God to save is rooted in the cross, but a cooperative effort between God and man.

I believe that the two cannot be separated. The Apostolic teaching is that Jesus died for ALL, not a certain collection of persons. However, not ALL apply His saving grace to themselves. Some reject Him, and there fore, do not cooperate with His grace unto salvation. Catholicism teaches that humans are made in the image and likeness of God, and that means we have a choice.

Hence, no assurance of salvation either. Ultimately you believe salvation is determined upon your cooperation, since without you the cross is ineffectual.

The work of the cross is completely sufficient and effectual. Whether or not that saving grace is applied to a person is dependent upon that individual.

Unless you think that Jesus did not die for Judas’ sins?

But Paul clearly makes the distinction in Eph. 2:8-10. First one is saved by grace through faith - a gift of God. (2:8-9). Then those saved “by grace through faith” are newly created in Christ Jesus (no longer in Adam) FOR good works, not by them.

I have no arguement with this. Jesus teaches us that we are to believe. He calls this a “work” of God. God’s grace enables us toward faith, then we CHOOSE to believe. Through that faith, by grace, we are saved. Our salvation is made evident when we walk in the good works God created before hand that we should walk in them. The events are not separate from each other.

IOW, subsequent works neither save you nor create you.  Salvation first, works follow.Not the work of salvationHe didn't do it that way at all.  The "*body of Christ*" is made up of all who ARE saved.  The work they perform is to glorify Christ, the One who saved them through His sacrificial blood.

For the most part, I have to agree with this. Then there is that becoming a new creation daily. Cooperating with God’s grace really does result in a transformation, where day by day we are conformed more into HIs image and likeness.

 

[apophasis]

The work they perform certainly does glorify God for it is only because of Him that they can be performed in the first place.

But they are also the fruit. If no fruit is produced, is one truly saved?

I would think not. But it’s not the fruit that saves. God Himself saves “by grace through faith…”

Be careful what you call “fruit.” “Works” are not necessarily “fruit.” One might think because a person demonstrates great works he/she has great faith. Not necessarily true. Saving faith has an object, and that object is Christ crucified on our behalf, in our stead.

Saving faith believes what God accomplished, once for all, through Christ alone. And the fruit produced from that faith reflects the Person and work of the One who saved.

 

[MariaG]

I would think not. But it’s not the fruit that saves. God Himself saves “by grace through faith…”

Be careful what you call “fruit.” “Works” are not necessarily “fruit.” One might think because a person demonstrates great works he/she has great faith. Not necessarily true. Saving faith has an object, and that object is Christ crucified on our behalf, in our stead.

Saving faith believes what God accomplished, once for all, through Christ alone. And the fruit produced from that faith reflects the Person and work of the One who saved.

And Catholics do not think it is the fruit that saves them. But when a Catholic Christian says “works” they are usually meaning what you would call “fruit”. Works of mercy is the Catholic phrase.

And while a person can certainly “do” all the right things for the wrong reasons, trying to earn their way to heaven, it is not the teaching of the Catholic church that one can earn their way to heaven throught any “works” or “fruit”.

One of the reasons that Catholics reject the term “faith alone” is because according to the definition of the Catholic Church, Faith is the intellectual acceptance of God. But we both know that even the devil believes.

What most non-Catholics refer to as “faith alone” would be defined as Faith, hope and Charity by the Catholic church.

Nice article on this by James Akin Justification by Faith Alone