What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[rinnie]

MY soul procliams he greatness of the Lord my spirit rejoices in GOD my Savior.

For he has LOOKED upon his handmai’s LOWLINESS,…

THe Mighty one has DONE great things for ME, and HOLY in his name.

She has ALWAYS been hand made by GOD and was made HOLY IN HIS NAME. From the MOMENT of her conception. If she was not saved from ALL types of sin and had any sin on her she could not be MADE HOLY IN HIS NAME.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Immaculate Conception

Post-Apostolic:
Implicitly found in the Fathers of the Church in the parallelism between Eve and Mary (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140? - 202?); Found in the more general terms about Mary: “holy”, “innocent”, “most pure”, “intact”, “immaculate” (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140?-202?; Ephraem, Syria, 306-373; Ambrose, Milan, 373-397); Explicit language: Mary - free from original sin (Augustine, Hippo, 395-430 to Anselm, Normandy, 1033-1109).
Celebrations:

[Eastern Church] celebrated a “Feast of the Conception of Mary” in the 8th to the 9th Century; Western Church: celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 12th Century; A record of the feast in the 11th Century in Great Britain; in the 12th Century in Normandy; Record in many churches of a Feast of the Conception of Mary in France, Germany, Italy and Spain in the 12th Century (Bernard, Clairvaux, 1090-1153).
14th Century:

Was noted for the opposition to the Immaculate Conception from some of the great doctors of scholasticism. The celebration of the feast was not denied though. The difficulty arose from the meaning of the universal redemption through Christ.
15th Century:

Franciscan theologians solved the difficulty. Christ, the most perfect mediator, preserved Mary from original sin by an equally perfect act of healing. Duns Scotus (Scotland, 1266-1308) explained that the Immaculate Conception came through God’s application of the grace of Christ beforehand.
From 15th Century:

The Feast was universally celebrated; and christian piety introduced an oath to defend the belief in the Immaculate Conception to be taken not only by Religious, but also by non-Religious and at the Universities (e.g., Paris, 1497; Cologne, 1499; Vienna, 1501)
From the 17th Century:

The clause “to the shedding of blood” was added to the oath taken to defend the belief in the Immaculate Conception.
1854

Pope Pius IX, infallibly defined, ex cathedra: “The Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the foreseen merits of Jesus Christ, the savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

Nonbelievers and enemies of Roman Catholic Christianity often accuse the Church of creating the belief in Mary’s freedom from original sin “the Immaculate Conception” in 1854 (as the Church named the belief of Mary’s immediate entry, body and soul, into Heaven, “the Assumption” in 1950) when the truths were defined. Such an error is equivalent to saying that before Adam named the animals and birds of creation in Gen 2:19-20 they did not exist. Or that before the early Church in her Ecumenical Councils named the belief of three persons in one God “the Trinity” and the belief that there are two natures, human and divine in the person of Jesus Christ “the Incarnation,” the truths did not exist.

Amazing how the EO overlooks its own history as well as Angelican posting here.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Bible??

The basis for the belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary can be found in the Biblical revelation of holiness and the opposite of that state, sinfulness.

God is revealed as perfect interior holiness.

Is 6:3
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts!” they (the Seraphim) cried one to the other.
No sin or anything tainted with sin can stand in the face of the holiness of God. “Enmity” is that mutual hatred between Mary and sin, between Christ and sin.

Gen 3:15
I will put enmity between you (the serpent, Satan) and the woman (Mary), and between your offspring (minions of Satan) and hers (Jesus); He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.
For the birth of God as a human being, God was interested in the condition of the mother’s womb. For even a great, but imperfect, judge of Israel, Samson, God was directive about the state of the mother during the pregnancy. The request for the mother to be pure is repeated for emphasis.

Judges 13:3-4
An angel of the LORD appeared to the woman and said to her, “Though you are barren and have had no children, yet you will conceive and bear a son. Now, then, be careful to take no wine or strong drink and to eat nothing unclean.”

Judges 13:7
"But he (the angel) said to me, ‘You will be with child and will bear a son. So take neither wine nor strong drink, and eat nothing unclean. For the boy shall be consecrated to God from the womb, until the day of his death.’ "

Judges 13:13-14
The angel of the LORD answered Manoah, “Your wife is to abstain from all the things of which I spoke to her. She must not eat anything that comes from the vine, nor take wine or strong drink, nor eat anything unclean. Let her observe all that I have commanded her.”
How much more would God be interested in the state of His own mother’s womb!

The salutation of the Angel Gabriel is different from the usual angelic greeting. It indicates that Mary was exceptionally “highly favored with grace” (Greek: charitoo, used twice in the New Testament, in Lk 1:28 for Mary - before Christ’s redemption; and Eph 1:6 for Christ’s grace to us - after Christ’s redemption).

Lk 1:28
And coming to her (Mary), he (the angel Gabriel) said, “Hail, favored one (kecharitomene)”

Eph 1:4-6
(God) chose us in him (Jesus), before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will, for the praise of the glory of his grace (echaritosen) that he granted us in the beloved.
Note that the angel’s salutation preceded Mary’s acquiescence. Mary was already highly favored. God’s grace was not given in time after Mary accepted the angel’s word. The Church believes that this grace was given from the very beginning of Mary’s life. It is clearly grace because at the time of Mary’s conception she could have done nothing to earn it.

 

[rinnie]

Indeed! But it should not be difficult to comprehend that this novel “doctrine” is not supported by Councils, patristics, Scripture or Tradition.
We have already been through this. St Irenaeus says nothing about the IC.
Gensis says nothing about the IC…you are trying to retroactively twist Scripture to fit a 19th century Roman Catholic doctrine.

Genesis says nothing about the Immaculate Coneception The seed of women. You cannot see this is the first promise of a Redeemer for fallen mankind:shrug:

 

[KathleenGee]

Gary,

Yes the references to holiness and Mary’s constant referral to God for her holiness…plus the cultural fact that she consented to being the Mother of God about the time girls (in our perspective), got married.

What that implies, as well, is that she was normal in all ways. And I cannot see any person that young achieving such a state of holiness through ascetism, except in that she was conceived without sin.

Those of us who do sin all must take the same walk, as the saints of perfection teach us. We cannot side step. But Blessed Mother in her humanity took the same walk in her desire for God alone, but she did not go through the purgation of attachments and sin like the rest of us-- which take time and trials and hardships to remove.

And again, people can point to Roman Catholics who did not believe either in the Immaculate Conception. I read a point here some time ago that St. Thomas Aquinas did not actively reject it as is displayed here on this thread, but his intent was not to take away from Christ.

True devotion to Mary always points to Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Mickey again just because the understanding of the Immaculate Coneception could not be understood by all, by no means makes it untrue.

It is taught as the true word of God.

Many People cannot comprehend the Trinity, SO. it makes in on less true either.

 

[Mickey]

Your circular argument is lacking so was your word choice in “patristic”.

There is nothing circular. It is clear. And patristic is not the only evidence that this doctrine is an innovation. Nothing in the Councils, Scripture, Tradition, patristics, etc.

The case is made

The case is not made.

Bottom line is the Doctrine is based on Scripture and the early church fathers.

You have offered no evidence.

 

[Mickey]

Trinity Mick where does it say the word Trinity?

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is revealed to us many times in Sacred Scripture. This is clear. However, not one time…do we see in the Scriptures… this novel idea that the Virgin Mary was spared from original sin at the moment of conception. Not one time. And we do not see it in the Great Councils, or patristic consesnus.

 

[KathleenGee]

Maybe some people around here should spend more time reflecting and praying about Mary to find the truth about her than constantly denying her, that some already could recognize hundreds of years ago…before the 1800’s.

 

[GaryTaylor]

There is nothing circular. It is clear. And patristic is not the only evidence that this doctrine is an innovation. Nothing in the Councils, Scripture, Tradition, patristics, etc.
The case is not made.
You have offered no evidence.

Are you now saying the EO never venerated this day in Tradition? Amazing you even deny the History of the EO.

“[Eastern Church] celebrated a “Feast of the Conception of Mary” in the 8th to the 9th Century” Its believed to go as far back as the Fifth Century.

Are your serious or are you playing?

 

[Mickey]

why do you agree that she is sinless also? You need to show me this.

I already have… but you are not able to comprehend. It seems that you are unable to differentiate between original and actual sin. The reason that Our Lady is venerated with such love is because she cooperated with the grace of God to fight and conquer the passions…being obedient to Word of God with her fiat… and remaining ever virgin.

But there is nothing anywhere about being spared from Original sin at the monment of conception.

 

[rinnie]

Mickey to say that she is sinless just like the rest of us is in direct conflict of scripture.

Blessed are you AMONG women. Why am I not blessed among women?

All generations will call you Blessed. WHy do all generations not call me blessed?

Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus? WHy was the fruit of my womb not blessed?

You have found favor with God, Why am I not told that I have found favor with God?

A virgin will give birth to a son, and it is the seed of a women, Why was I not a virgin when I had my son,and why was my seed from Man?

Mary was saved from ALL SIN from God or she could not be called the Immaculate Mother of God.

You could never put me or any women in the same category with the HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD, because we are not Made HOLY which is without sin.

To say she had sin or was ever tainted with Original Sin makes her just like the rest of us, WITH SIN, She has never had the stain of Original sin on her, The Angel told us she was made HOLY BY GOD.

 

[Mickey]

Amazing how the EO overlooks its own history

LOL!!!

The history of the Holy Orthodox Church from apostolic times until today says NOTHING about the novel doctrine of the IC.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Gary,

Yes the references to holiness and Mary’s constant referral to God for her holiness…plus the cultural fact that she consented to being the Mother of God about the time girls (in our perspective), got married.

What that implies, as well, is that she was normal in all ways. And I cannot see any person that young achieving such a state of holiness through ascetism, except in that she was conceived without sin.

Those of us who do sin all must take the same walk, as the saints of perfection teach us. We cannot side step. But Blessed Mother in her humanity took the same walk in her desire for God alone, but she did not go through the purgation of attachments and sin like the rest of us-- which take time and trials and hardships to remove.

And again, people can point to Roman Catholics who did not believe either in the Immaculate Conception. I read a point here some time ago that St. Thomas Aquinas did not actively reject it as is displayed here on this thread, but his intent was not to take away from Christ.

True devotion to Mary always points to Christ.

Exactly

I’m looking for the 5th Century Feast by the EO. That far back it was referred to as the “Commemeration of Mary” I “think”. I have to seach for it. Not postive which church father mentions this either, but its in my memory and a definate feast day in the EO. Again I’m reduced to hand written notes which I should have on the computer…LAZY I tell you.

 

[Mickey]

Is 6:3
Gen 3:15
Judges 13:3-4
Judges 13:7
Judges 13:13-14
Lk 1:28
Eph 1:4-6

LOL! Those interpretations were not patristic.

They came from the apologists Paul Flanagan and Robert Schihl (whoever they are). Next time you cut and paste. please provide your source.

 

[Mickey]

Genesis says nothing about the Immaculate Coneception

It does not.

 

[Mickey]

It is taught as the true word of God.

How can it be taught as the true Word of God when it is not even implied in the Sacred Scriptures?

 

[Mickey]

Maybe some people around here should spend more time reflecting and praying about Mary to find the truth about her than constantly denying her

I do not think that anyone here is denying her…what a terrible thing to say.

It is the odd IC doctrine that is being questioned.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Ah the “Commemoration of Mary” or mneme [Greek] dates to early 5-AD in the EO. Relates to the Assumption of Mary. WOW not the ASSUMPTION in the EO. And its St. Athanasius who agrued there would be NO FESTIVAL for the Theotokos if She had not played a part in Salvation.

I knew we would get to St Athanasius sooner or later.

 

[Mickey]

Are you now saying the EO never venerated this day in Tradition?

Not at all my friend. We celebrate the Feast of the conception by St Anna of the Most Holy Theotokos (It is not one of our major feats). But this has nothing to do with the RCC doctrine of IC.