What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

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Hesychios said:
We only have the effects (your church and mine say so), not the guilt.

Yet you say baptism washes these effects away? Do we not bleed, do we not yearn for pleasure, do we not hunger and thirst, do we not die?

Everyone must pass through death.

But we have hope in the Lord.
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No we do not die, Not if we are baptised in the Lord. When we are baptised it washes away Original sin that could only be washed away by the Body and blood of Christ.

Jesus took away death, Baptism washed away original sin once and for all, It can never touch us again.

If we sin now it is by our own free will. While the URGE to sin always remains the Grace of God can overpower it.

You are saying that we have to sin or something. This is not true. While we can have the urge which is the stain we have the grace of God to overpower it.

We are all called to be Saints. To be Saints is to not sin, If it were not possible to not commmit sin it would not have been commanded of us to do so.

What you are saying is just because a Alcoholic feels the urge to have a drink he has to drink. You are not right here. The urge of sin can be overcome with the help of GOds grace.

What I hear you saying is we cannot by the unending Grace of God overcome the urge to sin. ITs not what the Church has ever taught.
 
rinnie said:
Again we do not believe in death. Only if you die in mortal sin. We believe that there is no death, that Jesus took away death on the cross.

You either believe that Jesus took away death on the cross or you do not. We believe that our soul is the center of our being not our body. You cannot kill a soul only by sin.

IF you are in the state of Grace you will not enter into death, you will enter into eternal life with CHrist. You can kill the body but not the soul.
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I think you are misunderstanding what they are saying. They are not talking about spiritual death. They are talking about bodily death, i.e. the heart stops beating, the body dies. Orthodox believe that Mary died before she was assumed (body and soul) into Heaven. Catholics on the other hand allow for belief that either she bodily died or she didn’t before the assumption. That is what they are talking about.

So yes, you do believe in death, since we all die, right? Christ conquered death through His death and resurrection, however that does not mean that we don’t bodily die. We of course do.
 
Let me have a re-do here as they call it.

I said something wrong, Baptism does save us from Original sin, BUt we can die in actual sin. Another wards while when we are baptised we are saved from O.S. and have received that Grace from God to be saved once and for all.

We can fall from the Grace of God and commit Actual sin. If we do not repent and refuse to accept Christ and his grace we can and will die in Mortal sin and not have eternal life in Christ. We will have eternal death and then the devil did win.

But he only won because we gave up our free will to sin against God.
 
rinnie said:
No we do not die, Not if we are baptised in the Lord.
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I will try one last time to simplify this since you are having great difficulty understanding. We know that Christ trampled down death by death. But we still experience bodily death. Why are RC’s permitted to believe that St Mary did nor experience bodily death?
 
BYUChemAlum said:
I think you are misunderstanding what they are saying. They are not talking about spiritual death. They are talking about bodily death, i.e. the heart stops beating, the body dies. Orthodox believe that Mary died before she was assumed (body and soul) into Heaven. Catholics on the other hand allow for belief that either she bodily died or she didn’t before the assumption. That is what they are talking about.

So yes, you do believe in death, since we all die, right? Christ conquered death through His death and resurrection, however that does not mean that we don’t bodily die. We of course do.
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Yes I know WE do. But I do not believe she did. I believe that she fell asleep in Christ. Answer me this. Jesus by his death took away death, you agree with me on that.

Now on the last day do you believe that our soul will enter our physcial body once again. Then if you believe that why can’t you believe that the Blessed Mother fell asleep in Christ and was raised body and soul.

Back to the question do you believe you can have a physical body alive without a soul?:confused: We believe that she experience a deep sleep and was raised into heaven BODY and soul.

We do not believe that we will be raised BODY and SOUL only soul. Until the last day then we will be united with the Body. But the body is nothing without a soul so why does it matter?
 
Mickey said:
I will try one last time to simplify this since you are having great difficulty understanding. We know that Christ trampled down death by death. But we still experience bodily death. Why are RC’s permitted to believe that St Mary did nor experience bodily death?
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Simple because she did not have the stain of Original SIn. Original sin is corruption of the body. The devil can get our body. Mickey do you agree that I can kill your body but not your soul? thats my point then.

The devil could not do either to her. By Jesus dying on the cross by a Grace from God not even Original sin the corruption of the body could get her. Thats part of being SAVED from Original sin.

That is what makes her sinless, and different from us.

Now you tell me this, do you believe that she was raised BODY and SOUL?

In the bible Jesus says by our won free will we can give into physical sin. WHich is actual sin. He does not save us from Physical sin or actual sin only if we ASK and REPENT.

But O.S we did not have to ask or repent. It was taken away by his death on the cross. But the stain remained on us, but not the Blessed Mother which is my whole point. She was sinless we are not. Even to the point of the stain of O.S. We still have it, or our body would not rot.
 
Hesychios said:
I agree.
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Okay but see here is the thing. The physical death we suffer is because of our sin. The devil got us there.

Not because he has any power, its because we gave it to him.

Now if we never sinned or had the urge to sin we would be like the Blessed Mother. But see by being saved by the STAIN of it, no urge was ever there.

But by Grace was can get rid of the urge but its hard.

Simply because we are nto SAVED at the moment of our conception by the STAIN it still remains on us or in us.

But the devil can work on us and find that urge and do his best to work on us and push us, but it still comes down to us. But we cannot deny the urge to sin, thats what the stain of O.S is. But that is why they devil could not even work on her, there was not urge there to work on.

What I am saying is by not having not only the free will to NOT SIN and use it, the urge to even think about it existed. But that does not say she could not sin. Adam and Eve did not have the urge either, were fully human and sinned. See what I am saying/

The devil CAN get to any of us, But for some his work is much easier. And usually those are the ones who forget to put up the biggest block in Church History. Prayer. It is the biggest defensive end we have.
 
rinnie said:
… But I do not believe she did.
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But since she did physically die, her body expired, there is no point in pretending that she did not.

Falling asleep in the Lord has always been a euphemism for bodily death, because we all believe in everlasting life in God.

But the body does die, to be resurrected later.

That Saint Mary did die and then was assumed bodily is an old tradition. This makes her among the First Fruits of the resurrection.

This is Saint Mary, the Holy Theotokos with her son Jesus the Christ …

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This is her funeral, attended by of the Apostles, including Ss Paul and Peter (with the exception of Saint Thomas) …


The Dormition of the Theotokos

There is a representation of this event in probably every Orthodox parish church and cathedral I have been in, not to mention EC parishes.
 
Hesychios said:
But since she did physically die, her body expired, there is no point in pretending that she did not.

Falling asleep in the Lord has always been a euphemism for bodily death, because we all believe in everlasting life in God.

But the body does die, to be resurrected later.

That Saint Mary did die and then was assumed bodily is an old tradition. This makes her among the First Fruits of the resurrection.

This is Saint Mary, the Holy Theotokos with her son Jesus the Christ …

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uwRGGqWUH...AFbk/o-l1PGifINU/s1600/Troeruchitsa_ikona.jpg

This is her funeral, attended by of the Apostles, including Ss Paul and Peter (with the exception of Saint Thomas) …

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Oblachnoe.jpg/499px-Oblachnoe.jpg
The Dormition of the Theotokos

There is a representation of this event in probably every Orthodox parish church and cathedral I have been in, not to mention EC parishes.
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But see that is why it does not have to be an issue for us. She was raised body and soul and her soul and body entered into heaven.

Because what is a physical death really, Its the body leaving the soul is it not. Did here body and soul depart. or were they raised together into eternal life. See what I am saying here.

We know that when we die our body and soul depart from one another until the last day are reunited. Hers did it all together. SO what is the big deal to believe that she did not die a physical death, when her body did not depart from her soul it was raiised together.🤷
 
To put this another way, The moment our soul departs from our Body our body begins to decompose. That is Original sin.

BUt being that she was not touched by Original sin her body did not have to depart from her soul and she was raised body and soul into heaven. Her body did not see corruption.

SO do you not agree that physical death is the body and soul apart from one another?
 
Mickey said:
Why are RC’s permitted to believe that St Mary did nor experience bodily death?
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It is my understanding that we are notrequired to believe that she died or did not die, only that she was assumed. I personally don’t put a lot of thought into it.

Should I?
 
Hesychios said:
Because of Adam’s sin.
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Original sin, yes. Right Adams sin, because remember eve did not sin, the devil made her do it, see thats where we got that from:rotfl::rotfl:

When my kids were little I would say to my daughter when she would not repent so its the devils fault right EVE?😃 Then I would say to my son Okay Adam now its Gods fault right:p

What people refuse to see it is not the sin of Adam and Eve that got us into Original sin as much as thier refusal to repent.

Eve blamed the devil and adam blamed eve, then when that would not fly he blamed God.

I have always wondered what would have happned if they would have just repented and said Forgive me Father I have sinned.
He would have forgiven them too.

I always think that how God made up for the sin of Adam we also play our part in learning our lesson by his mistake and we repent.
 
mark_a said:
It is my understanding that we are notrequired to believe that she died or did not die, only that she was assumed. I personally don’t put a lot of thought into it.

Should I?
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I agree with you there Mickey, but here is where that thinking should show you the IC is true. How could she be assumed BODY and SOUL if she was touched with Original SIn or as your buddy said Adams sin.

I personally believe it was BOTH of them that sinned. But rather its Adams sin, Adam and Eves sin. it still called in the RCC Original Sin.

How could her Physical Body be assumed into heaven and we cannot if we all have the same stain of Original sin? You must admit Mickey it is quite logical.
 
rinnie said:
But see that is why it does not have to be an issue for us. She was raised body and soul and her soul and body entered into heaven.

Because what is a physical death really, Its the body leaving the soul is it not. Did here body and soul depart. or were they raised together into eternal life. See what I am saying here.
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You have read, I suppose, Saint Paul’s description of the resurrection.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds
1 Thess 4

Is not your shurch a church of scripture and tradition? Tradition speaks most certainly of her dying, in fact the entire notion of Saint Mary’s assumption came from the east to the west and that tradition, which once was also the western tradition, is of her dying and then rising.

In other words, the only witness you have of her assumption at all comes from this eastern Christian tradition of her death and resurrection. It has no other origin.

If you doubt this, read The most bountiful God, Munificentimus Deus by Pius XII.

It has several Patristic references and quotes that mention her death! He may have been nebulous in his dogma, but the document that encloses it leaves no doubt that the Patristic tradition which supports her assumption is linked to her death.

To wit: Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges. “It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death”.

Saint John of Damascus is not only a great Orthodox saint, but a Doctor of your chuch.

It is a death and resurrection - among the first fruits of the coming general resurrection.
 
mark_a said:
It is my understanding that we are not required to believe that she died or did not die, only that she was assumed. I personally don’t put a lot of thought into it.

Should I?
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I supposed that is up to you. The Church always taught that St Mary fell asleep–that she experienced physical death. But then the IC became a doctrine and this posed a problem because death is a consequence of ancestral (original) sin. So when Rome declared the Assumption as doctrine in 1950, they had this problem caused by the IC.

The solution? Leave it unanswered. 🤷
 
rinnie said:
Now if we never sinned or had the urge to sin we would be like the Blessed Mother. But see by being saved by the STAIN of it, no urge was ever there.
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Really? St Mary was never tempted (urged) to sin? Where is this officially taught in your church?
 
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