What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[JonNC]

Really? St Mary was never tempted (urged) to sin?

This would be a troubling POV for me. It would mean that, 1) The Blessed Virgin was protected in a way that Christ did not even provide for Himself, and 2) that the tempter chose to give her a pass, one that one other human received.

To everyone, how do you view Luther’s statment on the Assumption:
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

Really? St Mary was never tempted (urged) to sin? Where is this officially taught in your church?

Please do not put words in my mouth Mickey. Having someone tires to get you to sin, in no means says that you have the urge to fall for that temptation. You have the free will to say no and mean it.

SO then what you are saying is by the Grace of GOd we cannot overcome our urge to sin because someone tempts us You can do better then that Mickey.

Gods grace makes us strong and able to beat temptation.

 

[rinnie]

This would be a troubling POV for me. It would mean that, 1) The Blessed Virgin was protected in a way that Christ did not even provide for Himself, and 2) that the tempter chose to give her a pass, one that one other human received.

To everyone, how do you view Luther’s statment on the Assumption:
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

Jon

I have more of a problem with what you are saying Jon, That while the devil TRIED to have Christ fall into temptation that he had the urge to follow the devil and sin.

Thats a big problem for me. How in the world could CHrist who is Perfect ever begin to fill an URGE to SIN

So then what you are saying is when the devil tempted him, he had the urge to fall for it? Think about what you just said Jon.

Jesus Christ was God and would never have a urge to ever think about committing a sin. Just because he was Human in every way which means he could be tempted does not mean he would ever even think about sin. I have to disagree with you on this one 100% my Friend.

 

[Mickey]

Please do not put words in my mouth Mickey.

No one has placed words in your mouth. You have said that St Mary was never “urged” to sin. Here are your words:

"Now if we never sinned or had the urge to sin we would be like the Blessed Mother. But see by being saved by the STAIN of it, no urge was ever there."

---

I am asking you to show us where your church teaches this.

 

[rinnie]

Really? St Mary was never tempted (urged) to sin? Where is this officially taught in your church?

In the IC Mikey. Being saved from Original sin means she did not have the urge to sin. Everything in her life was about doing the will of GOd, by her own free will.

She told you she was a handmaiden of the Lord, which means by her own free will the only URGE she had in her life was to honor Our Lord and do his will.

Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee, THEY kingdom come THY WILL BE DONE on earth as it is in heaven.

SHe was full of the Holy Spirit which mean she had no sin and no urge to sin. SHe was filled with the GRACE OF GOD. WHen you are FILLED with the grace of God there is no room for sin. Filled means complete.

 

[Mickey]

I have more of a problem with what you are saying Jon, That while the devil TRIED to have Christ fall into temptation that he had the urge to follow the devil and sin.

That is** not** what Jon is saying. You are claiming that St Mary was never urged to sin. “Urge” is often used as a synonym for “tempted.” So we are understanding you to mean that you think St Mary was never “tempted.” Yet we know that Christ was “tempted.”

So it seems that you are saying that St Mary was spared from being “tempted.”

 

[JonNC]

=rinnie;8136353]I have more of a problem with what you are saying Jon, That while the devil TRIED to have Christ fall into temptation that he had the urge to follow the devil and sin.

Thats a big problem for me. How in the world could CHrist who is Perfect ever begin to fill an URGE to SIN

So then what you are saying is when the devil tempted him, he had the urge to fall for it? Think about what you just said Jon.

I guess then we need to define being tempted. I can see that you are making a distinction between being tempted by the devil, and allowing oneself to fall into temptation.
My distinction is that falling into temptation is a sin, being tempted by the devil is not. And rejecting the urge to sin is different than giving into the urge.

Regards the Blessed Virgin, surely the devil tempted her. Feeling the pull of temptation is part of being human, and I have no reason to doubt that was there for her. If we assume she had free will, one would then assume she rejected that temptation.

Jesus Christ was God and would never have a urge to ever think about committing a sin. Just because he was Human in every way which means he could be tempted does not mean he would ever even think about sin. I have to disagree with you on this one 100% my Friend.

This could not be said of the Blessed Virgin.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

Jon if you look at a women with lust in your eyes I tell you, you have already commited Adultery.

So you are agree looking at a women with lust is a sin, did you not already commit venial sin. IS lust for her not an urge.

A women can tempt you all she wants and you can not fall for that temptation and have that lust in your eyes. But can the Grace of God protect you from having that lust in your eyes and overcoming that sin.

God was Human And Divine. He could overcome sin by being human and he did. We can also, If we cannot control our urge to sin how are we commanded to become Saints then?

Do you not realize when you are released from that urge to not only sin, but want to sin you have by the Grace of God overcome sin.

 

[Mickey]

Being saved from Original sin means she did not have the urge to sin.

I have never seen such a definition in Roman Catholic sources.

SHe was full of the Holy Spirit which mean she had no sin and no urge to sin.

So was St John the Baptist…from the time he was in the womb. Was he spared these urgings? Was he immaculately conceived?

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be** filled with the Holy Ghost,** even from his mother’s womb.

 

[SteveGC]

In the IC Mikey. Being saved from Original sin means she did not have the urge to sin. Everything in her life was about doing the will of GOd, by her own free will.

She told you she was a handmaiden of the Lord, which means by her own free will the only URGE she had in her life was to honor Our Lord and do his will.

Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee, THEY kingdom come THY WILL BE DONE on earth as it is in heaven.

SHe was full of the Holy Spirit which mean she had no sin and no urge to sin. SHe was filled with the GRACE OF GOD. WHen you are FILLED with the grace of God there is no room for sin. Filled means complete.

As a Catholic, I’ve never heard this before. I thought she lived an ascetic life, cooperating fully with grace to avoid sin. Why would she need to cooperate if she had no urge? Seems contradictory. The IC speaks of her conception without original sin, but I didn’t think that her lack of that stain allowed there to be no future urge to sin (actual sin). Again, no urge in the conscience implies no cooperation needed…and I thought she fully and perfectly cooperated.

 

[Mickey]

As a Catholic, I’ve never heard this before. I thought she lived an ascetic life, cooperating fully with grace to avoid sin. Why would she need to cooperate if she had no urge? Seems contradictory. The IC speaks of her conception without original sin, but I didn’t think that her lack of that stain allowed there to be no future urge to sin (actual sin). Again, no urge in the conscience implies no cooperation needed…and I thought she fully and perfectly cooperated.

You are correct Steve. Rinnie is misrepresenting a doctrine she is trying to defend.

 

[rinnie]

I guess then we need to define being tempted. I can see that you are making a distinction between being tempted by the devil, and allowing oneself to fall into temptation.
My distinction is that falling into temptation is a sin, being tempted by the devil is not. And rejecting the urge to sin is different than giving into the urge.

Regards the Blessed Virgin, surely the devil tempted her. Feeling the pull of temptation is part of being human, and I have no reason to doubt that was there for her. If we assume she had free will, one would then assume she rejected that temptation.

This could not be said of the Blessed Virgin.

Jon

Then you are right and the Church is wrong and she is not sinless. SHe is tainted with the scar of Original sin and she was not saved from God at the moment of her conception from O.S. because this is not possible you are saying.

ANd she could NOT have ascended into heaven body and soul because she had the stain or original sin on her then.

Being tempted to sin does not mean you do not have the grrace from God to overcome that temptation. Then what you are saying when we are tempted we have no free will the person who tempted us has our own free will then, because they make us want to sin then, You sure underestimate the Grace of God, ANd where is it stated that the Blessed Mother ever gave into the URGE to want to sin? Time to show me that.

 

[rinnie]

As a Catholic, I’ve never heard this before. I thought she lived an ascetic life, cooperating fully with grace to avoid sin. Why would she need to cooperate if she had no urge? Seems contradictory. The IC speaks of her conception without original sin, but I didn’t think that her lack of that stain allowed there to be no future urge to sin (actual sin). Again, no urge in the conscience implies no cooperation needed…and I thought she fully and perfectly cooperated.

Because she had free will to choose to sin or not to sin. Is not the urge to want to sin the same as sinning yes or no?

ANd how could she cooperate FULLY with the Grace of God to avoid sin if she felt the urge to sin?

Explain the scripture then I asked Jon about.

 

[rinnie]

I have never seen such a definition in Roman Catholic sources.

So was St John the Baptist…from the time he was in the womb. Was he spared these urgings? Was he immaculately conceived?

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be** filled with the Holy Ghost,** even from his mother’s womb.

No, and I have always wondered about that myself. BUt there is no church doctrine that states the ST John by a SIngular Grace from God was saved from the stain of Original Sin at the moment of his conception. He had to have the stain of O.S like us.

Unless I missed the doctrine, I have never seen it. From his Mothers womb is not the MOMENT of his conception.

 

[JonNC]

=rinnie;8136404]Jon if you look at a women with lust in your eyes I tell you, you have already commited Adultery.

So you are agree looking at a women with lust is a sin, did you not already commit venial sin. IS lust for her not an urge.

Looking at her with lust is already giving into temptation.

A women can tempt you all she wants and you can not fall for that temptation and have that lust in your eyes. But can the Grace of God protect you from having that lust in your eyes and overcoming that sin.

His grace certainly can forgive me when I confess to falling into that temptation.

God was Human And Divine. He could overcome sin by being human and he did. We can also, If we cannot control our urge to sin how are we commanded to become Saints then?

By growing in grace everyday, hearing the word, and participating in the sacraments, and trusting in His mercy and forgiveness. But we must also keep in mind the fact that, “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

Jon

Do you not realize when you are released from that urge to not only sin, but want to sin you have by the Grace of God overcome sin.

 

[SteveGC]

Is not the urge to want to sin the same as sinning yes or no

No.

If I have the urge to lie in order to avoid conflict with someone, and I cooperate with grace to avoid lying, I do not sin. I think you are confusing “urge” with “consent”. Mary never conceded her will toward sin. But she likely felt the urge (or temptation) to sin.

 

[JonNC]

=rinnie;8136428]Then you are right and the Church is wrong and she is not sinless. SHe is tainted with the scar of Original sin and she was not saved from God at the moment of her conception from O.S. because this is not possible you are saying.

I think you are confusing temptation to sin, and sin itself. I haven’t said she sinned, I have said she experienced temptation to sin. Different. If she didn’t experience temptation to sin, she would not have needed grace to protect her from sin.

ANd she could NOT have ascended into heaven body and soul because she had the stain or original sin on her then.

Wait. Was Elijah protected from the stain of original sin?

Being tempted to sin does not mean you do not have the grrace from God to overcome that temptation. Then what you are saying when we are tempted we have no free will the person who tempted us has our own free will then, because they make us want to sin then, You sure underestimate the Grace of God, ANd where is it stated that the Blessed Mother ever gave into the URGE to want to sin? Time to show me that.

This is confusing, rinnie, because now you are using the language, giving into the urge to want to sin. Before you said that the urge itself was sin. Forgive me for not understanding.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

Looking at her with lust is already giving into temptation.

His grace certainly can forgive me when I confess to falling into that temptation.

By growing in grace everyday, hearing the word, and participating in the sacraments, and trusting in His mercy and forgiveness. But we must also keep in mind the fact that, “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

Jon

Do you not realize when you are released from that urge to not only sin, but want to sin you have by the Grace of God overcome sin.

Lets start back to Jesus you said that even Christ did not have the Grace to be not tempted into sin right?

 

[rinnie]

Jon let me do this another way.

Lets say you have a drinking problem. And I said hey Jon right now lets go hit the pub and have a ice cold beer, its 90 out and it would taste soooooo good. Now for you drinking has become a sin because you cannot stop.

Now you say to me oh Rin, I am TEMPTED SO tempted I want to SO BAD, I said come on, one won;t hurt you. Then you say. No Rinn, I can’t.

Do you want to Drink yes or no, or for you sin? Again do you want to? Honestly.

 

[SteveGC]

Jon let me do this another way.

Lets say you have a drinking problem. And I said hey Jon right now lets go hit the pub and have a ice cold beer, its 90 out and it would taste soooooo good. Now for you drinking has become a sin because you cannot stop.

Now you say to me oh Rin, I am TEMPTED SO tempted I want to SO BAD, I said come on, one won;t hurt you. Then you say. No Rinn, I can’t.

Do you want to Drink yes or no, or for you sin? Again do you want to? Honestly.

By denying his temptation, he does not sin. Are you trying to equate a desire to drink with looking lustfully at someone? These are not equivalent scenarios.